Though that wouldn't necessarily imply a huge degree of guilt on his part. People will always temper their comments depending on the company they're keeping.....it still doesn't mean that he is a full blown racist, more that he knew he was using a politically incorrect or possibly offensive phrase.
Yes.
The fact that what he said could have given offence could have just occurred to him then for the first time. I don't think Paul is a racist - if he hadn't felt so backed into a corner he'd have probably apologised straightaway
Paul in the pub with lloyd... a classic case of things being blown out of proportion, but not only that - people backing Lloyd for the sake of it - not because they believed it, but because they had to, otherwise they too would be classed as a racist.
It really shows anybody up who took offence to it, it really does.
I really hope they don't drag this storyline out. Paul clearly isn't a racist and you can imagine why he would be a bit miffed at being called one. Yes, what he said was wrong and he shouldn't have said it but being branded a racist over it is a bit much!
My father, who was brought up in London in the post war era, has used this expression regularly over the years, so am I very familiar with it and its meaning - being fair / playing by the rules. I really do not think that my dad is in any way a racist and would be quite upset to be confronted in such a way, as Paul was in the pub, but would merely use the expression without thinking of the connotations. I, however, despite being familiar with the expression, wouldn't dream of using it, as I have been brought up in a different era and would know what it is implying.
What I'm really trying to say is that people of a certain generation would use the phrase without even thinking of what it really meant and certainly without wanting to offend anyone.
I also concur with something that someone else said on here and that is I find it very hard to believe that in an area like where Coronation Street is set, there would have been so many people who were affronted by the comment.
My father, who was brought up in London in the post war era, has used this expression regularly over the years, so am I very familiar with it and its meaning - being fair / playing by the rules. I really do not think that my dad is in any way a racist and would be quite upset to be confronted in such a way, as Paul was in the pub, but would merely use the expression without thinking of the connotations. I, however, despite being familiar with the expression, wouldn't dream of using it, as I have been brought up in a different era and would know what it is implying.
What I'm really trying to say is that people of a certain generation would use the phrase without even thinking of what it really meant and certainly without wanting to offend anyone.
I also concur with something that someone else said on here and that is I find it very hard to believe that in an area like where Coronation Street is set, there would have been so many people who were affronted by the comment.
I do believe in those days it was 'ok' to use such language to differentiate between the what was considered a more superior white person and a second class person ...they considered to be black. After all in those days they thought it ok to have signs on shops etc that stated no blacks allowed. Of course such differentiation and exclusion wasn't, isn't and never will be ok. In this day and age people should know this.
That's the problem though- you said it yourself he was IGNORANT of the original meaning- casual racism.
In the wrong or not, he should have just apologised.
He did, didn't he? And Lloyd refused to accept the apology?
Though quite what else Lloyd would like to happen from this, I've no idea.
Incidentally, one of Kipling's poems gives an interesting insight into the perceived relationship between whites and blacks a hundred years ago:
What planet do YOU live on? I've never heard that word used as anything but an insult. And if a person is offended, then you've been offensive, whatever your intention.
You haven't listened to any hip hop/rap music then,, artists like Jay Z and snoop dog refer to themselves and their friends as n#@*rs in most of their songs.
What planet do YOU live on? I've never heard that word used as anything but an insult. And if a person is offended, then you've been offensive, whatever your intention.
There are many occasions when the word used to be used with no insult involved : a colour, the name of a famous dog, in a picking rhyme, as a 'countdown' rhyme, a book, a play.
(The latter was changed to 'Ten Little I*****s', which didn't go down too well a bit later, so I think it's now "And Then There Were None - which just refers back to the countdown rhyme, anyway).
If a person is offended, then they may well regard the other party a having been offensive, but that doesn't make it so.
Consider the case of a foreigner, struggling with English (am I still allowed to say that?) who uses completely the wrong word accidentally... is he being offensive?
Sorry, that should be "he or she" .... hope I didn't offend anyone.
And of course the whole street will get on their high horse because they have nothing else to do. When was the last time we have actually seen Brian or Lloyd interact? You'd think Paul went out his way to racially abuse Lloyd in the public.
