[a516]

Originally Posted by 2Bdecided

Given that DVB-Tx doesn't include HEVC yet, and there are no boxes or TVs that support it yet, I can't see how it can be "as viable" in five years time as an 11 stream mux broadcast today using a standard which everyone can receive and decode.

I guess these things are all inevitable, but while I can see T2 taking over in the medium term (five years), HEVC will take longer, and may "never" be applied to SD channels.

Cheers,
David.

I wouldn't agree with using HEVC on SD channels, but with regards to viability - at the moment it's commercially viable to run a 11-12 stream multiplex with lower costs to broadcasters, and it would be just a viable to run a 11-12 stream multiplex in HEVC by 2018-2020, if devices start coming out shortly. Compared to a DVB-T2 MPEG4 5 stream multiplex - it has the same costs for the transmitter network, but there are only five paying customers for each stream, therefore the cost for the broadcaster would be higher, and it might be cheaper for them to stick with satellite and cable only - therefore it could well be difficult to fill several 5 stream DVB-T2 MPEG4 multiplexes. Only if SD channels are included on DVB-T2 MPEG4 would it work financially. But it would be a waste if DVB-T2 HEVC was used for SD.

Many SD channels could fit on the multiplexes using DVB-T2 - but they will struggle to fill them with decent services. Niche channels are launching in the dozens online, with Vision TV Network / Connect TV now providing a gateway to the latest TV sets for such channels. Stations like Russia Today may have never come on linear Freeview had such a service been around just two years ago. Sports and premium services are now unlikely to take Freeview spectrum - Sky's future services are being delivered by YouView and Roku, BT and TalkTalk are building out their networks to carry linear channels. No chance of having more UKTV channels on board Freeview - UKTV now has deals with BT and Talk Talk, and doesn't need to worry about expensive Freeview carriage contracts.

All of a sudden, limiting future multiplexes to just 11 streams with DVB-T2 HEVC reduces supply to keep prices from falling too far. Will that mean unaffordable costs for broadcasters? No. Carriage costs have already dropped from their 2005 peaks, and would be likely to be surpressed due to the onset of stiff competition from web-based distribution methods. Restricting supply will stop prices free-falling and ensure that the terrestrial network remains viable.

At the same time, multiplex operators can offer viewers and broadcasters something unique - an efficient use of bandwidth on the airwaves to distribute higher quality pictures, especially services that thrive on providing live linear content rather than dramas and films that can be watched on demand.

I dare say that by the time the current multiplex licences expire during the 2020-2025 period, you could have just DVB-T2 multiplexes - either in HEVC or MPEG4. Using HEVC you could easily bring the PSB muxes down to 2 multiplexes (with potential for more videostreams than on the current 3 multiplexes using a minimum of 720p) and reduce the COM muxes down to 2. A total of 4 multiplexes (plus local in interleaved spectrum), meaning an easy clearance of the 700 MHz band and increased adoption of broadband or satellite to provide additional services. A picture "upgrade" to a minimum of 720p also respects the fact that many viewers have larger screens than they did just 15-20 years ago when 21 inches was the norm.

That would give DVB-T no more than around 12 years to survive. Mind you, 12 years ago we all used either analogue or OnDigital DVB-T 2k equipment for terrestrial - and none of that equipment can be used today* to receive terrestrial TV without an additional set top box...

Internet availability remains an issue in some areas, and data caps remain an issue - however both BT and TalkTalk will be offering tariffs allowing unlimited YouView access - so the tide may have to turn for other ISPs in this regard. Outlying areas can be given internet access via satellite - as is already starting to happen in some parts of the world.

Big changes - but then again TV and the way we watch it has changed such a lot in the last 20 years...


(*or from the autumn in the NE and N Ireland)

[chrisy]

Originally Posted by a516

I wouldn't agree with using HEVC on SD channels, but with regards to viability - at the moment it's commercially viable to run a 11-12 stream multiplex with lower costs to broadcasters, and it would be just a viable to run a 11-12 stream multiplex in HEVC by 2018-2020, if devices start coming out shortly.

