Asking if denying the holocaust is worth a jail sentence is something quite different. It asks not if the holocaust was bad, but if simply denying it is worthy of being imprisoned.
More accurately, the question is
"Holocaust denial - is it really such a big deal?"
From one point of view, What the OP effectively asked was 'the holocaust, yeah we know it was bad... But bad enough to throw people in jail for denying it happened'?
I think it's an interesting question, but as horns pointed out, a controversial one.
I don't agree - in fact they explicitly made it clear that it's ridiculous and horrible to deny the holocaust.
No you haven't. Given that the OP explicitly stated that it would be "ridiculous and horrible" to deny the holocaust, exactly where did you get "the holocaust wasn't all that bad" from?
Or did you misread, resulting in you levelling an accusation at someone that you found distasteful when it was levelled at you in similar circumstance?
I meant that the question was implied, not that it was the OP's opinion.
Is there a problem with asking the question?
I think I'm having a "not following you" moment. Which question? That it wasn't "that bad"? If so, no, I don't think that came across in the OP at all - in fact it looked to me as if they went to great pains to make it clear that they didn't regard it as "not that bad" but as a horrific event.
As the evidence is there to prove it did happen I don't see the problem with people denying the facts if they choose to do so, they can't have any real evidence to back up their claims and as such it should be treated with the contempt and ridicule its worthy of, actually putting people in prison for believing in such nonsense is pushing it a bit in my opinion and is bordering on thought crime which is about as fascist as you can get which is ironic really.
I stand by what I said when I said I stood by what I said...
"The holocaust - is it really such a big deal?" was never asked nor anything of the sort. Fact. I'm not debating with you, I'm telling you straight facts and you're ignoring them. There's having an opinion, and then there's being plain wrong.
"Holocaust denial - should it be punishable by jail?" is the question being asked. How can you deny that? You can't, because that's a fact. This is not a debate.
As the evidence is there to prove it did happen I don't see the problem with people denying the facts if they choose to do so, they can't have any real evidence to back up their claims and as such it should be treated with the contempt and ridicule its worthy of, actually putting in prison for believing in such nonsense is pushing it a bit in my opinion and is bordering on thought crime which is about as fascist as you can get which is ironic really.
This makes a lot of sense. At first I was very knee jerk and just thought "jail the denying bastards" but that's given me a lot of food for thought.
Over the Xmas period there have been plenty of programmes about WWII. I never really knew much about the war and found them very interesting, especially the series about Auschwitz and the "final solution". It was very upsetting, it actually had me in tears. I have been reading up on it on the internet since.
Some people deny the holocaust and in other European countries it lands them in jail. As ridiculous as it is and horrible it is to deny it, should it really be punishable by jail? There is talk of them crminalising it in England, surely this would be the wrong thing to do, or would it?
I also don't see the slightest suggestion from the OP that "the holocaust isn't such a big deal".
As to whether denial should be a criminal offence, I'd rather these people were allowed to carry on opening their mouths and displaying their abject stupidity.
Another thing that concerns me is that criminlasing it would stifle debate. Surely we should be able to discuss such atrocities without fear of being misinterpreted and get in bother. for instance i have been misinterpreted on this thread, now if this was criminalised, would that mean i could be taken to task in a court of law?
I also don't see the slightest suggestion from the OP that "the holocaust isn't such a big deal".
As to whether denial should be a criminal offence, I'd rather these people were allowed to carry on opening their mouths and displaying their abject stupidity.
Just a second.
'The holocaust isn't such a big deal'
and
'The holocaust - is it such a big deal?'
are two very different things to write.
In my opinion, the OP was asking if FM's thought denial of the holocaust warrented a jail term, which is tantamount to asking:
'The holocaust - is it such a big deal?'
Is there some kind of problem with asking that question?
Actually, you're quite wrong. They general seem to seek to play down the numbers involved and deny its signifigance, rather than claim it didn't happen at all...
Actually, you're quite wrong. They general seem to seek to play down the numbers involved and deny its signifigance, rather than claim it didn't happen at all...
The question is, is that a crime?
I often wonder how low a number it must become before it loses its significance in their eyes, I myself in the past have questioned the numbers and gone into a lot depth to find out the real facts, my conclusion was nobody knows for sure but that it doesn't make it any less significant as an act regardless, I guess that means if I had done the same research and asked the same questions in another country it would be considered criminal, you have to ask why that would be?