And where is the bet the kids Paul yelled at or talked about happen to be black or another race as well. And his boss will probably call round and discover Paul is a "racist". :rolleyes:
You've got to laff at the Rover's clientele appearing shocked at this statement - I mean not one of them hasn't aired their dirty linen in public. We then get Saint Eileen who jumped all over Tyrone not believing he was innocent but then didn't like it when Jason had a taste of being wrongly accused. They've all jumped all over this quicker than a hooker on a £50 note - pathetic. It should be left between the two men in question
The fact that what he said could have given offence could have just occurred to him then for the first time. I don't think Paul is a racist - if he hadn't felt so backed into a corner he'd have probably apologised straightaway
I do agree that he said sorry in a way immediately but unfortunately it just added fuel to the fire as 'Sorry I didn't see you there' did imply that it would have been okay to make a comment many would deem racist provided there were no black people around which I can see would not be sufficient for them. It is not dis-similar to someone saying 'I'm sorry you feel that way' - it implies that the other person's reaction to whatever you have done is the problem rather than the initial action.
I do also agree that he would have apologised more profusely having realised quite how upset Lloyd and Jenna were if Lloyd hadn't accused him of Racism and he hadn't had other people in the Pub rounding on him as well. At that point, there was a bit of a pack mentality going on and he will have felt backed into a corner so pride and stubbornness (plus the very understandable concern of not wanting it to seem like he was admitting to Racism) took over.
And of course the whole street will get on their high horse because they have nothing else to do. When was the last time we have actually seen Brian or Lloyd interact? You'd think Paul went out his way to racially abuse Lloyd in the public.
And where is the bet the kids Paul yelled at or talked about happen to be black or another race as well. And his boss will probably call round and discover Paul is a "racist". :rolleyes:
I suspect that Brian's lines were originally intended for Ken but I found them believable for Brian. Given his job, he has probably been sent on all sorts of courses and will be hyper aware of what to look out for to ensure that bigotry doesn't get used as a part of bullying in the school playground, or even that a kid doesn't just repeat what their parents say without understanding it. He has probably has a lesson plan on it and a copy of the Education Authority's policy on Racial Discrimination in his briefcase!
Not that Paul would've realised, nor did he mean it this context - he meant it in a racial context - but the term "play the white man" historically comes from silent films when good guys were dressed in white. It's obviously been hijacked by racists, but still worth pointing out.
Either way: the main problem with this s/l is that (a) the wouldn't be that kind of uproar in a backstreet Salford boozer, rightly or wrongly, and also if Paul and Lloyd were such good mates Paul would immediately have said "I'm really sorry mate, my mistake" etc etc etc.
Paul's a pointless character in a pointless storyline.
Not that Paul would've realised, nor did he mean it this context - he meant it in a racial context - but the term "play the white man" historically comes from silent films when good guys were dressed in white. It's obviously been hijacked by racists, but still worth pointing out.
Either way: the main problem with this s/l is that (a) the wouldn't be that kind of uproar in a backstreet Salford boozer, rightly or wrongly, and also if Paul and Lloyd were such good mates Paul would immediately have said "I'm really sorry mate, my mistake" etc etc etc.
Paul's a pointless character in a pointless storyline.
That is not entirely true - it's origins are older than that, back to the days of the British Empire and Colonialism.
Play the white man is a term used in parts of England meaning to be decent and trustworthy in one's actions. The origin of the phrase is obscure. The term carries with it a reference to an obligation which many English civil administrators in the latter years of the British Empire might have considered themselves to be under: that is, the obligation to uphold respect for their county abroad by maintaining personal standards of behaviour and fairness which darker-skinned native peoples could respect. The act of calling upon someone to remember his personal moral obligations in this way is expressed in Rudyard Kipling's poem The White Man's Burden. On the other hand, the racially neutral colour white has long been associated with pureness and virtue. A similar expression in the United States is "That's mighty white of you", meaning, "Thank you for being fair". Among African Americans, this phrase is said in response to being patronized or told what to think.
That is part of the problem, that people know 2 different histories - one of which is offensive and one of which isn't but the fact that Paul immediately said 'Sorry, didn't see you there' implies that he did know the offensive Racist reading.
Though it has to be said, that the old movie term tended to be 'White Hat' rather than 'White Man' which is very different.
