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Is it legal for a pub to run a webcam without your permission?
The Wizard
Posts: 11,071 Forum Member
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One of the pubs in our area has set up a webcam and is broadcasting a live stream of a view of the bar and it's customers for all on the internet to see. They haven't put any signs up on the way in or bothered to ask anyone's prior permission before posting the live stream on the internet for everyone to see.
Now it may sound like i'm making a bit of an issue here or soundinga bit paranoid but i'm pretty sure it's an infringement of privacy not to mention a security issue. Not sure I'd really want everyone being able to keep tracks on my drinking habbits like how often i'm in the pub, who i'm with, how long i'm in there and how much I drink. Not that it's really that obvious but all the same it's something i'm not comfortable with and wondered about the legalities of doing such a thing. I don't have anything to hide but i think it could cause problems if they're not careful as people will end up using it to spy on people.
It's one thing to film customers on CCTV for safety reasons but another making that material freely available for anyone to view, record or make copies of sitting at home. With CCTV you know that the only person vioewing it is the shop owner/pub landlord etc but there are people out there that could use it for darker purposes like checking when people are in the pub so they can go round and burgle their house or maybe a wife or a boss keeping track on someone.
It just doesn't seem right if you ask me but maybe i'm just being a bit paranoid. You could argue that if you don't like it then don't go in but if they don't tell you before you go in then how are people supposed to know.
Now it may sound like i'm making a bit of an issue here or soundinga bit paranoid but i'm pretty sure it's an infringement of privacy not to mention a security issue. Not sure I'd really want everyone being able to keep tracks on my drinking habbits like how often i'm in the pub, who i'm with, how long i'm in there and how much I drink. Not that it's really that obvious but all the same it's something i'm not comfortable with and wondered about the legalities of doing such a thing. I don't have anything to hide but i think it could cause problems if they're not careful as people will end up using it to spy on people.
It's one thing to film customers on CCTV for safety reasons but another making that material freely available for anyone to view, record or make copies of sitting at home. With CCTV you know that the only person vioewing it is the shop owner/pub landlord etc but there are people out there that could use it for darker purposes like checking when people are in the pub so they can go round and burgle their house or maybe a wife or a boss keeping track on someone.
It just doesn't seem right if you ask me but maybe i'm just being a bit paranoid. You could argue that if you don't like it then don't go in but if they don't tell you before you go in then how are people supposed to know.
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The government say this:
* The CCTV operator must let people know they are using CCTV. Signs are the most usual way of doing this. The signs must be clearly visible and readable, and should include the details of the organisation operating the system if not obvious.
* CCTV should only be used in exceptional circumstances in areas where you normally expect privacy - such as in changing rooms or toilets, and should only be used to deal with very serious concerns. The operator should make extra effort to ensure that you are aware that cameras are in use.
* Conversations between members of the public should not be recorded on CCTV. (There are some specific exceptions to this, such as a panic button in a taxi cab or the charging area of a police custody suite).
- so your pub is breaking the first rule at least!
The pub must do this:
* Make sure someone in the organisation has responsibility for the CCTV images, deciding what is recorded, how images should be used and who they should be disclosed to;
* Notify with the Information Commissioner’s Office (check our public register);
* Have clear procedures on how to use the system and when to disclose information; and
* Make regular checks to ensure the procedures are followed.
I'd suggest pointing the landlord in the direction of this website as I'd assume that webcam and CCTV are very similar in a public place - any difference seems negligible.
http://www.ico.gov.uk/for_the_public/topic_specific_guides/cctv.aspx
Don't worry yourself, if any sad person is watching you to see how many pints you consume................is just sad and will never happen. Incase it does, always make sure you have combed your hair.
They have posted the live link on their facebook page so it's not just for their own benefit. I also know from personal experience that their CCTV camera outside in the beer garden has a microphone on it and she regularly uses it to listen in on converations. She has a sign outside saying CCTV in operation but it doesn't mention the recording of sound/private conversations and nowhere does it mention a live webcam.
I have no problem with being recorder on a CCTV camera for pub safety but another issue being filmed and my every movements being streamed over the net for just about anyone to look at. Nah sorry! I'm not comfortable with that level of infringement.
However, what they then do with those images is important.
Seconded. If people want to know whether or not you're in the pub, they can just walk in, can't they?
The nature of the privacy changes in changing situations.
http://www.ico.gov.uk/for_the_public/topic_specific_guides/cctv.aspx
recording their conversation without permission is illegal I think....listening in to someone would be hard to legislate against.
Yes but they wouldn't know you were in there until they walked in. With a webcam they don't have to be there in person and you can be spied on. Like I say, someone could watch you in the pub and see what time you leave the pub and use it to burgle your house or perhaps a wife could use it to see where her husband is or maybe a boss to see how many pint you drank last night. What about people who can lipread. Wouldn't be so hard for someone to look at the webcam and see what your talking about. Yes they could be in teh pub but if you could see that you were being observed in the pub you have a chance to walk out or move away from Mr Nosey. However if you're not aware of being watched then that's a different matter surely?
Anyway to answer my OP, is she breaking the law or not?
maybe so, but you still wouldn't be able to claim that your drink in the pub was 'in private'. People can video you all they want and do not need to make you aware of this or ask your permission; its when they broadcast it or use it for commercial purposes (inc CCTV for security) it becomes complicated.
I think post #10 makes it clear that she is.
If they've advertised it to the extent that you, your local burglars, your wife, your boss and the local deaf community all know about it, then I would say not.
if so why do u bother going there
What you have to understand, if you're not murdering the next passer by 'they' won't worry about you.
I see your point. But being there and videoing someone in person has 3 distinct advantages.
1) You know who's filming you and can object in person. It would be very hard to video someone in a pub without them knowing about it.
2) Most the time you're aware of it happening and have the option to remove yourself from the video or ask them to stop filming you.
3) That video is not being broadcast on the net for all to see and make copies of. You know where it is at the time of filming. If they do post in on the net without your permission and I object to it being there I'm pretty sure I can ask for it to be removed if it contained something I was worried about.
Another example. Depending on the position of the camera and how clear it is you may be able to listen in on people's mobile phone or private converasations or even record them putting in their pin number on th
you can object all you like, they would still be entitled to film you. this is the key difference. If it was just for the landlady's amusement then it would all be above board.
But why do you think you are so interesting?
Not really. This relates to recorded CCTV images not a live streaming webcam and doesn't mention if it's fine providing signage is in place. It also states that you have a right to see a copy of the recorded images however we're not talking about recorded images here. We're talking about live streamed video.
If that was the case anyone with a public webcam would be breaking the law then so what makes it legal/illegal?
its all a data protection thing. I think the pub is in the wrong compared to say abbey road because:
1 - people are more likely to be identifiable from pub images
2 - it sounds like it is done for 'entertainment' or marketing purposes, definitely not for personal use; whereas I think the traditional webcam sites would probably argue more for the journalistic or artistic exemption from dpa.
Of course, IANAL.
So do you need to seek employees/customer's permission or not? It really isn't clear at all.
http://www.webviews.co.uk/network/england/london/index.html
I bet if the OP went and studied the pub properly (preferably before the first pint!) he would find a notice warning about being recorded, although it might be like those tiny signs you get when the wheel-clampers want to catch you.