The EU was created to prevserve peace and stablity across Europe, in other words never again would democracy be under threat in Europe.
I agree the current system is not perfect and that is why I suggested Europe should become a Federal Europe and adopt the US model...
The EU is a threat to peace. Especially in southern Europe. And the EU has done sweet FA to stop a war in Europe. That has been Nato lead by the US and UK.
Heath won an election in 1970 on a clear manifesto statement to negotiate with the EEC on the UK's terms of entry only. He also unequivocally stated that the UK would not be taken into the EEC without the overwhelming approval of the people. He also stated that the vote on entry would be a matter of conscience for MPs and would not be either a whipped vote or a vote of confidence.
Now the people were never asked before entry. Entry was gained by hard line whipping of MPs and the admitted connivance of Labour MPs who were absent as agreed during critical votes. Some aspects of the Bill were only passed by the narrowest of margins and were a great distance from the overwhelming approval of the people.
However new terms where agreed, the House of Commons voted 390 to 170 to accept those new terms for EEC membership and 67.23% voted to remain (in a 65% turnout) (only Shetland and the Western Isle voted to not join)
The EU is a threat to peace. Especially in southern Europe. And the EU has done sweet FA to stop a war in Europe. That has been Nato lead by the US and UK.
UK doesn't have much say in NATO. UK is just sucking up to America. NATO is in reality an american military organization.
The EU is a threat to peace. Especially in southern Europe. And the EU has done sweet FA to stop a war in Europe. That has been Nato lead by the US and UK.
The EEC/EC/EU has allowed for Inter-European co-operation, espcially with France and Germany and Britain...
Also the siutation in Southern Europe cannot be fixed until Free-Market Capitalism is no longer the economic model used in those countries, as well as more European Intergration, it was stupid to have 1 currency for a dozen different economies...
The EU is a threat to peace. Especially in southern Europe. And the EU has done sweet FA to stop a war in Europe. That has been Nato lead by the US and UK.
So you don't think deeply intertwining the economies of Europe's biggest and most war prone states in history (Britain, France, Germany) had anything to do with the long and historic peace that has existed across western Europe since 1945?
OK but virtually every historian and IR graduate would disagree with you.
If current events in Ukraine had happened 100 years ago the whole of Europe would be at war by now.
So you don't think deeply intertwining the economies of Europe's biggest and most war prone states in history (Britain, France, Germany) had anything to do with the long and historic peace that has existed across western Europe since 1945?
OK but virtually every historian and IR graduate would disagree with you.
If current events in Ukraine had happened 100 years ago the whole of Europe would be at war by now.
Well said! The EU needs people more like yourself and less people like Clegg to make the case for not leaving...
Clegg always puts a good argument.
It is the left and right herding the sheep.
Labour certainly thinks it does not need economic policies when its flock prefers to stay in the pen. And the Tories, well I imagine they can get 10's of millions in donations by turning a blind eye to those 10's, maybe 100's of billions lost in corporation tax.
That maybe already puts them on a par with leaving Europe.
Clegg has currently got the popularity of Judas, if he chose a supply and confidence agreement (so that he can only vote for policies the LD have in common with the Tories) he would not have this problem...
Labour certainly thinks it does not need economic policies when its flock prefers to stay in the pen. And the Tories, well I imagine they can get 10's of millions in donations by turning a blind eye to those 10's, maybe 100's of billions lost in corporation tax.
That maybe already puts them on a par with leaving Europe.
Very well said! ;-) This is something I strong agree with...
Well said! The EU needs people more like yourself and less people like Clegg to make the case for not leaving...
ok, so here's a question.... if the UK decides to leave the EU, will you happily jump on a plane and emigrate to another EU country before we leave, so you can remain in the utopian world that you wish to live in?
the EU represents a threat to the nationality and the history of 28 separate countries - there is major protectionist movements in France and Germany to prevent the EU "taking away" their history, no-one will wake up one day in France and think "I live in Europe, I just happen to have a home in a small city called Paris, in a small state called France....", they want to remain a "nation" of their own with their own history intact, but they'll be happy to lead Europe as long as France doesn't "lose" it's history. Same with Germany!
the EU was originally designed to create a new nation called Europe - that is the end game and that is right there in the original treaty texts, but what they fail to understand is the people who live in the 28 nations do not WANT this, why would I (an Englishman) want to give up my nationality and my history to live in some new country called Europe?