There's no indication that they will ever appear, and a commercial mux operator is not going to start up an FTA service with 0 potential viewers. In your timescales, maybe, but in the temporary mux timescales, definitely not.

Compared to a DVB-T2 MPEG4 5 stream multiplex - it has the same costs for the transmitter network, but there are only five paying customers for each stream, therefore the cost for the broadcaster would be higher, and it might be cheaper for them to stick with satellite and cable only - therefore it could well be difficult to fill several 5 stream DVB-T2 MPEG4 multiplexes.

At least one of these temporary 600MHz muxes will go to the PSBs. They have said before that they are interested in getting their hands on more HD spectrum. If ITV and C4 join forces, without the other PSBs, to get "D34-HD", they could immediately put on something like E4 HD, Film4 HD, ITV2 HD, ITV3 HD and ITV4 HD - or even just put on the channels that are missing from the existing HD mux (not all are available in HD currently of course) - ITV1+1 HD, ITV2 HD, C4+1 HD, E4 HD, More4 HD. When the temp mux arrangement expires - whoosh! - replace D34 with D34-HD. The BBC could get the other one and do the same thing - CBBC HD/BBC3HD, Cbeebies HD/BBC4HD, BBC News HD, BBC Parliament HD (!), 301HD.

Two years down the line, we have three HD muxes broadcasting from all transmitters. The commercial muxes would also switch as everybody would have DVB-T2 compatible equipment by then. Whether they use them for SD or HD is their business, but I would expect a mixture of SD and 720p (except SDN will undoubtedly broadcast QVC HD in glorious 1080p, and cram everything else in at SD 3/4 resolution)

I think that's more likely than commercial muxes jumping onto a bandwagon that hasn't even been built yet, and might not even be deemed suitable for use by Ofcom.

Many SD channels could fit on the multiplexes using DVB-T2 - but they will struggle to fill them with decent services.

I think "decent services" went out the window in about 2004. Now it's all about who waves the biggest wad of notes under Arqiva's nose. SDN have always been like that of course.

[lf2k7]

Does anyone honestly think that there'll be 6 or more muxs in a 5-10 years time?

I don't see this happening...

HEVC needs to be able to work on low powered devices in order to boost adoption - AVC support is almost ubiquitous now, but there aren't many cheapo Freeview boxes able to do anything with it. This is further complicated by the fact that in this country we tend to put AVC on a DVB-T2 mux and DVB-T2 receivers are still the preserve of the mid to high-end....

I suspect Ofcom will eventually get off their backsides and mandate T2 as a prerequisite of keeping a broadcast licence, because (if left to the market) its not going to happen unless its forced upon people.

They will do this in order to sell more spectrum for LTE - and once there's some LTE in this country, there'll be a demand for more after a while... it's a shame that OFCOM haven't got the balls to allow EE to use 1800MHz for LTE, since that would alleviate some of the pressure <1GHz.

Obviously with LTE you will be able to do "broadcast" TV as well - there seems to be some support for this already.

Also, LTE isn't just for mobile phones, but could be used in place of FTTC or whatever...

Whilst migrating people over to DVB-T2 would be a good thing, since it would mean that all channels could be HD (they won't, but they could be) or a mixture of HD and SD with no simulcasting as is the case with the BBCB mux, I don't see that as using HEVC just yet.

Back to the OP... those 20 channels could easily be things like "The Space" or other IPTV channels. BBC IPlayer "HD" is 1280x720, so expect more of the same...

[tom558]

Just a quick one,anybody ?
Was reading on another forum that the new Humax YouView PVR,will not display subtitles on recorded content playback,this assumes subtitles on the original transmission,of course.

This can't be right can it? will anyone who has the new Humax just try it for me.

[gomezz]

You may find someone willing to give that a go for you if you didn't bury the request in the middle of an unrelated thread but started a new thread or used one of the existing Youview threads.

