Don't they normally keep those sorts of sweeps quiet until afterwards? I hope the perpetrators don't disappear.
As for Shaun Wright - the Rotherham report clearly shows that there was plenty of documentation and discussion... he either is lying about knowing or wasn't doing his job if he wasn't reading reports of his department. He should certainly not be a PCC and it would be nice if they can find something to charge him with as it appears to be the only way to get rid of him.
Yes that was one of my thoughts hence my wording.
I sincerely hope they are on track to do just that with Mr. Wright.
I can't find a more reliable source for this information so far.
We all know there are paedophile rings consisting of mainly white middle aged and elderly men, exchanging images on their computers, and worse. But it doesn't negate what is going on in many Northern cities by mainly Pakistani sex abuse gangs.
That is currently the point at issue. Why do you feel the need to constantly deflect from the topic, as though posters don't know about white paedophiles ?
I think it's a reasonable question.
I am not talking about internet groups but people who groom children on the street - that is the model the reports are talking about and that is the model I gave figures for. The fact you don't understand this demonstrates the very point I am making - that street grooming by non-Pakistani groups is not being mentioned and victims might be at risk as a result. I have at no point said it negated the actions of the Pakistani groups, nor am I trying to deflect from the topic - I responded to statements made by others.
I sincerely hope they are on track to do just that with Mr. Wright.
I can't find a more reliable source for this information so far.
I just re-read the story and the DM talks about 'police sources' which makes me worry they have just told all those men to get out of town. I hope not - it would be incredibly irresponsible reporting.
I just re-read the story and the DM talks about 'police sources' which makes me worry they have just told all those men to get out of town. I hope not - it would be incredibly irresponsible reporting.
I don't believe it as it hasn't been reported by anyone else. When have the Daily Fail ever been irresponsible? :D
I can't quote posts on here at the moment. This is for exlordlucan. This was the earlier link....
Thanks for that anne, it was a complex read and way too much for me to reply to (taken in though) but I'd still like to know of these white gangs that are included because my suspicion is that if there are any then they are Eastern Europeans (Slovaks and Albanians mainly) because our own lot of whites don't work like that otherwise we'd have known about them for years - instead they work as individuals or are part of rings sharing images/info now that the internet is here.
Street grooming is nothing new to us but the using of the groomers businesses like taxi firms to gain details of the girls, their fast food establishments as fishing nets to 'catch' them and again use their taxi firms to transport them around the town/city and country to share amongst their mates, that IS new and the preserve of one particular group.
IMO, there are too many people trying to brush over the details in certain papers and reports ( using the equivalent of 'ah but more whites do' blah blah) and there is a danger that eventually these gangs will be seen as no different to any other groomers when cleary they are and not just their MO either but their attitude towards females and in particual young white ones.
Just to add, I agree that the authorities shouldn't take their eyes off others but at the moment the main effort should be on the Pakistani gangs and how to deal with the problem.
Try reading the report I posted earlier - it is clear that group abuse (different to gang abuse) is also being perpetrated by white men and non-Pakistanis. There is a graph to help demonstrate this. I also gave the figures in one of my posts.
I am not saying that there are not Pakistani groups, nor am I saying that this is not a serious issue, so I am wondering why you feel it is a problem for me to point out that there are other people from other ethnic groups involved. I have clearly stated why I pointed it out (my concern that these groups would not be addressed because of the focus on Pakistani gangs, a concern shared by the people who wrote reports on CSE for the government).
This thread started because of the part of the Rotherham report where some officers said they were afraid to raise the issues in case they were accused of racism... it is one of the factors that led to years of abuse going unresolved. All I am doing is trying to highlight a risk that we could do the same thing by concentrating on the Pakistani-groups and not all the men involved. Is there something wrong with that?
Nothing wrong at all but you are certainly taking great lengths to put it across with all your reports, quotes, % etc - it's almost like you don't like the finger being pointed at the one particular group and are trying your best to equal things out which ever way you can.
Nothing wrong at all but you are certainly taking great lengths to put it across with all your reports, quotes, % etc - it's almost like you don't like the finger being pointed at the one particular group and are trying your best to equal things out which ever way you can.
Yes, that is what is coming across very strongly with the poster.
Yes, that is what is coming across very strongly with the poster.
It's a common deflection technique. Where one's sensibilities on a topic are rattled somewhat, pointing to alternative situations is a means of trying to lessen the spotlight on the specifics under discussion.
If I as a white man complained to the police that I am being racially attacked do people honestly think police will respond the same way as an Asian or black?? Of coarse not! That makes the police racist!!
Thanks for that anne, it was a complex read and way too much for me to reply to (taken in though) but I'd still like to know of these white gangs that are included because my suspicion is that if there are any then they are Eastern Europeans (Slovaks and Albanians mainly) because our own lot of whites don't work like that otherwise we'd have known about them for years - instead they work as individuals or are part of rings sharing images/info now that the internet is here.
