I stated unless your disability is the result of someone else's negligence, then its no one else's fault that you have that disability or health problem.
I don't have any problem providing people with the help they need with their ill health.
I don't have a problem with any of the benefits given to people that need help.
What I do have a problem with is people thinking they have a god given right to that help.
How do you know people think they have a god given right to that help?
The extreme right-wing ideology on display: basically you are 100% responsible for everything that occurs in your life. Your income, your health, even your own disability.
This is the sort of thinking that turns a country socialist!
History has shown this, the public are going to say "socialism isn't half bad after all...."
I'm thinking 2018/2019
I don't think it will happen. People like earning money too much and those at the bottom of the pile are less likely to vote.
I stated unless your disability is the result of someone else's negligence, then its no one else's fault that you have that disability or health problem.
I don't have any problem providing people with the help they need with their ill health.
I don't have a problem with any of the benefits given to people that need help.
What I do have a problem with is people thinking they have a god given right to that help.
Well your post certainly implied it can only be the persons fault for being sick as someone must be at fault . your not sick when your run over by a bus that's why I asked for clarification.
It's not a matter for god to decide if people are entitled to medical treatment. so yes people have the right to demand medical care when they are sick.
It's a simple step from there to having aspirations, and the extreme left don't like people getting above themsleves
Good point. It's the thin end of the wedge. We can't have the plebs thinking for themselves can we? Before you know it they'll be existing outside the structure of the all encompassing state. It'll be anarchy.:D
Well your post certainly implied it can only be the persons fault for being sick as someone must be at fault . your not sick when your run over by a bus that's why I asked for clarification.
It's not a matter for god to decide if people are entitled to medical treatment. so yes people have the right to demand medical care when they are sick.
People have the right to demand free bacon for breakfast, but they may not get it.
A medical service needs hospitals, doctors and nurses, which all cost money, so it cannot be "free". It can be paid for in the same way we pay hotel bills, it can be paid for by medical insurance, or it can be funded by taxes. Back in 1945, we decided on a state monopoly funded by taxes, but no other country has chosen to copy that approach. Meanwhile, even the Labour party has come to realise that a state monopoly making cars or digging coal out of the ground is not something we should go back to.
What's so wrong about taking responsibility for yourself?
Nothing of course. But unfortunately, there is a growing culture of taking a back seat in your own life and letting the state take care of it for you. Very few people aspire to anything these days, and often find themselves in positions that were always pushed into being.
Don't get me wrong, things like health care can be looked at one of two ways. The NHS is a hugely important establishment in this country and it's something for better or worse, we should be proud of. But she's becoming unsustainable so something has to be done (I'd start with middle management myself).
Also another state dependency often comes in the form of employment. There are far too many people in far too many places who are in public sector positions (I think Glasgow for example is a big example of this).
My point is, there are far too many people who see life in general as being too hard to deal with.
Yes of course people should look after their health, but saying that doesn't absolve the government from there responsibility to provide health care.
I agree. However. The state should be the fallback position and a temporary one at that. It shouldn't be the way of life. A person needs to take responsibility for their own actions first and foremost.
I agree. However. The state should be the fallback position and a temporary one at that. It shouldn't be the way of life. A person needs to take responsibility for their own actions first and foremost.
Pretty much. I have no qualms with the government acting as a sort of "safety net", but at the same time even that will be open to abuse by those who choose to.
I agree. However. The state should be the fallback position and a temporary one at that. It shouldn't be the way of life. A person needs to take responsibility for their own actions first and foremost.
I agree people should take care of their health but that's a completely different point.
There seems to be a a very dangerous logic here that when somebody is ill then it must be someones fault.
Collectively many more people voted for centre left parties than for the Tories at the last General Election and the one before that too in 2010. Considering that UKIP must have gained around 2 Million centre left voters too, I'd say the centre left voters still number well over 15 Million people and probably closer to 17 Million.
(In 2010, well over 15 Million people voted for centre left parties, probably over 16 Million)
The problem is, the centre left vote is split into many different parties where the Tories are the only main right wing party. UKIP don't count as a right wing party as they have been targetting and succeeding in getting Labour voters.
This is why the leadership candidates for the Labour party should realise they need to work on getting most of the centre left voters into voting for them instead of trying to attract Tories! Trying to attract Tories into voting Labour will only see real labour voters walk away from Labour more and more and switch to other centre left parties like the Greens/SNP/Plaid Cymru or not vote at all.
Collectively many more people voted for centre left parties than for the Tories at the last General Election and the one before that too in 2010. Considering that UKIP must have gained around 2 Million centre left voters too, I'd say the centre left voters still number well over 15 Million people and probably closer to 17 Million.
(In 2010, well over 15 Million people voted for centre left parties, probably over 16 Million)
The problem is, the centre left vote is split into many different parties where the Tories are the only main right wing party. UKIP don't count as a right wing party as they have been targetting and succeeding in getting Labour voters.
This is why the leadership candidates for the Labour party should realise they need to work on getting most of the centre left voters into voting for them instead of trying to attract Tories! Trying to attract Tories into voting Labour will only see real labour voters walk away from Labour more and more and switch to other centre left parties like the Greens/SNP/Plaid Cymru or not vote at all.
To include 2 million UKIP voters as "real" centre left voters is one of the most tenuous arguments I've seen on this forum.
Collectively many more people voted for centre right parties than for centre right parties at the last General Election
I agree with you, but you'd have got a very different impression of the situation if you got your knowledge of political parties from the press.
All that support from the wealthy owners of the press, plus the Tories throwing money at advertisers to maximise their lies and portray Labour as being to the left of Lenin, seems to have convinced a lot of people.
To include 2 million UKIP voters as "real" centre left voters is one of the most tenuous arguments I've seen on this forum.
