If the "media debates" ARE part of the official election campaign it should be for the Electoral Commission & OFCOM to determine the format/participation on the basis of rational criteria...NOT something for mainly foreign owned media companies/politicians to stitch up between themselves.
If they ARE NOT then they are just a glorified version of "Question Time"...and when was the last time you saw Nick/Dave/Ed on that? In which case it's just a load of fluff.
As others have pointed out, the amount of attacks against Cameron would seem to suggest that those the oppose the Conservatives have realised the only hope they had was that the debates would go ahead and that Cameron would make a mistake and so Ed would win by not being as bad as people think he is.
Most people I know think Cameron is a far better leader than Miliband (even the Labour supporters) and so Miliband would just have to do "OK" given how poorly he is thought of, even by his own side.
What a ringing endorsement of your leader.
What about those that would consider themselves conservative, but are embarrassed by the actions of the leader? Or do you think they don't exist?
As I said last night, I think the letter that Craig Oliver sent out fully illustrated the way that Downing Street are going to try and spin this, namely to blame the broadcasters for charging on ahead without giving them due consultation and creating a "chaotic" situation.
That's exactly how Grant Schapps was spinning it on the Daily Politics this morning - it was all the broadcasters' fault
More than likely - I'll let you know. You made up your own mind?
Same as last time. I live in a Labour- Conservative marginal, and, as the prospect of more Tory government (I use the phrase advisedly) fills me with horror it leaves me with little choice but to vote Labour, as the slightly lesser of two evils.
If it was a Lib Dem - Tory marginal I would vote for the former.
Whatever the harm from debating with that political giant Ed Miliband would have been, it was surely less than running away from the debate.
Not really - imagine it was a boxing match with Wladimir Klitschko taking on Ed Miliband.
Everyone would expect Miliband to be destroyed in the first round. If he made it to round two before being carried out to the ambulance then people would think he had done "really well" and his personal rating would improve (not that it could get much lower).
If the "media debates" ARE part of the official election campaign it should be for the Electoral Commission & OFCOM to determine the format/participation on the basis of rational criteria...NOT something for mainly foreign owned media companies/politicians to stitch up between themselves.
If they ARE NOT then they are just a glorified version of "Question Time"...and when was the last time you saw Nick/Dave/Ed on that? In which case it's just a load of fluff.
Odd then that it's Cameron himself who now wants the debates to take place outside of the election period.
I don't think the law will allow them to "empty chair" Cameron.
If they have issued the invitation, and Cameron has declined ..... them maybe it would be allowed (just like any other programme or discussion where one groups is invited to take part or to put their side of the story, but either refuse to appear or "have no-one available"
Similarly if the debates take place before the election campaign gets underway.
That is not what is proposed though is it? It is a 1-1.
I love all this faux outrage. The I-agree-with-Nick outcome from last time worked out so well didn't it?
there is no "faux" outrage as far as I can see, there is however an air of almost disbelief that a prime minister of this country is running away from a fight, and that many of his supporters excuse this by saying, "it's perfectly acceptable to run away from a fight you might not win"
and he is the leader of the party who gave us Winston Churchill and Maggie Thatcher, 2 Tories who are not really noted for running away from a fight just because there's a chance they might not win. I am no fan of Thatcher, but she was twice the man HE will ever be.
It's very different this time, a province of the UK is being wholly excluded to the benefit of England, Wales and Scotland. That is fundamentally wrong.
Nope what is "fundamentally wrong" is a prime minister who said, and I quote,
“If you want the TV debates to go ahead you have got to do it fairly between the main parties and look, having said I want them, having challenged people to have them and quite right, Sky saying let’s have them, it would have been feeble to find some excuse to back out so I thought we’ve got to stick at this, we’ve got to do it. It will be challenging, it was, but I think I came through them.”
the above is one of ten quotes from the link in which Cameron expressed staunch support for the debates the most recent one being from April LAST YEAR when he said,
“Blair pulled out against, against Major and Major pulled out against Kinnock, Thatcher pulled out against Callaghan. I’ve just always believed that these need to happen. It’s good for democracy. It’s good to see.”