Britain has always been a world leader, and we're not a military might any more (because we spend £30m a day on the EU) but if we left the EU, in the first year's worth of "savings" from our national contributions, we would be able to afford 4 air craft carriers, not 2, and we would be able to maintain and afford a standing army to the same level as that in WW2.
why does Britain need Europe to secure it's future in the world? actually what Europe needs is Britain - we have the Commonwealth to revert back to, no other European nation has a similar option so the rest of Europe needs the EU to secure their own futures in the world - Spain has limited options with the Spanish speaking southern American countries, and France has zero options on the world stage as Quebec isn't enough of a political force within Canada to encourage a relationship with France over Britain, and Germany..... let's not go there!
so.... why does Britain "need" Europe and the EU? we have no common language, no common history or common values with Europe, but we do with America, Australia, Canada, India, South Africa & New Zealand so why don't we forge our relationships with countries who will be a viable partnership in the long term future?
Clegg has currently got the popularity of Jesus, if he chose a supply and confidence agreement (so that he can only vote for policies the LD have in common with the Tories) he would not have this problem...
Very well said! ;-) This is something I strong agree with...
ok, so here's a question.... if the UK decides to leave the EU, will you happily jump on a plane and emigrate to another EU country before we leave, so you can remain in the utopian world that you wish to live in?
the EU represents a threat to the nationality and the history of 28 separate countries - there is major protectionist movements in France and Germany to prevent the EU "taking away" their history, no-one will wake up one day in France and think "I live in Europe, I just happen to have a home in a small city called Paris, in a small state called France....", they want to remain a "nation" of their own with their own history intact, but they'll be happy to lead Europe as long as France doesn't "lose" it's history. Same with Germany!
the EU was originally designed to create a new nation called Europe - that is the end game and that is right there in the original treaty texts, but what they fail to understand is the people who live in the 28 nations do not WANT this, why would I (an Englishman) want to give up my nationality and my history to live in some new country called Europe?
Britain has always been a world leader, and we're not a military might any more (because we spend £30m a day on the EU) but if we left the EU, in the first year's worth of "savings" from our national contributions, we would be able to afford 4 air craft carriers, not 2, and we would be able to maintain and afford a standing army to the same level as that in WW2.
why does Britain need Europe to secure it's future in the world? actually what Europe needs is Britain - we have the Commonwealth to revert back to, no other European nation has a similar option so the rest of Europe needs the EU to secure their own futures in the world - Spain has limited options with the Spanish speaking southern American countries, and France has zero options on the world stage as Quebec isn't enough of a political force within Canada to encourage a relationship with France over Britain, and Germany..... let's not go there!
so.... why does Britain "need" Europe and the EU? we have no common language, no common history or common values with Europe, but we do with America, Australia, Canada, India, South Africa & New Zealand so why don't we forge our relationships with countries who will be a viable partnership in the long term future?
How can history be "taken away"? It's impossible. It's just a feeble excuse that conservatives use to try and prevent change ever happening.
ok, so here's a question.... if the UK decides to leave the EU, will you happily jump on a plane and emigrate to another EU country before we leave, so you can remain in the utopian world that you wish to live in?
No, I would focus on a Federal Anglosphere/Commonwealth, which is even harder to do than a Federal Europe.
We do not live in a utopian world, as my other comments state...
there is major protectionist movements in France and Germany to prevent the EU "taking away" their history, no-one will wake up one day in France and think "I live in Europe, I just happen to have a home in a small city called Paris, in a small state called France....", they want to remain a "nation" of their own with their own history intact, but they'll be happy to lead Europe as long as France doesn't "lose" it's history. Same with Germany!
You call a body which has done a lot of FTA with other nations as protectionist, many would diagree, even those who want to leave the EU...
Germany has a mixed views on their history, which is not suprising, they have learnt nationalism does not give them anything to gain...
the EU was originally designed to create a new nation called Europe - that is the end game and that is right there in the original treaty texts, but what they fail to understand is the people who live in the 28 nations do not WANT this, why would I (an Englishman) want to give up my nationality and my history to live in some new country called Europe?