In my opinion, the OP was asking if FM's thought denial of the holocaust warrented a jail term, which is tantamount to asking:
'The holocaust - is it such a big deal?'
But it's not tantamount to asking that at all. There was absolutely no questioning of the significance of the holocaust, it was plainly and simply a question of whether it is justified to jail someone purely for their denial.
Comments
"The holocaust - is it really such a big deal?"
Was not the question. Fact.
Asking if denying the holocaust is worth a jail sentence is something quite different. It asks not if the holocaust was bad, but if simply denying it is worthy of being imprisoned.
More accurately, the question is
"Holocaust denial - is it really such a big deal?"
Very different.
You clearly didn't read any of my follow up posts in which I state that this debate has made me think twice.
Plus, your analogy is crap. There is loads of evidence that evolution occurred just as there is loads of evidence that the holocaust occured.
A better analogy would be that creationists were putting evolutionists in jail, but it would still be crap.
No you haven't. Given that the OP explicitly stated that it would be "ridiculous and horrible" to deny the holocaust, exactly where did you get "the holocaust wasn't all that bad" from?
Or did you misread, resulting in you levelling an accusation at someone that you found distasteful when it was levelled at you in similar circumstance?
I meant that the question was implied, not that it was the OP's opinion.
Is there a problem with asking the question?
Nope. Evolution is well documented. Creationism is a (some would say) misguided belief.
The Holocaust is well documented. Denial of the Holocaust is (some would say) a misguided belief.
The analogy is you're going to throw people in jail for stating publicly that something that DID happen DIDN'T happen, not the other way around.
No they don't. They deny it happened at all.
The clue is in the word "deniers".
BTW. Nice bit of selective quoting there, leaving out "but not of denying the holocaust happened".
I still don't get it, clearly.
But while standing by it, you can't actually explain why you said it in the first place, eh?
I think I'm having a "not following you" moment. Which question? That it wasn't "that bad"? If so, no, I don't think that came across in the OP at all - in fact it looked to me as if they went to great pains to make it clear that they didn't regard it as "not that bad" but as a horrific event.
Bloody hell, you're absolutely right. I am a complete dolt. Apologies to you and Jumbo Holden.
Hangs head in shame...:o
Yes, misquoting.
The quote you attributed to the OP, is not in their post.
"The holocaust - is it really such a big deal?" was never asked nor anything of the sort. Fact. I'm not debating with you, I'm telling you straight facts and you're ignoring them. There's having an opinion, and then there's being plain wrong.
"Holocaust denial - should it be punishable by jail?" is the question being asked. How can you deny that? You can't, because that's a fact. This is not a debate.
This makes a lot of sense. At first I was very knee jerk and just thought "jail the denying bastards" but that's given me a lot of food for thought.
Again, good work people.
But they didn't actually ask that, did they
A quote is, by definition, a verbatim statement of what someone said/wrote.
The OP didn't say/write what horns quoted them as saying, so he/she misquoted them.
I also don't see the slightest suggestion from the OP that "the holocaust isn't such a big deal".
As to whether denial should be a criminal offence, I'd rather these people were allowed to carry on opening their mouths and displaying their abject stupidity.
Just a second.
'The holocaust isn't such a big deal'
and
'The holocaust - is it such a big deal?'
are two very different things to write.
In my opinion, the OP was asking if FM's thought denial of the holocaust warrented a jail term, which is tantamount to asking:
'The holocaust - is it such a big deal?'
Is there some kind of problem with asking that question?
Actually, you're quite wrong. They general seem to seek to play down the numbers involved and deny its signifigance, rather than claim it didn't happen at all...
The question is, is that a crime?
I often wonder how low a number it must become before it loses its significance in their eyes, I myself in the past have questioned the numbers and gone into a lot depth to find out the real facts, my conclusion was nobody knows for sure but that it doesn't make it any less significant as an act regardless, I guess that means if I had done the same research and asked the same questions in another country it would be considered criminal, you have to ask why that would be?
No problem at all with anyone asking that question. My answer would be it was and is a very big deal.
That isn't the question asked by the OP. The historical event and it's denial are not the same thing.
I was merely pointing out that it was likely to be controversial. Some people seem to have misinterpreted me somewhat.