David Cameron and Allan Beswick, BBC Radio Manchester, 16 April 2014
and now we can add Cameron to that list, and from now on he is "feeble Dave" after all, he DID say, "it would have been feeble to find some excuse to back out" David Cameron, Sky News, 3 May 2010
The PM bests Mr Milliband frequently at PMQs, he's not running scared, he is just being tactical..
As I said before no one is debating that he's "being tactical" he's using the 'tactic' of running away from a fight because he might not win.
and as for "besting" Miliband frequently, you do realise that he has a list of questions that are going to be asked as well as a sheet of pre prepared answers? or do you think he comes up with his smart Alec deflections and sneers off the top of his head?
We have seen what happens when he has to go 'off script' out comes the stiff claw hands the bright red face and the shouty spoilt brat. and THAT is what he is terrified of,
Personally I'd like to see the whole thing scrapped and politicians out on their soap boxes but if one is going to go ahead, it should include the whole of the UK and not exclude NI.
Of course you would like to see the whole thing scrapped, it has Cameron cornered,
but the beloved leader seemed to disagree with you. “On TV debates, I’m in favour of them, I think they’re good and we should go on having them and I will certainly play my part in trying to make that happen.” David Cameron, Coalition mid term review, 7th Jan 2012
I will repeat (and will continue to do so until it finally gets through) I was against the debates last time I saw them as yet another American import,
However, what we as individuals think about the 'worth' of the debates is NOT the issue here, the issue is a British prime minister who lacks the confidence in his beliefs, principles and 'achievements' to the point where he is risking public ridicule by running away rather than to stand up and fight for what he believes in and for the people who support and trust him (he certainly does not deserve the unfaltering loyalty that some are displaying) because there is a chance he might lose,
we have a word for people like that and it stars with 'C' and ends with oward.
and lets not miss what has just happened here, a British prime minister and leader of a COALITION governement, he didn't even get the mandate of a working majority FFS, has just dictated to the broadcasters (in a 'free' and democratic country) under what conditions he will take part in an election debate, who can take part, when it should happen, and how long it will last, and that there will be only one.
If they have issued the invitation, and Cameron has declined ..... them maybe it would be allowed (just like any other programme or discussion where one groups is invited to take part or to put their side of the story, but either refuse to appear or "have no-one available"
Similarly if the debates take place before the election campaign gets underway.
Before the election campaign then yes it would be possible but if they don't invite "everyone" then the legal challenges would likely kill the debates before they could take place in advance of the "election period" as laid out by Ofcom.
I Think Cameron has missed a trick here probably at the last hurdle as it was going pretty well for him with the 7 way farcical leaders debate. That was covered and a guaranteed free for all which would have embarrassed Ed Miliband along with Farage + SNP and the Greens.
Now today I do think he is shown some weakness. The GBP and the media faced with the prospect of Cameron turning down a 1v1 debate with Miliband would automatically assume that the PM was in fact worried he might lose. Even in declining he has made given ground to Miliband.
Ed can now say that Cameron is weak but that argument may not last very long in the political cycle.
I don't think the law will allow them to "empty chair" Cameron.
I think you might find there is no "law" currently on the books will help here.
I'm pretty sure the debates are scheduled for outside the time between the formal dissolution of parliament and election day...during which time the Electoral Commission rules and OFCOM rules will apply.
It has been my point since day one on this that if we are going to move to mass media debates WITHIN or very close too the formal period of election campaigning it should be OFCOM and the Electoral Commission as bodies who are independent of media/commercial interests and political parties who should be laying down rules based on rationality.
And the need for that is more pressing than ever if we are going to stick with fixed term parliaments in the future when the dates for dissolution/election day etc will be known well in advance.
I do not understand (well I do) how everyone has been sleepwalking or led by the nose by media corporations into what are important issues around the whole conduct of fair elections in this country.
I Think Cameron has missed a trick here probably at the last hurdle as it was going pretty well for him with the 7 way farcical leaders debate. That was covered and a guaranteed free for all which would have embarrassed Ed Miliband along with Farage + SNP and the Greens.
Now today I do think he is shown some weakness. The GBP and the media faced with the prospect of Cameron turning down a 1v1 debate with Miliband would automatically assume that the PM was in fact worried he might lose. Even in declining he has made given ground to Miliband.
