An employee's shift will start as soon as they are ready to perform their contractual duties. If there are any unavoidable 'set up' tasks that need to be done then they will be considered part of those contractual duties.
So if you need to change into clothes that are only provided at the workplace, or go through security, or start up a machine, then that time is included in your shift and you should be paid for it. If there are business reasons why you need to start your main duties at a certain time then obviously you need to start your shift early enough for the set up duties to be performed, but you should be paid for that time.
In the OP's case the employer is actually agreeing with this description and allowing them to have flexi-time to cover the set up time needed before they can start their main tasks. Any employer who doesn't accept them is breaking employment law and possibly minimum wage legislation.
s long as you are at your desk at the designated start time for your shift, and power on your PCs at your shift start time, then there is no case to answer. In fact your manager is treading a fine line here and leaving himself open to a grievance which would be upheld. Your manager is in the wrong here. Speak to your Union
s long as you are at your desk at the designated start time for your shift, and power on your PCs at your shift start time, then there is no case to answer. In fact your manager is treading a fine line here and leaving himself open to a grievance which would be upheld. Your manager is in the wrong here. Speak to your Union
Watch this, after just about everyone telling the OP to wise up, what are the chances that when he comes back to the thread the post above is the one he decides to follow.
Watch this, after just about everyone telling the OP to wise up, what are the chances that when he comes back to the thread the post above is the one he decides to follow.
Well the op asked for advice, it's up to him to decide what if any of the offered advice to follow. The law is clear on this issue, as has recently been upheld in the sports direct case. As I said speak to their union. I can only go by my experiences, which have proven to be quite correct, and have been upheld in tribunals and grievance procedures.
Well the op asked for advice, it's up to him to decide what if any of the offered advice to follow. The law is clear on this issue, as has recently been upheld in the sports direct case. As I said speak to their union. I can only go by my experiences, which have proven to be quite correct, and have been upheld in tribunals and grievance procedures.
This is nothing like the SD case, the OP has already started he works flexi. Keep up.
This is nothing like the SD case, the OP has already started he works flexi. Keep up.
Im keeping up fine, but thanks for your concern. I never said it was like the SD case. As long as the OP is at his desk and ready to login at his contracted start time, or if he is on a true flexi contract, no later than the start of core hours, then he is fine and not in breach of contract. If he is required to power on his pc before his contracted start time, then there is an issue, and the employer is liable to pay him for this time, or in the case of flexi, his time starts when he sits down at his desk.
Just for clarification, I'll state it again, the op should take appropriate advice from his union, acas or an employment law specialist, should he want to take this further.
I read the first few posts and thought most bonkers
Check your contract, did anyone suggest this, If you are paid between x hours and y, thats that all the work ( force x distance) you have to do
The dressing up starting computers is their time not yours
Working on some advice others have suggested starting up suggests that you at the end of hours you slap down the phone and pull the leads out of the "puter"
Im keeping up fine, but thanks for your concern. I never said it was like the SD case. As long as the OP is at his desk and ready to login at his contracted start time, or if he is on a true flexi contract, no later than the start of core hours, then he is fine and not in breach of contract. If he is required to power on his pc before his contracted start time, then there is an issue, and the employer is liable to pay him for this time, or in the case of flexi, his time starts when he sits down at his desk.
It's simple, he's required to be ready to perform his duties at the time the shift starts. Not to still be getting ready at the time the shift starts. To do so, common sense dictates he sign in prior to the start of his shift. Working time will start from the time he signs in, regardless of what time his shifts starts. So, say his shift starts at 9AM everyday, if he signs in at 8:45, the record will show he started work at 8:45, which is the time he will be getting paid from/building flexi credit. All this has already been stated, so nope you haven't been keeping up.
Just for clarification, I'll state it again, the op should take appropriate advice from his union, acas or an employment law specialist, should he want to take this further.