[tom558]

Originally Posted by gomezz

You may find someone willing to give that a go for you if you didn't bury the request in the middle of an unrelated thread but started a new thread or used one of the existing Youview threads.

Yes that's fine,but it was just a quick dip in request,and I started this thread,in the first place.

[nepotism46]

I've been told that mpeg-2 only boxes will be gradually phased out, and DVB-T2 will be the standard in about 2 years time. This is due to the selling of of a quarter of the TV spectrum for the 4G internet phones. MPEG-2 is now old and DVB-T2 would solve a lot of problems. Looks like it's all going to go DVB-T2 for everything.

[David (2)]

It will happen but when. Lots of T1 stuff in use inc a lot of brand new tv's. You can add a box but a lot if people would feel conned. My auntie is a pensioner and can only operate a standalone tv just using the number buttons to switch channels.

[figrin_dan]

Originally Posted by nepotism46

I've been told that mpeg-2 only boxes will be gradually phased out, and DVB-T2 will be the standard in about 2 years time. This is due to the selling of of a quarter of the TV spectrum for the 4G internet phones. MPEG-2 is now old and DVB-T2 would solve a lot of problems. Looks like it's all going to go DVB-T2 for everything.

It sounds like you are mixing MPEG with DVB-T. MPEG is the video compression. MPEG-2 is used for SD MPEG-4 is used for HD. DVB-T/T2 is the data modulation. DVB-T is used for SD, DVB-T2 is used for HD (in the uk).

Just because these are what are used at the moment, it doesn't mean that any one of these cannot be used for another. ie You can get HD in DVB-T/MPEG-2 in other countries.

[Nigel Goodwin]

Originally Posted by nepotism46

I've been told that mpeg-2 only boxes will be gradually phased out, and DVB-T2 will be the standard in about 2 years time.

Who told you that load of rubbish?, and why did you believe them?.

[grahamlthompson]

Originally Posted by nepotism46

I've been told that mpeg-2 only boxes will be gradually phased out, and DVB-T2 will be the standard in about 2 years time. This is due to the selling of of a quarter of the TV spectrum for the 4G internet phones. MPEG-2 is now old and DVB-T2 would solve a lot of problems. Looks like it's all going to go DVB-T2 for everything.

So every SD TV, every SD pvr will need replacing in 2 yrs. That's a ridicolous suggestion. You can go into John Lewis and buy a new HD TV now without Freeview-HD and get a 5 year warranty.

[figrin_dan]

I could understand if every new channel used DVB-T2/MPEG-4. That would get people updating (spending)

[mossy2103]

Originally Posted by figrin_dan

I could understand if every new channel used DVB-T2/MPEG-4. That would get people updating (spending)

and moaning of course.

[grahamlthompson]

Originally Posted by figrin_dan

I could understand if every new channel used DVB-T2/MPEG-4. That would get people updating (spending)

Bit of a vicious circle. Limited audience would put off anyone wanting to launch a new channel, advertisers wouldn't be interested either.

[reslfj]

Originally Posted by figrin_dan

It sounds like you are mixing MPEG with DVB-T. MPEG is the video compression. MPEG-2 is used for SD MPEG-4 is used for HD. ..... DVB-T is used for SD, DVB-T2 is used for HD (in the uk).

... You can get HD in DVB-T/MPEG-2 in other countries.

MPEG-2/MPEG-4 and DVB-T/T2 is in the UK, however, paired via the D-Book receiver specification and by the limited transmission modes allowed by Ofcom.

In Northern Ireland SD channels will be broadcast with the DVB-T2 and MPEG4 standards from October 24 (RTE 1-2 and TG4 in SD format).
In other countries - e.g. Denmark, Finland, Russia, Serbia, South Africa - DVB-T2/MPEG-4 is used for both SD and HD channels (some places just SD channels)

The DVB-T/MPEG-2 sold i Europe does not support HD channels. The MPEG-2 chips used in Europe need only support the SD formats. Even some early MPEG-4 boxes did not support HD (e.g. the picnic box)

Originally Posted by grahamlthompson

So every SD TV, every SD pvr will need replacing in 2 yrs. ... buy a new HD TV now without Freeview-HD and get a 5 year warranty.