Ed can now say that Cameron is weak but that argument may not last very long in the political cycle.
Very true. I remember Tony Blair being chased by a chicken in 1997 and that did not last long.
I suspect there are far more Labour supporters embarrassed by Miliband than there are Conservatives who are embarrassed by Cameron.
Really? I am actually proud of EM, he has from the start said that he is prepared to debate with whoever the TV companies invite no ducking and dodging or trying to dictate to the media in that statement.
it's not for politicians no matter how self important they feel, to set the agenda of any political debate in a free and democratic society.
Even if Kim Jong Cameron thinks it's acceptable.
I think you might find there is no "law" currently on the books will help here.
I'm pretty sure the debates are scheduled for outside the time between the formal dissolution of parliament and election day...during which time the Electoral Commission rules and OFCOM rules will apply.
It has been my point since day one on this that if we are going to move to mass media debates WITHIN or very close too the formal period of election campaigning it should be OFCOM and the Electoral Commission as bodies who are independent of media/commercial interests and political parties who should be laying down rules based on rationality.
And the need for that is more pressing than ever if we are going to stick with fixed term parliaments in the future when the dates for dissolution/election day etc will be known well in advance.
I do not understand (well I do) how everyone has been sleepwalking or led by the nose by media corporations into what are important issues around the whole conduct of fair elections in this country.
As mentioned in another post, I think the legal challenges could scupper all the debates and could not be sorted out before we entered into the election period.
Why is it odd? He doesn't want the campaign itself distracted.
What campaign? I'm not convinced there will be any serious campaign outside of the debates. Just the Tories spending shed loads of money on billboards and the right wing press throwing mud at Ed Miliband.
Comments
If the "media debates" ARE part of the official election campaign it should be for the Electoral Commission & OFCOM to determine the format/participation on the basis of rational criteria...NOT something for mainly foreign owned media companies/politicians to stitch up between themselves.
If they ARE NOT then they are just a glorified version of "Question Time"...and when was the last time you saw Nick/Dave/Ed on that? In which case it's just a load of fluff.
What about those that would consider themselves conservative, but are embarrassed by the actions of the leader? Or do you think they don't exist?
Given the way the media works, this will be a story for a few days and then attention will switch to the budget.
I expect a very political budget - along the lines of the last Darling budget when he raised the top rate of tax to 50%.
I have no idea what the Chancellor will do as the "rabbit out of the hat" but I bet it will get a lot of headlines and make life tough for Labour.
I suspect there are far more Labour supporters embarrassed by Miliband than there are Conservatives who are embarrassed by Cameron.
That's exactly how Grant Schapps was spinning it on the Daily Politics this morning - it was all the broadcasters' fault
Same as last time. I live in a Labour- Conservative marginal, and, as the prospect of more Tory government (I use the phrase advisedly) fills me with horror it leaves me with little choice but to vote Labour, as the slightly lesser of two evils.
If it was a Lib Dem - Tory marginal I would vote for the former.
Not really - imagine it was a boxing match with Wladimir Klitschko taking on Ed Miliband.
Everyone would expect Miliband to be destroyed in the first round. If he made it to round two before being carried out to the ambulance then people would think he had done "really well" and his personal rating would improve (not that it could get much lower).
It will come back in to the public mind when the debates start.
I don't think the law will allow them to "empty chair" Cameron.
Odd then that it's Cameron himself who now wants the debates to take place outside of the election period.
They could always have a Miliband, Clegg and Farage final if chicken can't make it.
Similarly if the debates take place before the election campaign gets underway.
there is no "faux" outrage as far as I can see, there is however an air of almost disbelief that a prime minister of this country is running away from a fight, and that many of his supporters excuse this by saying, "it's perfectly acceptable to run away from a fight you might not win"
and he is the leader of the party who gave us Winston Churchill and Maggie Thatcher, 2 Tories who are not really noted for running away from a fight just because there's a chance they might not win.
I am no fan of Thatcher, but she was twice the man HE will ever be.