Issues like this are big bug bear of mine. Working in the NHS I'm expected to be on the ward at 7.30 but to be on the ward at 7.30 I've first to go to changing rooms, get changed into uniform then take the 10 minute walk to ward so that's about 7.15 I have to be at my workplace and that's before having to deal with the totally insufficient parking situation. It's another 15 minutes of my time at hometime to get back to changing rooms and changed again and we also have the issue of walking to our designated breaks area coming out of our already short break time. So of my 30 minute break only 20 minutes of that is actually sitting on my arse. 2 breaks a day means 20 minutes walking time plus the half hour changing time means I'm short changed out of 50 minutes every single day
I thought this kind of chip-on-shoulder attitude died out in the 70s.
Expecting an employee to take responsibility for ensuring they are good and ready to start work at the contracted time isn't unreasonable.
What is unreasonable is demanding employees to carry out work related tasks in their own time and not pay them for it. What's sad is that many people don't see they are being exploited, or, if they do, are too scared to do anything about it.
It all depends on what your contract of employment states. If it quotes a start time of 8am, then all time prior to that, you are not contracted to your employer - ergo: they cannot expect you to lift a finger until the dot of 8am. Legally it's as simple as that, and if you were sacked for not arriving at 7:50am, then you could rightly go for unfair dismissal. If you need preparation time in order to be up and running on the dot of 8, then your contract should state 7:50 or whatever, not 8.
We have flexi time, so exact start times aren't an issue, but it has arisen in relation to Saturday overtime where the hours are fixed from 8 till 4. Management were noting that no meaningful work was being done by some individuals until about 8:15, and launched a bit of an investigation, until it was pointed out that it takes that amount of time for the PC to boot up and the relevant applications accessed. If they wanted staff to start at 7:45, then overtime should be payable from 7:45, not 8 - eitherway, it still takes about 15 minutes to be fully up and running.
There is a bit of a fundamental disconnect here in that the OP implies that there is a fixed start (and presumably finish?) time for his job but that the team works flex-time.
Virtually everything else that has been discussed has been other posters engaging in speculation about the requirements of the OP job. Now I'm going to do it ...
If the job is such that the team have to be ready to start their operational role at a fixed time e.g. a call centre team being ready to take calls on the dot of 08.00am then there is nothing wrong in the team leader saying that he wants team members to arrive at a time to enable that to happen, say at 07.45. Under flex-time arrangements, the team would be "paid" from the time they arrive.
It's quite possible that this won't be explicitly written into the contract of employment although the ability of the team manager to determine appropriate attendance times may well be part of the agreement on flexible working hours. Different teams in the same organisation may have different attendance patterns to perform their specific role.
The OP is also implying that he is in some way making up for not being ready to start work on time by taking a shorter lunch break. Of course, that won't wash not least because he is working flex-time.
Overall I think the OP is making a complete mountain out of tiny molehill. He hasn't been "disciplined" or anything like it. He appears to have been "managed" in an entirely reasonable and sympathetic way.
This whole topic of working hours and start/finish times is one that I have strong and passionate views about; but I shall share my thoughts on this in the other topic about it in General Discussion.
As for this topic in Advice; I don't wish to alarm the OP, and I admit I may be barking up the wrong tree here, but I have to wonder whether the the employers have some concerns/doubts about the OP's overall job performance, and maybe this 'quiet word' was part of a bigger issue? In other words, reading between the lines here, I don't think they would've taken SirMick to one side over this issue if they were 100% delighted with his performance in general.
I work in a shop and your start time is the time you should be at your work station ready to begin work. You are expected to arrive on site 5/10 minutes before your start time to be ready. If you start at 6 ( the time the shop opens you have to be there 15 minutes before to open the shop, however you are only paid from 6. Same as if you work till close you are expected to stay on 10/15 mins to close the shop, also only paid till 12. Also if we are late we are not paid until the next quarter the hour. For example if you are meant to start at 9 but don't clock in till 9.01 you don't get paid till 9.15.
