So why do you think the English and Welsh were able to resolve these issues but we still can't? I mean, at one point they were as badly divided as us. Hell, one of the reasons they had a civil war was because they thought Charles I was trying to quietly reintroduce catholicism as the state religion... not to mention importing Dutch and German monarchs just to keep catholics away from the throne
You beat me to that question, how come in Ireland they can't resolve it but the others can?
You beat me to that question, how come in Ireland they can't resolve it but the others can?
The English brought the religious dimension into the north of Ireland through the Plantation as the planters were Protestants who took land from the dispossessed Irish Catholics.
Therefore Protestant = loyal to the crown and Catholic = disloyal.
This has broadly remained the viewpoint of many. Most people involved in the Troubles probably weren't. Religious but religion was used to define what tribe a person belonged to.
It's still used as a definition as a Catholic will most likely be a Republican or Nationalist and a Protestant a Unionist even if they never see the inside of a church/chapel following baptism. There is evidence of a change in attitude of some Catholics regarding the union but the extent of this is difficult to determine.
Can't be many countries in the world were a person's religion directly dictates their political viewpoint .
I know non Catholic people from Northern Ireland who tut tut and despair of their countrymen and women and earnestly profess to being above such oafish tribalism but ask them if they would live in a United Ireland and the innate bigotry that's stamped on their Prostestant DNA comes to the fore.
Can't be many countries in the world were a person's religion directly dictates their political viewpoint .
I know non Catholic people from Northern Ireland who tut tut and despair of their countrymen and women and earnestly profess to being above such oafish tribalism but ask them if they would live in a United Ireland and the innate bigotry that's stamped on their Prostestant DNA comes to the fore.
Why does not wanting a united Ireland make you a bigot ?
Can't be many countries in the world were a person's religion directly dictates their political viewpoint .
I know non Catholic people from Northern Ireland who tut tut and despair of their countrymen and women and earnestly profess to being above such oafish tribalism but ask them if they would live in a United Ireland and the innate bigotry that's stamped on their Prostestant DNA comes to the fore.
That's a little harsh on the moderate unionist view.... why do you think their reasons for not wanting to live in a United Ireland is driven by bigotry?
There are some perfectly valid non-sectarian reasons for not wanting to join/ live in the Republic as there are lots of valid reasons for joining it... We're not all bigots in the north
Although maybe you just happen to know some bigoted loyalist orange order types.
In real simplistic terms; Its not *really* about religion as such but more about republicans who want the whole of the island of Ireland to be part of the ROI and Unionists who want NI to be part of the UK.
Traditionally Ireland (ROI) is Catholic, where as the Protestant religion is tied to/imported from the UK. (I think that's accurate). FMKK has explained that aspect better below, basically the two religions fall onto either side of the fence on the issue of whether NI should be a part of the ROI, as a result of a lot of history.
So:
Catholic = Republic of Ireland and want to be part of the ROI
Protestant = United Kingdom and want to be part of the UK
So the tensions are about that, not the religion itself.
Thank you for that, it took fifteen posts to actually get someone who isn't mentally defective, which would be fine if it was not a thread on this topic. Grow up guys!!
There is no longer a problem south of the border just in Northern Ireland and it's nothing to do with Religion anyway, it just happens that most Nationalists are Catholics and most Protestants are loyal to the queen and Britain. However it is complicated, there was many brave protestant republican icons in the past and many Catholics have given there lives for Britain during the both world wars.
In real simplistic terms; Its not *really* about religion as such but more about republicans who want the whole of the island of Ireland to be part of the ROI and Unionists who want NI to be part of the UK.
Traditionally Ireland (ROI) is Catholic, where as the Protestant religion is tied to/imported from the UK. (I think that's accurate). FMKK has explained that aspect better below, basically the two religions fall onto either side of the fence on the issue of whether NI should be a part of the ROI, as a result of a lot of history.