That is not entirely true - it's origins are older than that, back to the days of the British Empire and Colonialism where it did mean that the British officers were fairer minded than the Natives (generally non White) that they were subduing or ruling over.
That is part of the problem, that people know 2 different histories - one of which is offensive and one of which isn't but the fact that Paul immediately said 'Sorry, didn't see you there' implies that he did know the offensive Racist reading.
Though it has to be said, that the old movie term tended to be 'White Hat' rather than 'White Man' which is very different.
We know that he knows the phrase to be potentially offensive, but we have absolutely no idea whether he is actually a racist or not even though he used it (from his reaction, it would appear he isn't one as he seems mortified and angry at the suggestion)
We know that he knows the phrase to be potentially offensive, but we have absolutely no idea whether he is actually a racist or not even though he used it (from his reaction, it would appear he isn't one as he seems mortified and angry at the suggestion)
I personally don't think that he is a 'full' or even close to racist - I've said so a couple of times. He is clearly horrified at the idea, as I say I'm sure that he wouldn't prioritise saving a White person over one of a different race in a fire, or support the EDL or BNP and indeed would probably have baulked at dating someone with a mixed race child but the fact that he did use a phrase which he knew has Racial connotations (and seems to think is okay to use provided there are no black people there to take offence) does cast an ugly shadow over his character. I think that is the point of the storyline, it is subconscious, ingrained, subtle (perhaps from his upbringing with his father)racism and the dangers of not thinking before you speak.
I do feel sorry for him as it just slipped out and Lloyd made such a big deal out of it (to support his daughter) that he got backed into a corner but the fact that he knew it was offensive and said it anyway, albeit without thinking, is difficult to ignore.
I'm not sure that the whole Pub erupted at him - really it was just Lloyd and Jenna, then Lloyd's best friend Steve who was in the middle of it so didn't have much of a choice and Brian who is a bit of a nosey parker and maybe PC because of his profession. Jason, who of course would also be an interested party as his near stepson and also mixed race kept as quiet as he could until directly challenged and Gloria just didn't want trouble in the pub and couldn't see what the fuss was about anyway.
What planet do YOU live on? I've never heard that word used as anything but an insult. And if a person is offended, then you've been offensive, whatever your intention.
Comments
Yes.
The fact that what he said could have given offence could have just occurred to him then for the first time. I don't think Paul is a racist - if he hadn't felt so backed into a corner he'd have probably apologised straightaway
To suggest that white people are fairer than black is a nonsense!
What I'm really trying to say is that people of a certain generation would use the phrase without even thinking of what it really meant and certainly without wanting to offend anyone.
I also concur with something that someone else said on here and that is I find it very hard to believe that in an area like where Coronation Street is set, there would have been so many people who were affronted by the comment.
I do believe in those days it was 'ok' to use such language to differentiate between the what was considered a more superior white person and a second class person ...they considered to be black. After all in those days they thought it ok to have signs on shops etc that stated no blacks allowed. Of course such differentiation and exclusion wasn't, isn't and never will be ok. In this day and age people should know this.
He did, didn't he? And Lloyd refused to accept the apology?
Though quite what else Lloyd would like to happen from this, I've no idea.
Incidentally, one of Kipling's poems gives an interesting insight into the perceived relationship between whites and blacks a hundred years ago:
http://www.kipling.org.uk/poems_burden.htm
You haven't listened to any hip hop/rap music then,, artists like Jay Z and snoop dog refer to themselves and their friends as n#@*rs in most of their songs.
There are many occasions when the word used to be used with no insult involved : a colour, the name of a famous dog, in a picking rhyme, as a 'countdown' rhyme, a book, a play.
(The latter was changed to 'Ten Little I*****s', which didn't go down too well a bit later, so I think it's now "And Then There Were None - which just refers back to the countdown rhyme, anyway).
If a person is offended, then they may well regard the other party a having been offensive, but that doesn't make it so.
Consider the case of a foreigner, struggling with English (am I still allowed to say that?) who uses completely the wrong word accidentally... is he being offensive?
Sorry, that should be "he or she" .... hope I didn't offend anyone.