Street grooming is nothing new to us but the using of the groomers businesses like taxi firms to gain details of the girls, their fast food establishments as fishing nets to 'catch' them and again use their taxi firms to transport them around the town/city and country to share amongst their mates, that IS new and the preserve of one particular group.
IMO, there are too many people trying to brush over the details in certain papers and reports ( using the equivalent of 'ah but more whites do' blah blah) and there is a danger that eventually these gangs will be seen as no different to any other groomers when cleary they are and not just their MO either but their attitude towards females and in particual young white ones.
Just to add, I agree that the authorities shouldn't take their eyes off others but at the moment the main effort should be on the Pakistani gangs and how to deal with the problem.
I have found an article on the subject of grooming gangs made in light of this case.
As you will see it's a complex issue, basically another balls up for many reasons including the PC brigade and the usual bureaucratic shambles.
Grooming gangs: what we know about the perpetrators and victims
In the wake of the report into sexual abuse in Rotherham, we take a look at the available evidence on perpetrators and victims in England and Wales.
I disagree that the "main" effort should be concentrating on Pakistani gangs. That would be yet another dereliction of duty and allowing more children to suffer. There should be enough resources for all children to be protected from all gangs and if not why not? I have followed and contributed to the thread from the start. Deflection away from the Pakistani element has not been mine or jesaya's intention and the subject has been well and truly covered for days with a lot of research included. Links provided to why this is a problem amongst Pakistani men particularly the Kashmir/ Murpuri community and what is currently being done about it in the Pakistani community. Anyone is free to discuss anything from those links. I would question the agenda of anyone defecting away from the fact that this is not only a Pakistani problem, that they only target white girls etcetc. That is deflection from reality and for what reason? Concern should be equal for all victims of abuse and not used to suit personal agendas.........I have already given this link.
Nothing wrong at all but you are certainly taking great lengths to put it across with all your reports, quotes, % etc - it's almost like you don't like the finger being pointed at the one particular group and are trying your best to equal things out which ever way you can.
Perhaps you should look at how this particular part of the discussion began - my first comment about this was in response to a post that said 'if white men did this then there would be an outcry'. I challenged that - then was asked for evidence to back my challenge up and I provided it. There then followed the usual chain of posts challenging the evidence until the accusations of diverting the argument begin. Unless you are saying that people must be able to make comments like that unchallenged then you had better accept that such diversions will take place.
As for not liking the finger being pointed at one particular group -- that is just rubbish. I have consistently recognised the problem in the Pakistani community. Would you care to point out where I have not?
Yes, that is what is coming across very strongly with the poster.
Read my reply to exlordlucan. You were the one who started this chain of posts about white perpetrators with this:
"But I'm comparing in my mind what would have happened if the situation had been in reverse, and it had been white Christian or no religion men, abusing Asian or white girls. I am 100% convinced in my own mind that the full weight of the law would have descended upon them as soon as their offences started to come to light."
I replied that white men were involved and when asked by another poster to back that statement up I did.
If you are saying that your posts cannot be challenged then you had better be more explicit about that - otherwise do not start throwing accusations of deflection about or supporting those who do.
Read my reply to exlordlucan. You were the one who started this chain of posts about white perpetrators with this:
I replied that white men were involved and when asked by another poster to back that statement up I did.
If you are saying that your posts cannot be challenged then you had better be more explicit about that - otherwise do not start throwing accusations of deflection about or supporting those who do.
OK, try and keep your cool Where did I say my posts couldn't be challenged ? My posts have been challenged very heavily on here for over 10 years, so that's an odd thing to say.
I don't know of any non Pakistani Muslim men mixed up in the Rotherham gang. Perhaps you can name them ? no
Not one of the victims interviewed has identified any other ethnic group in that town. If they have maybe you can point me to them.
OK, try and keep your cool Where did I say my posts couldn't be challenged ? My posts have been challenged very heavily on here for over 10 years, so that's an odd thing to say.
I don't know of any non Pakistani Muslim men mixed up in the Rotherham gang. Perhaps you can name them ? no
Not one of the victims interviewed has identified any other ethnic group in that town. If they have maybe you can point me to them.
Many babies born to victims of the grooming and sexual exploitation in Rotherham documented in a damning report have been taken away from their mothers, causing them further trauma.
Sarah Champion, the town's MP, said some of the children, often born to teenage girls with little means to support them, will never again be seen by the abuse victims.
The Labour MP is investigating what counselling the women have been offered, saying that authorities’ decision to take away the infants “spoke volumes” about how the children were not treated as victims.
One young mother affected by the abuse was 17-year-old Laura Wilson, who was stabbed to death in 2010 by her boyfriend after she revealed their relationship to his family.