Well considering the fact the whole region has been at war with each other to the point of desruction, is that such a bad thing? I agree a Federal Europe is the end game, but it does not say there would be a destruction of a English Indentity, just like the fact there is still a strong Texan indentity despite being part of the USA for Centuries...
Not trie, it become one after the Seven Years War, the rise of our Empire and the indusrial revolution, we have not been a world leader since WW2 and perhaps even earlier than that...
and we would be able to maintain and afford a standing army to the same level as that in WW2.
The combined British Army + Commonwealth Army + Empire (India + Africa etc.) Army was over 7.9 million, (7 million in the army alone) now I would love to see it, but I doubt we could really afford it on our own...
so.... why does Britain "need" Europe and the EU? we have no common language, no common history or common values with Europe, but we do with America, Australia, Canada, India, South Africa & New Zealand so why don't we forge our relationships with countries who will be a viable partnership in the long term future?
I would like to see a Federal Anglosphere/Commonwealth, the question is how would be it done, it would be very hard to do...
Besides I thought one of the main reasons for leaving was to help the working man?
Yet again your lack of poltical knowlage is showing...
Lol. Are there no working women in Europe? Rather sexist. And my political knowledge is fine thanks. I'm a guy and even I know women make up more than half of the population.
Lol. Are there no working women in Europe? Rather sexist. And my political knowledge is fine thanks. I'm a guy and even I know women make up more than half of the population.
Yet again you nitpick, I was going to say working class, but that is not relevent these days. Acutally you know what I will say it...
Let me ask you the question again
Is one of the reasons why we should leave so that its helps the working class?
and yet you call me a lefty!
I have shown your lack of poltical knowledge several times...
Comments
The US was put together on the basis of freedom and democracy with the will of the people. The EU is not. Is it that hard to understand?
I do more than address your points. And I assumed when you said the RU you meant Russia.
I was talking about that post, to be fair you do most of the time and that is a good thing ;-) Shame warlord diagrees...
The EU was created to prevserve peace and stablity across Europe, in other words never again would democracy be under threat in Europe.
I agree the current system is not perfect and that is why I suggested Europe should become a Federal Europe and adopt the US model...
The EU is a threat to peace. Especially in southern Europe. And the EU has done sweet FA to stop a war in Europe. That has been Nato lead by the US and UK.
However new terms where agreed, the House of Commons voted 390 to 170 to accept those new terms for EEC membership and 67.23% voted to remain (in a 65% turnout) (only Shetland and the Western Isle voted to not join)
Overall there should another vote though...
UK doesn't have much say in NATO. UK is just sucking up to America. NATO is in reality an american military organization.
The EEC/EC/EU has allowed for Inter-European co-operation, espcially with France and Germany and Britain...
Also the siutation in Southern Europe cannot be fixed until Free-Market Capitalism is no longer the economic model used in those countries, as well as more European Intergration, it was stupid to have 1 currency for a dozen different economies...
Glad someone agrees, although It is not as bad as that, but the basics are true...
So you don't think deeply intertwining the economies of Europe's biggest and most war prone states in history (Britain, France, Germany) had anything to do with the long and historic peace that has existed across western Europe since 1945?
OK but virtually every historian and IR graduate would disagree with you.
If current events in Ukraine had happened 100 years ago the whole of Europe would be at war by now.
Well said! The EU needs people more like yourself and less people like Clegg to make the case for not leaving...
It is the left and right herding the sheep.
Labour certainly thinks it does not need economic policies when its flock prefers to stay in the pen. And the Tories, well I imagine they can get 10's of millions in donations by turning a blind eye to those 10's, maybe 100's of billions lost in corporation tax.
That maybe already puts them on a par with leaving Europe.
Clegg has currently got the popularity of Judas, if he chose a supply and confidence agreement (so that he can only vote for policies the LD have in common with the Tories) he would not have this problem...