Nope what is "fundamentally wrong" is a prime minister who said, and I quote, David Cameron, Sky News, 3 May 2010
http://labourlist.org/2015/01/10-times-david-cameron-praised-tv-debates/
the above is one of ten quotes from the link in which Cameron expressed staunch support for the debates the most recent one being from April LAST YEAR when he said, David Cameron and Allan Beswick, BBC Radio Manchester, 16 April 2014
and now we can add Cameron to that list, and from now on he is "feeble Dave" after all, he DID say,
"it would have been feeble to find some excuse to back out"
David Cameron, Sky News, 3 May 2010
As I said before no one is debating that he's "being tactical" he's using the 'tactic' of running away from a fight because he might not win.
and as for "besting" Miliband frequently, you do realise that he has a list of questions that are going to be asked as well as a sheet of pre prepared answers? or do you think he comes up with his smart Alec deflections and sneers off the top of his head?
We have seen what happens when he has to go 'off script' out comes the stiff claw hands the bright red face and the shouty spoilt brat. and THAT is what he is terrified of,
Of course you would like to see the whole thing scrapped, it has Cameron cornered,
but the beloved leader seemed to disagree with you.
“On TV debates, I’m in favour of them, I think they’re good and we should go on having them and I will certainly play my part in trying to make that happen.”
David Cameron, Coalition mid term review, 7th Jan 2012
I will repeat (and will continue to do so until it finally gets through) I was against the debates last time I saw them as yet another American import,
However, what we as individuals think about the 'worth' of the debates is NOT the issue here, the issue is a British prime minister who lacks the confidence in his beliefs, principles and 'achievements' to the point where he is risking public ridicule by running away rather than to stand up and fight for what he believes in and for the people who support and trust him (he certainly does not deserve the unfaltering loyalty that some are displaying) because there is a chance he might lose,
we have a word for people like that and it stars with 'C' and ends with oward.
and lets not miss what has just happened here, a British prime minister and leader of a COALITION governement, he didn't even get the mandate of a working majority FFS, has just dictated to the broadcasters (in a 'free' and democratic country) under what conditions he will take part in an election debate, who can take part, when it should happen, and how long it will last, and that there will be only one.
Did I just wake up in China or North Korea?
Before the election campaign then yes it would be possible but if they don't invite "everyone" then the legal challenges would likely kill the debates before they could take place in advance of the "election period" as laid out by Ofcom.
Now today I do think he is shown some weakness. The GBP and the media faced with the prospect of Cameron turning down a 1v1 debate with Miliband would automatically assume that the PM was in fact worried he might lose. Even in declining he has made given ground to Miliband.
Ed can now say that Cameron is weak but that argument may not last very long in the political cycle.
I think you might find there is no "law" currently on the books will help here.
I'm pretty sure the debates are scheduled for outside the time between the formal dissolution of parliament and election day...during which time the Electoral Commission rules and OFCOM rules will apply.
It has been my point since day one on this that if we are going to move to mass media debates WITHIN or very close too the formal period of election campaigning it should be OFCOM and the Electoral Commission as bodies who are independent of media/commercial interests and political parties who should be laying down rules based on rationality.
And the need for that is more pressing than ever if we are going to stick with fixed term parliaments in the future when the dates for dissolution/election day etc will be known well in advance.
I do not understand (well I do) how everyone has been sleepwalking or led by the nose by media corporations into what are important issues around the whole conduct of fair elections in this country.
Really? I am actually proud of EM, he has from the start said that he is prepared to debate with whoever the TV companies invite no ducking and dodging or trying to dictate to the media in that statement.
it's not for politicians no matter how self important they feel, to set the agenda of any political debate in a free and democratic society.
Even if Kim Jong Cameron thinks it's acceptable.
Ooh I see what you did there! Can I have a go:
Ed "the duck" Miliband
As mentioned in another post, I think the legal challenges could scupper all the debates and could not be sorted out before we entered into the election period.
What campaign? I'm not convinced there will be any serious campaign outside of the debates. Just the Tories spending shed loads of money on billboards and the right wing press throwing mud at Ed Miliband.
Really? If this were a local election debate in some town hall and one of the invitged candidates refused to attend, I'm sure it would still go ahead.