So:
Catholic = Republic of Ireland and want to be part of the ROI
Protestant = United Kingdom and want to be part of the UK
So the tensions are about that, not the religion itself.
In real simplistic terms; Its not *really* about religion as such but more about republicans who want the whole of the island of Ireland to be part of the ROI and Unionists who want NI to be part of the UK.
Traditionally Ireland (ROI) is Catholic, where as the Protestant religion is tied to/imported from the UK. (I think that's accurate). FMKK has explained that aspect better below, basically the two religions fall onto either side of the fence on the issue of whether NI should be a part of the ROI, as a result of a lot of history.
So:
Catholic = Republic of Ireland and want to be part of the ROI
Protestant = United Kingdom and want to be part of the UK
So the tensions are about that, not the religion itself.
A very simplistic view that, many modern republicans idolise protestant republicans from 100-200 years ago, even GAA clubs in staunch republican areas are named after protestants.
A very simplistic view that, many modern republicans idolise protestant republicans from 100-200 years ago, even GAA clubs in staunch republican areas are named after protestants.
since reformation and counter reformation caths and prots have been at each others' throats. causing lots of wars in europe. you cant say they belive the same things because they dont.
situation in ireland is also religious. only civil insofar as various political factions have associated with one side or the other.
at least post The Enlightenment, caths and prots dont usually go around killing each other. unlike the corresponding muslim factions ......
Can't be many countries in the world were a person's religion directly dictates their political viewpoint .
I know non Catholic people from Northern Ireland who tut tut and despair of their countrymen and women and earnestly profess to being above such oafish tribalism but ask them if they would live in a United Ireland and the innate bigotry that's stamped on their Prostestant DNA comes to the fore.
To be fair, given the influence the catholic church still has on policy and legislation in Ireland I wouldn't want to live there either.
A very simplistic view that, many modern republicans idolise protestant republicans from 100-200 years ago, even GAA clubs in staunch republican areas are named after protestants.
Not a simplistic view, I inderstand the issue properly, or at least to a reasonable level; I was just putting it down in what I felt was the absolute simplest way possible, in a way which wouldn't cause a row; as this topic always does on DS.
You have to remember that St. Patricks Day caused rows here, with people arguing over whether the ROI was a legitimate name. Its a very sensitive topic that's very entrenched and people will argue over just about anything; keep it as simple as possible and you're less likely to cause a problem.
My point was that Ireland is traditionally Catholic and the Protestant religion was imported; which is what forms the basis for the religious side of the troubles; without muddying the water with everything else (and there is a lot of muddy water).
My point was that Ireland is traditionally catholic and the Protestant religion was imported; which is what forms the basis for the religious side of the troubles; without muddying the water with everything else (and there is a lot of muddy water).
Christianity is imported full stop, the old Pagans were happy enough worshiping the God of the sea until the foreigners brought Christianity here.
As others have said it was never really and issue of fighting between Catholics and Protestants in Ireland but Unionists and Nationalists - Protestant Irish national patriots (Thomas Davis, Wolfe Tone, Charles Stewart Parnell, Robert Erskine Childers, Thomas Russell etc.) all played a central role in the development of Irish nationalism.
For anyone who wants to see how exactly Protestants/Catholics always has to be treated different to Unionist/Nationalists its looking at this -
Veterans of the 1916 rising (which ultimately led to the Irish free state) asked about the minority protestant population in Ireland, their thoughts might surprise some http://youtu.be/R9irRZ0cgSs?t=5m8s
"Protestants were the beginning of our democracy, the beginning of our peace movement.... we can never forget, we have a debt to Protestants and they to us"
- Maire Comerford (IRA 1916 Activist)
An statement that should never be forgotten by Irish people of all creed and colour at any time of Irish history.
"Protestants were the beginning of our democracy, the beginning of our peace movement.... we can never forget, we have a debt to Protestants and they to us"
- Maire Comerford (IRA 1916 Activist)
An statement that should never be forgotten by Irish people of all creed and colour at any time of Irish history.