I work in a shop and your start time is the time you should be at your work station ready to begin work. You are expected to arrive on site 5/10 minutes before your start time to be ready. If you start at 6 ( the time the shop opens you have to be there 15 minutes before to open the shop, however you are only paid from 6. Same as if you work till close you are expected to stay on 10/15 mins to close the shop, also only paid till 12. Also if we are late we are not paid until the next quarter the hour. For example if you are meant to start at 9 but don't clock in till 9.01 you don't get paid till 9.15.
No you don't as you doing work related stuff but not getting paid, your contract to work is from 6...regardless what you employer may think, and if it is minimum wage the employer is even more outrageous.
This whole topic of working hours and start/finish times is one that I have strong and passionate views about; but I shall share my thoughts on this in the other topic about it in General Discussion.
As for this topic in Advice; I don't wish to alarm the OP, and I admit I may be barking up the wrong tree here, but I have to wonder whether the the employers have some concerns/doubts about the OP's overall job performance, and maybe this 'quiet word' was part of a bigger issue? In other words, reading between the lines here, I don't think they would've taken SirMick to one side over this issue if they were 100% delighted with his performance in general.
I may be wrong though,
Good luck OP.
You could well be right here. The OP has spoken of problems in previous jobs, I remember him posting that previous employers had spoken to him about his odd behaviour of staring at people.
So to leave at tomorrow and zero seconds when does he stop doing what he's doing and shut down the PC??
I will normally have 5 maybe 6 systems open on my pc. Would at most need any 3 open when dealing with a customer. so at 455 I will close the three down I'm not using then over the 5 minutes close the rest down. I used to do things in my own time at the end of the day but no longer as I'm no better thought of so I don't bother
Would I wait I wait until 5-10 minutes before the end of a working day to call someone about something to do with my personal situation-of course I wouldn't and people who wait till that sort of time to speak to me cant be that bothered about there own- so sadly for them neither am I..............................
I will normally have 5 maybe 6 systems open on my pc. Would at most need any 3 open when dealing with a customer. so at 455 I will close the three down I'm not using then over the 5 minutes close the rest down. I used to do things in my own time at the end of the day but no longer as I'm no better thought of so I don't bother
Would I wait I wait until 5-10 minutes before the end of a working day to call someone about something to do with my personal situation-of course I wouldn't and people who wait till that sort of time to speak to me cant be that bothered about there own- so sadly for them neither am I..............................
Neither would I. But it depends how busy the phone lines are. They could have been trying to get through all afternoon.
One thing to bear in mind is that (regardless of the rights and wrongs) in the first two years of employment it is fairly risk-free for an employer to fire someone simply for being a bit of a knobhead with a bad attitude.
Comments
So if you need to change into clothes that are only provided at the workplace, or go through security, or start up a machine, then that time is included in your shift and you should be paid for it. If there are business reasons why you need to start your main duties at a certain time then obviously you need to start your shift early enough for the set up duties to be performed, but you should be paid for that time.
In the OP's case the employer is actually agreeing with this description and allowing them to have flexi-time to cover the set up time needed before they can start their main tasks. Any employer who doesn't accept them is breaking employment law and possibly minimum wage legislation.
Watch this, after just about everyone telling the OP to wise up, what are the chances that when he comes back to the thread the post above is the one he decides to follow.
Well the op asked for advice, it's up to him to decide what if any of the offered advice to follow. The law is clear on this issue, as has recently been upheld in the sports direct case. As I said speak to their union. I can only go by my experiences, which have proven to be quite correct, and have been upheld in tribunals and grievance procedures.
Im keeping up fine, but thanks for your concern. I never said it was like the SD case. As long as the OP is at his desk and ready to login at his contracted start time, or if he is on a true flexi contract, no later than the start of core hours, then he is fine and not in breach of contract. If he is required to power on his pc before his contracted start time, then there is an issue, and the employer is liable to pay him for this time, or in the case of flexi, his time starts when he sits down at his desk.