So considering the FACT that UKIP got less than a Million votes in 2010 and got the best part of 4 Million in 2015, where do you think those voters came from?
11.3 Million the Tories got, centre left parties got much more than that and then UKIP gained a lot of Labour voters too.
UKIP + Tories = Centre Right
Trying to say UKIP is now supported by left wing voters is frankly laughable. Those Labour voters who voted for them are probably the Right of Centre labour voters of old. Hence why Labour now looks like a socialist disaster that it is thanks to them leaving.
Trying to say UKIP is now supported by left wing voters is frankly laughable. Those Labour voters who voted for them are probably the Right of Centre labour voters of old. Hence why Labour now looks like a socialist disaster that it is thanks to them leaving.
Oh so Nigel Farage never targetted labour voters in safe Labour seats then?! UKIP came second in 120 seats and the increases in their votes in the marginal seats had a much bigger effect on the General Election than the SNP did. You should look at the BBC's election results web site and work it out for yourself.
So considering the FACT that UKIP got less than a Million votes in 2010 and got the best part of 4 Million in 2015, where do you think those voters came from?
Probably a lot from the Conservatives and most BNP voters plus a few Labour voters. It looks like Lib Dem voters who didn't go Green went Blue.
Trying to say UKIP is now supported by left wing voters is frankly laughable. Those Labour voters who voted for them are probably the Right of Centre labour voters of old. Hence why Labour now looks like a socialist disaster that it is thanks to them leaving.
Comments
How do you know people think they have a god given right to that help?
I don't think it will happen. People like earning money too much and those at the bottom of the pile are less likely to vote.
Agree. Tories and Labour are much the same.
What makes you say that? I would say that we're small 'l' liberal and have been since the 1980s.
Enormous runways built on green belt land, and massive cooling units to be lowered into volcanoes all over the plant.
So that the pigs have somewhere to land when they start flying, and we can kick start hell freezing over.
Well your post certainly implied it can only be the persons fault for being sick as someone must be at fault . your not sick when your run over by a bus that's why I asked for clarification.
It's not a matter for god to decide if people are entitled to medical treatment. so yes people have the right to demand medical care when they are sick.
It's a simple step from there to having aspirations, and the extreme left don't like people getting above themsleves
Yes of course people should look after their health, but saying that doesn't absolve the government from there responsibility to provide health care.
Good point. It's the thin end of the wedge. We can't have the plebs thinking for themselves can we? Before you know it they'll be existing outside the structure of the all encompassing state. It'll be anarchy.:D
People have the right to demand free bacon for breakfast, but they may not get it.
A medical service needs hospitals, doctors and nurses, which all cost money, so it cannot be "free". It can be paid for in the same way we pay hotel bills, it can be paid for by medical insurance, or it can be funded by taxes. Back in 1945, we decided on a state monopoly funded by taxes, but no other country has chosen to copy that approach. Meanwhile, even the Labour party has come to realise that a state monopoly making cars or digging coal out of the ground is not something we should go back to.
Nothing of course. But unfortunately, there is a growing culture of taking a back seat in your own life and letting the state take care of it for you. Very few people aspire to anything these days, and often find themselves in positions that were always pushed into being.
Don't get me wrong, things like health care can be looked at one of two ways. The NHS is a hugely important establishment in this country and it's something for better or worse, we should be proud of. But she's becoming unsustainable so something has to be done (I'd start with middle management myself).
Also another state dependency often comes in the form of employment. There are far too many people in far too many places who are in public sector positions (I think Glasgow for example is a big example of this).
My point is, there are far too many people who see life in general as being too hard to deal with.
I agree. However. The state should be the fallback position and a temporary one at that. It shouldn't be the way of life. A person needs to take responsibility for their own actions first and foremost.
Pretty much. I have no qualms with the government acting as a sort of "safety net", but at the same time even that will be open to abuse by those who choose to.
And your loved ones.
There seems to be a a very dangerous logic here that when somebody is ill then it must be someones fault.
(In 2010, well over 15 Million people voted for centre left parties, probably over 16 Million)
The problem is, the centre left vote is split into many different parties where the Tories are the only main right wing party. UKIP don't count as a right wing party as they have been targetting and succeeding in getting Labour voters.
This is why the leadership candidates for the Labour party should realise they need to work on getting most of the centre left voters into voting for them instead of trying to attract Tories! Trying to attract Tories into voting Labour will only see real labour voters walk away from Labour more and more and switch to other centre left parties like the Greens/SNP/Plaid Cymru or not vote at all.
Collectively many more people voted for centre right parties than for centre right parties at the last General Election
To include 2 million UKIP voters as "real" centre left voters is one of the most tenuous arguments I've seen on this forum.
I agree with you, but you'd have got a very different impression of the situation if you got your knowledge of political parties from the press.
All that support from the wealthy owners of the press, plus the Tories throwing money at advertisers to maximise their lies and portray Labour as being to the left of Lenin, seems to have convinced a lot of people.
11.3 Million the Tories got, centre left parties got much more than that and then UKIP gained a lot of Labour voters too.
So considering the FACT that UKIP got less than a Million votes in 2010 and got the best part of 4 Million in 2015, where do you think those voters came from?
UKIP + Tories = Centre Right
Trying to say UKIP is now supported by left wing voters is frankly laughable. Those Labour voters who voted for them are probably the Right of Centre labour voters of old. Hence why Labour now looks like a socialist disaster that it is thanks to them leaving.
Oh so Nigel Farage never targetted labour voters in safe Labour seats then?! UKIP came second in 120 seats and the increases in their votes in the marginal seats had a much bigger effect on the General Election than the SNP did. You should look at the BBC's election results web site and work it out for yourself.
Far right + hard right NOT = centre right