I don't think many Prods have time for an IRA member!
I don't think many Prods have time for an IRA member!
You do realise that there was Protestants (in the IRA) fighting against the British during the Irish War of Independence?? - your statement is wrong because you are again mixing up the terms Unionist and Protestant.
Comments
You beat me to that question, how come in Ireland they can't resolve it but the others can?
The English brought the religious dimension into the north of Ireland through the Plantation as the planters were Protestants who took land from the dispossessed Irish Catholics.
Therefore Protestant = loyal to the crown and Catholic = disloyal.
This has broadly remained the viewpoint of many. Most people involved in the Troubles probably weren't. Religious but religion was used to define what tribe a person belonged to.
It's still used as a definition as a Catholic will most likely be a Republican or Nationalist and a Protestant a Unionist even if they never see the inside of a church/chapel following baptism. There is evidence of a change in attitude of some Catholics regarding the union but the extent of this is difficult to determine.
I know non Catholic people from Northern Ireland who tut tut and despair of their countrymen and women and earnestly profess to being above such oafish tribalism but ask them if they would live in a United Ireland and the innate bigotry that's stamped on their Prostestant DNA comes to the fore.
Why does not wanting a united Ireland make you a bigot ?
That's a little harsh on the moderate unionist view.... why do you think their reasons for not wanting to live in a United Ireland is driven by bigotry?
There are some perfectly valid non-sectarian reasons for not wanting to join/ live in the Republic as there are lots of valid reasons for joining it... We're not all bigots in the north
Although maybe you just happen to know some bigoted loyalist orange order types.
Thank you for that, it took fifteen posts to actually get someone who isn't mentally defective, which would be fine if it was not a thread on this topic. Grow up guys!!
Gosh - thanks.
A very simplistic view that, many modern republicans idolise protestant republicans from 100-200 years ago, even GAA clubs in staunch republican areas are named after protestants.
I have little connection with France or the Republic.
I am British and see no reason at all to join with what I see as a foreign country.
And that's not being a bigot.
Though it seems you are. ;-)
And terrorists.
and saints and mythological figures
situation in ireland is also religious. only civil insofar as various political factions have associated with one side or the other.
at least post The Enlightenment, caths and prots dont usually go around killing each other. unlike the corresponding muslim factions ......
To be fair, given the influence the catholic church still has on policy and legislation in Ireland I wouldn't want to live there either.
Not a simplistic view, I inderstand the issue properly, or at least to a reasonable level; I was just putting it down in what I felt was the absolute simplest way possible, in a way which wouldn't cause a row; as this topic always does on DS.
You have to remember that St. Patricks Day caused rows here, with people arguing over whether the ROI was a legitimate name. Its a very sensitive topic that's very entrenched and people will argue over just about anything; keep it as simple as possible and you're less likely to cause a problem.
My point was that Ireland is traditionally Catholic and the Protestant religion was imported; which is what forms the basis for the religious side of the troubles; without muddying the water with everything else (and there is a lot of muddy water).
Christianity is imported full stop, the old Pagans were happy enough worshiping the God of the sea until the foreigners brought Christianity here.
That isn't really the point. What I said is correct in the context of the OP's question. It was catholic at that time in history.
Who were probably terrorists as well. :cool:
That was a joke.
Then again?
Some Catholic Priests. :cool:
You guys should try it out with local soccer clubs.... You could have the East Belfast Jonny Adair Avengers sunday league football club
Veterans of the 1916 rising (which ultimately led to the Irish free state) asked about the minority protestant population in Ireland, their thoughts might surprise some http://youtu.be/R9irRZ0cgSs?t=5m8s
- Maire Comerford (IRA 1916 Activist)
An statement that should never be forgotten by Irish people of all creed and colour at any time of Irish history.
Abouslutly not!!
It would need to be called. West Belfast.
That's were he was from. ;-)
I don't think many Prods have time for an IRA member!