Very well said! ;-) This is something I strong agree with...
ok, so here's a question.... if the UK decides to leave the EU, will you happily jump on a plane and emigrate to another EU country before we leave, so you can remain in the utopian world that you wish to live in?
the EU represents a threat to the nationality and the history of 28 separate countries - there is major protectionist movements in France and Germany to prevent the EU "taking away" their history, no-one will wake up one day in France and think "I live in Europe, I just happen to have a home in a small city called Paris, in a small state called France....", they want to remain a "nation" of their own with their own history intact, but they'll be happy to lead Europe as long as France doesn't "lose" it's history. Same with Germany!
the EU was originally designed to create a new nation called Europe - that is the end game and that is right there in the original treaty texts, but what they fail to understand is the people who live in the 28 nations do not WANT this, why would I (an Englishman) want to give up my nationality and my history to live in some new country called Europe?
Britain has always been a world leader, and we're not a military might any more (because we spend £30m a day on the EU) but if we left the EU, in the first year's worth of "savings" from our national contributions, we would be able to afford 4 air craft carriers, not 2, and we would be able to maintain and afford a standing army to the same level as that in WW2.
why does Britain need Europe to secure it's future in the world? actually what Europe needs is Britain - we have the Commonwealth to revert back to, no other European nation has a similar option so the rest of Europe needs the EU to secure their own futures in the world - Spain has limited options with the Spanish speaking southern American countries, and France has zero options on the world stage as Quebec isn't enough of a political force within Canada to encourage a relationship with France over Britain, and Germany..... let's not go there!
so.... why does Britain "need" Europe and the EU? we have no common language, no common history or common values with Europe, but we do with America, Australia, Canada, India, South Africa & New Zealand so why don't we forge our relationships with countries who will be a viable partnership in the long term future?
Blimey. It's like the reincarnation of Karl Marx.
How come?
With you two lefties babbling away Lol.
How can history be "taken away"? It's impossible. It's just a feeble excuse that conservatives use to try and prevent change ever happening.
Because the EUSSR elite hate the nation state and want to erase all mention of it to create their European dream ™.
No, I would focus on a Federal Anglosphere/Commonwealth, which is even harder to do than a Federal Europe.
We do not live in a utopian world, as my other comments state...
So you would rather be a vassal state insted? I am proud of being British, but I am ashamed of the fact we are not a free nation...
You call a body which has done a lot of FTA with other nations as protectionist, many would diagree, even those who want to leave the EU...
Germany has a mixed views on their history, which is not suprising, they have learnt nationalism does not give them anything to gain...
Well considering the fact the whole region has been at war with each other to the point of desruction, is that such a bad thing? I agree a Federal Europe is the end game, but it does not say there would be a destruction of a English Indentity, just like the fact there is still a strong Texan indentity despite being part of the USA for Centuries...
Not trie, it become one after the Seven Years War, the rise of our Empire and the indusrial revolution, we have not been a world leader since WW2 and perhaps even earlier than that...
Along with vast amounts of tax evasion and avoidance!
Have you looked at this?
http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showpost.php?p=72658057&postcount=135
We can afford it now if we had proper tax enforcement, besides you need to something like 10 to be a major naval power, along with much more elsewhere
The combined British Army + Commonwealth Army + Empire (India + Africa etc.) Army was over 7.9 million, (7 million in the army alone) now I would love to see it, but I doubt we could really afford it on our own...
Well because we are already intergrated with them...
Well apart from France to a lesser extent...
Apart from in Africa...
They do well in busines despite never really having a major colonial empire for long...
I would like to see a Federal Anglosphere/Commonwealth, the question is how would be it done, it would be very hard to do...
Many lefties would want to leave the EU...
Besides I thought one of the main reasons for leaving was to help the working man?
Yet again your lack of poltical knowlage is showing...
Last time I checked they have not banned English or murdered Brits to achive their goals...
The people of Texas have retained their indentity while being part of the USA, if it is good enough for them it is good enough for us...
Lol. Are there no working women in Europe? Rather sexist. And my political knowledge is fine thanks. I'm a guy and even I know women make up more than half of the population.
The US is one country. The EU isn't. Not comaparable in the slightest.
Yet again you nitpick, I was going to say working class, but that is not relevent these days. Acutally you know what I will say it...
Let me ask you the question again
Is one of the reasons why we should leave so that its helps the working class?
and yet you call me a lefty!
I have shown your lack of poltical knowledge several times...