The amount of sheer neglect and abuse is overwhelming, throughout this entire case.
OK, try and keep your cool Where did I say my posts couldn't be challenged ? My posts have been challenged very heavily on here for over 10 years, so that's an odd thing to say.
I don't know of any non Pakistani Muslim men mixed up in the Rotherham gang. Perhaps you can name them ? no
Not one of the victims interviewed has identified any other ethnic group in that town. If they have maybe you can point me to them.
Don't patronise me blueblade - it is bordering on baiting now, as is your reply. You know full well I was not talking about Rotherham. So let's just stop this, shall we - you evidently don't like being challenged so I'll let you chat to the cheap seats.
I can't believe that a thread discussing Pakistani grooming gangs and the reasons why they have been allowed to get away with it for so long has been so thoroughly turned around to it being white men that are the perpetrators.
Really? Stick around. This is DS where that would be seen as commonplace.
Perhaps you should look at how this particular part of the discussion began - my first comment about this was in response to a post that said 'if white men did this then there would be an outcry'. I challenged that - then was asked for evidence to back my challenge up and I provided it. There then followed the usual chain of posts challenging the evidence until the accusations of diverting the argument begin. Unless you are saying that people must be able to make comments like that unchallenged then you had better accept that such diversions will take place.
As for not liking the finger being pointed at one particular group -- that is just rubbish. I have consistently recognised the problem in the Pakistani community. Would you care to point out where I have not?
... to which you responded with a link to a report which said nothing about white gangs nor getting away with it so hardly 'evidence' was it, all that was in there was something about white perpetrators being the biggest %, which doesn't relate to the situation we have with Pakistani gangs but was was right up your street and so the thread went into divert mode.
You throwing white men into the equation isn't going to cloud the issue here and won't go unchallenged either.
... to which you responded with a link to a report which said nothing about white gangs nor getting away with it so hardly 'evidence' was it, all that was in there was something about white perpetrators being the biggest %, which doesn't relate to the situation we have with Pakistani gangs but was was right up your street and so the thread went into divert mode.
You throwing white men into the equation isn't going to cloud the issue here and won't go unchallenged either.
Lol the thread title is "Why are we so afraid of highlighting race, even when it matters?" but some people think that that doesn't count when the race is white people.
... to which you responded with a link to a report which said nothing about white gangs nor getting away with it so hardly 'evidence' was it, all that was in there was something about white perpetrators being the biggest %, which doesn't relate to the situation we have with Pakistani gangs but was was right up your street and so the thread went into divert mode.
You throwing white men into the equation isn't going to cloud the issue here and won't go unchallenged either.
As the report I provided showed that white men were carrying out group abuse (ie the same type of abuse) and as almost no white men have been prosecuted then it is logical to say 'they are getting away with it'. Blueblade raised the matter of white men abusing girls and I challenged it. Not a diversion - a response. If you have a problem with the subject of white men being raised in this debate then take it up with the person who raised it.
As the report I provided showed that white men were carrying out group abuse (ie the same type of abuse) and as almost no white men have been prosecuted then it is logical to say 'they are getting away with it'. Blueblade raised the matter of white men abusing girls and I challenged it. Not a diversion - a response. If you have a problem with the subject of white men being raised in this debate then take it up with the person who raised it.
Comments
Yes that was one of my thoughts hence my wording.
I sincerely hope they are on track to do just that with Mr. Wright.
I can't find a more reliable source for this information so far.
I am not talking about internet groups but people who groom children on the street - that is the model the reports are talking about and that is the model I gave figures for. The fact you don't understand this demonstrates the very point I am making - that street grooming by non-Pakistani groups is not being mentioned and victims might be at risk as a result. I have at no point said it negated the actions of the Pakistani groups, nor am I trying to deflect from the topic - I responded to statements made by others.
I just re-read the story and the DM talks about 'police sources' which makes me worry they have just told all those men to get out of town. I hope not - it would be incredibly irresponsible reporting.
I don't believe it as it hasn't been reported by anyone else. When have the Daily Fail ever been irresponsible?
Well, there is that. And they won't care about the victims if it backfires either.
Thanks for that anne, it was a complex read and way too much for me to reply to (taken in though) but I'd still like to know of these white gangs that are included because my suspicion is that if there are any then they are Eastern Europeans (Slovaks and Albanians mainly) because our own lot of whites don't work like that otherwise we'd have known about them for years - instead they work as individuals or are part of rings sharing images/info now that the internet is here.
Street grooming is nothing new to us but the using of the groomers businesses like taxi firms to gain details of the girls, their fast food establishments as fishing nets to 'catch' them and again use their taxi firms to transport them around the town/city and country to share amongst their mates, that IS new and the preserve of one particular group.