Just for clarification, I'll state it again, the op should take appropriate advice from his union, acas or an employment law specialist, should he want to take this further.
I read the first few posts and thought most bonkers
Check your contract, did anyone suggest this, If you are paid between x hours and y, thats that all the work ( force x distance) you have to do
The dressing up starting computers is their time not yours
Working on some advice others have suggested starting up suggests that you at the end of hours you slap down the phone and pull the leads out of the "puter"
What is unreasonable is demanding employees to carry out work related tasks in their own time and not pay them for it. What's sad is that many people don't see they are being exploited, or, if they do, are too scared to do anything about it.
Most things seem to be difficult for Sir Mick judging by previous threads.
We have flexi time, so exact start times aren't an issue, but it has arisen in relation to Saturday overtime where the hours are fixed from 8 till 4. Management were noting that no meaningful work was being done by some individuals until about 8:15, and launched a bit of an investigation, until it was pointed out that it takes that amount of time for the PC to boot up and the relevant applications accessed. If they wanted staff to start at 7:45, then overtime should be payable from 7:45, not 8 - eitherway, it still takes about 15 minutes to be fully up and running.
simple
Virtually everything else that has been discussed has been other posters engaging in speculation about the requirements of the OP job. Now I'm going to do it ...
If the job is such that the team have to be ready to start their operational role at a fixed time e.g. a call centre team being ready to take calls on the dot of 08.00am then there is nothing wrong in the team leader saying that he wants team members to arrive at a time to enable that to happen, say at 07.45. Under flex-time arrangements, the team would be "paid" from the time they arrive.
It's quite possible that this won't be explicitly written into the contract of employment although the ability of the team manager to determine appropriate attendance times may well be part of the agreement on flexible working hours. Different teams in the same organisation may have different attendance patterns to perform their specific role.
The OP is also implying that he is in some way making up for not being ready to start work on time by taking a shorter lunch break. Of course, that won't wash not least because he is working flex-time.
Overall I think the OP is making a complete mountain out of tiny molehill. He hasn't been "disciplined" or anything like it. He appears to have been "managed" in an entirely reasonable and sympathetic way.
As for this topic in Advice; I don't wish to alarm the OP, and I admit I may be barking up the wrong tree here, but I have to wonder whether the the employers have some concerns/doubts about the OP's overall job performance, and maybe this 'quiet word' was part of a bigger issue? In other words, reading between the lines here, I don't think they would've taken SirMick to one side over this issue if they were 100% delighted with his performance in general.
I may be wrong though,
Good luck OP.
So to leave at tomorrow and zero seconds when does he stop doing what he's doing and shut down the PC??
No you don't as you doing work related stuff but not getting paid, your contract to work is from 6...regardless what you employer may think, and if it is minimum wage the employer is even more outrageous.
You could well be right here. The OP has spoken of problems in previous jobs, I remember him posting that previous employers had spoken to him about his odd behaviour of staring at people.
Tomorrow?? Autocorrect had a field day with that. God knows how it got tomorrow from 9am
Don't worry it altered "negligible" to "negligee" in one of my recent posts ^_^
I will normally have 5 maybe 6 systems open on my pc. Would at most need any 3 open when dealing with a customer. so at 455 I will close the three down I'm not using then over the 5 minutes close the rest down. I used to do things in my own time at the end of the day but no longer as I'm no better thought of so I don't bother
Would I wait I wait until 5-10 minutes before the end of a working day to call someone about something to do with my personal situation-of course I wouldn't and people who wait till that sort of time to speak to me cant be that bothered about there own- so sadly for them neither am I..............................
Neither would I. But it depends how busy the phone lines are. They could have been trying to get through all afternoon.
Know what you mean but our busiest times are 200-330 and its Very unlikely someone calling at 450 would have been trying all afternoon