Now it looks like
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
And where is the bet the kids Paul yelled at or talked about happen to be black or another race as well. And his boss will probably call round and discover Paul is a "racist". :rolleyes:
I do agree that he said sorry in a way immediately but unfortunately it just added fuel to the fire as 'Sorry I didn't see you there' did imply that it would have been okay to make a comment many would deem racist provided there were no black people around which I can see would not be sufficient for them. It is not dis-similar to someone saying 'I'm sorry you feel that way' - it implies that the other person's reaction to whatever you have done is the problem rather than the initial action.
I do also agree that he would have apologised more profusely having realised quite how upset Lloyd and Jenna were if Lloyd hadn't accused him of Racism and he hadn't had other people in the Pub rounding on him as well. At that point, there was a bit of a pack mentality going on and he will have felt backed into a corner so pride and stubbornness (plus the very understandable concern of not wanting it to seem like he was admitting to Racism) took over.
I suspect that Brian's lines were originally intended for Ken but I found them believable for Brian. Given his job, he has probably been sent on all sorts of courses and will be hyper aware of what to look out for to ensure that bigotry doesn't get used as a part of bullying in the school playground, or even that a kid doesn't just repeat what their parents say without understanding it. He has probably has a lesson plan on it and a copy of the Education Authority's policy on Racial Discrimination in his briefcase!
If he hadn't tried to claim the game when the dart (eventually) fell out, the fireman wouldn't have said the offending phrase.
Either way: the main problem with this s/l is that (a) the wouldn't be that kind of uproar in a backstreet Salford boozer, rightly or wrongly, and also if Paul and Lloyd were such good mates Paul would immediately have said "I'm really sorry mate, my mistake" etc etc etc.
Paul's a pointless character in a pointless storyline.
That is not entirely true - it's origins are older than that, back to the days of the British Empire and Colonialism.
Definition from http://www.definitions.net/definition/play+the+white+man
1.Play the white man
Play the white man is a term used in parts of England meaning to be decent and trustworthy in one's actions. The origin of the phrase is obscure. The term carries with it a reference to an obligation which many English civil administrators in the latter years of the British Empire might have considered themselves to be under: that is, the obligation to uphold respect for their county abroad by maintaining personal standards of behaviour and fairness which darker-skinned native peoples could respect. The act of calling upon someone to remember his personal moral obligations in this way is expressed in Rudyard Kipling's poem The White Man's Burden. On the other hand, the racially neutral colour white has long been associated with pureness and virtue. A similar expression in the United States is "That's mighty white of you", meaning, "Thank you for being fair". Among African Americans, this phrase is said in response to being patronized or told what to think.
That is part of the problem, that people know 2 different histories - one of which is offensive and one of which isn't but the fact that Paul immediately said 'Sorry, didn't see you there' implies that he did know the offensive Racist reading.
Though it has to be said, that the old movie term tended to be 'White Hat' rather than 'White Man' which is very different.
We know that he knows the phrase to be potentially offensive, but we have absolutely no idea whether he is actually a racist or not even though he used it (from his reaction, it would appear he isn't one as he seems mortified and angry at the suggestion)
I don't.
I personally don't think that he is a 'full' or even close to racist - I've said so a couple of times. He is clearly horrified at the idea, as I say I'm sure that he wouldn't prioritise saving a White person over one of a different race in a fire, or support the EDL or BNP and indeed would probably have baulked at dating someone with a mixed race child but the fact that he did use a phrase which he knew has Racial connotations (and seems to think is okay to use provided there are no black people there to take offence) does cast an ugly shadow over his character. I think that is the point of the storyline, it is subconscious, ingrained, subtle (perhaps from his upbringing with his father)racism and the dangers of not thinking before you speak.
I do feel sorry for him as it just slipped out and Lloyd made such a big deal out of it (to support his daughter) that he got backed into a corner but the fact that he knew it was offensive and said it anyway, albeit without thinking, is difficult to ignore.
I'm not sure that the whole Pub erupted at him - really it was just Lloyd and Jenna, then Lloyd's best friend Steve who was in the middle of it so didn't have much of a choice and Brian who is a bit of a nosey parker and maybe PC because of his profession. Jason, who of course would also be an interested party as his near stepson and also mixed race kept as quiet as he could until directly challenged and Gloria just didn't want trouble in the pub and couldn't see what the fuss was about anyway.
You mustn't listen to much rap music