IMO, there are too many people trying to brush over the details in certain papers and reports ( using the equivalent of 'ah but more whites do' blah blah) and there is a danger that eventually these gangs will be seen as no different to any other groomers when cleary they are and not just their MO either but their attitude towards females and in particual young white ones.
Just to add, I agree that the authorities shouldn't take their eyes off others but at the moment the main effort should be on the Pakistani gangs and how to deal with the problem.
Nothing wrong at all but you are certainly taking great lengths to put it across with all your reports, quotes, % etc - it's almost like you don't like the finger being pointed at the one particular group and are trying your best to equal things out which ever way you can.
Yes, that is what is coming across very strongly with the poster.
It's a common deflection technique. Where one's sensibilities on a topic are rattled somewhat, pointing to alternative situations is a means of trying to lessen the spotlight on the specifics under discussion.
That's it. The Guardianista.
I have found an article on the subject of grooming gangs made in light of this case.
As you will see it's a complex issue, basically another balls up for many reasons including the PC brigade and the usual bureaucratic shambles.
Grooming gangs: what we know about the perpetrators and victims
In the wake of the report into sexual abuse in Rotherham, we take a look at the available evidence on perpetrators and victims in England and Wales.
https://fullfact.org/crime/sex_offender_asian_white_proportion_grooming_rotherham-34810
http://www.childrenscommissioner.gov.uk/info/csegg1
I disagree that the "main" effort should be concentrating on Pakistani gangs. That would be yet another dereliction of duty and allowing more children to suffer. There should be enough resources for all children to be protected from all gangs and if not why not? I have followed and contributed to the thread from the start. Deflection away from the Pakistani element has not been mine or jesaya's intention and the subject has been well and truly covered for days with a lot of research included. Links provided to why this is a problem amongst Pakistani men particularly the Kashmir/ Murpuri community and what is currently being done about it in the Pakistani community. Anyone is free to discuss anything from those links. I would question the agenda of anyone defecting away from the fact that this is not only a Pakistani problem, that they only target white girls etcetc. That is deflection from reality and for what reason? Concern should be equal for all victims of abuse and not used to suit personal agendas.........I have already given this link.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jul/22/how-racism-takes-root
Search Results for 'grooming'
http://www.channel4.com/news/search/?freetext=grooming
Perhaps you should look at how this particular part of the discussion began - my first comment about this was in response to a post that said 'if white men did this then there would be an outcry'. I challenged that - then was asked for evidence to back my challenge up and I provided it. There then followed the usual chain of posts challenging the evidence until the accusations of diverting the argument begin. Unless you are saying that people must be able to make comments like that unchallenged then you had better accept that such diversions will take place.
As for not liking the finger being pointed at one particular group -- that is just rubbish. I have consistently recognised the problem in the Pakistani community. Would you care to point out where I have not?
Read my reply to exlordlucan. You were the one who started this chain of posts about white perpetrators with this:
I replied that white men were involved and when asked by another poster to back that statement up I did.
If you are saying that your posts cannot be challenged then you had better be more explicit about that - otherwise do not start throwing accusations of deflection about or supporting those who do.
OK, try and keep your cool
I don't know of any non Pakistani Muslim men mixed up in the Rotherham gang. Perhaps you can name them ? no
Not one of the victims interviewed has identified any other ethnic group in that town. If they have maybe you can point me to them.
Bet she can't.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/rotherham-abuse-scandal-authorities-decisions-to-take-away-babies-born-to-abused-girls-caused-yet-more-suffering-9701419.html
The amount of sheer neglect and abuse is overwhelming, throughout this entire case.
Don't patronise me blueblade - it is bordering on baiting now, as is your reply. You know full well I was not talking about Rotherham. So let's just stop this, shall we - you evidently don't like being challenged so I'll let you chat to the cheap seats.
Really? Stick around. This is DS where that would be seen as commonplace.
It has been a somewhat, shall we say keen and relentless defence. I'm surprised she's had time to eat. I'm thinking of sending emergency food parcels!
No your response was this..
...and received this reply
... to which you responded with a link to a report which said nothing about white gangs nor getting away with it so hardly 'evidence' was it, all that was in there was something about white perpetrators being the biggest %, which doesn't relate to the situation we have with Pakistani gangs but was was right up your street and so the thread went into divert mode.
You throwing white men into the equation isn't going to cloud the issue here and won't go unchallenged either.
Lol the thread title is "Why are we so afraid of highlighting race, even when it matters?" but some people think that that doesn't count when the race is white people.
As the report I provided showed that white men were carrying out group abuse (ie the same type of abuse) and as almost no white men have been prosecuted then it is logical to say 'they are getting away with it'. Blueblade raised the matter of white men abusing girls and I challenged it. Not a diversion - a response. If you have a problem with the subject of white men being raised in this debate then take it up with the person who raised it.
The thread has been thoroughly hijacked.
He has - it was you.