The warranty you get has nothing to do with the way you can or can't use the TV set. It relates 100% to working within the TV sets written specifications.
Such an assumption is #¤%& and very misleading.

I don't think the last DVB-T mux will close within the next 5 years, but I am sure more DVB-T muxes will convert to DVB-T2 within 5 years and some even much faster.
The cost benefit of using DVB-T2/MPEG-4 is huge for the broadcasters.

I think the new Belfast local mux next year may decide to use DVB-T2 from Divis. It will get a much more robust coverage and/or a higher capacity. Very many in Belfast is already expected to have newer FreeviewHD equipment due to the late DSO in NI and to Saorview / NImux.

Originally Posted by figrin_dan

I could understand if every new channel used DVB-T2/MPEG-4. That would get people updating (spending)

You have to change a mux from DVB-T to DVB-T2 - not just individual channels.
Spending is not needed, but it is important to tell people "If you do spend on a new TV set - be sure to get a FreeviewHD model even for the small 19" models"

Lars

PS! Spending on consumer electronics is not likely to benefit the economy much (import, post order delivery and pure consumption). Far better for the national economy to spend/invest in infrastructure and production.

[grahamlthompson]

Originally Posted by reslfj

The warranty you get has nothing to do with the way you can or can't use the TV set. It relates 100% to working within the TV sets written specifications.
Such an assumption is #¤%& and very misleading.

.

5 years isn't 2 years as suggested in the post I responded to. The 5 yr warranty was merely an indication that suggesting DVB-T will have gone in 2yrs is patently ridicolous

In other words very misleading

[reslfj]

Originally Posted by grahamlthompson

5 years isn't 2 years as suggested in the post I responded to. The 5 yr warranty was merely an indication that suggesting DVB-T will have gone in 2yrs is patently ridicolous

But I find it likely that one or more of the main muxes will have converted to DVB-T2 before 2015.

You may find it very unfair, but the COM mux owners and their channel customers only count people below the age of 50 and with some buyng power. Most within this group will have FreeviewHD/DVB-T2 equipment long before 2015

When the local muxes get into the planing phase, DVB-T2 will look very attractive at some sites - Belfast ? London ? other late-DSO areas ? - not just for the extra capacity, but maybe even more for the much better and more robust coverage possible with DVB-T2.
I know this is not in the official plans for local TV - but plans can change - I guess they will.

Lars

[grahamlthompson]

Originally Posted by reslfj

But I find it likely that one or more of the main muxes will have converted to DVB-T2 before 2015.

You may find it very unfair, but the COM mux owners and their channel customers only count people below the age of 50 and with some buyng power. Most within this group will have FreeviewHD/DVB-T2 equipment long before 2015

.

Lars

It's not unfair for me I have no problem with DVB-T2, it's vastly unfair to miillions of pensioners and other less tecchie viewers subjecting them to what is effect DSO2 so close to analogue shutdown. It would be political suicide for the government. We shall of course have to wait and see.

Actually many pensioners (me included) have more disposable income than many in work.

Graham

[late8]

Originally Posted by soulboy77

What's the betting one of the new HD services will be QVC HD!

Yep..

Including

BidTV HD
Bid up TV HD
Bid down TV HD
Bid all around TV HD
Buy this TV HD
Buy that TV HD

... Ironically my list is much smaller than the actual selection of utter crap taking up Freeview.

[chrisy]

Which raises the question... if an HD shopping channel were to launch, would it go in with the HD "genre"?

There are 6 news channels, 3 kid's channels, 8 adult channels (all with their own genre grouping)..... and 12 shopping channels (13 if you count Manchester's ARGOS TV 24/7), yet shopping is lumped in with general entertainment!

[kev]

Originally Posted by late8

Yep..

Including

BidTV HD
Bid up TV HD
Bid down TV HD
Bid all around TV HD
Buy this TV HD
Buy that TV HD

... Ironically my list is much smaller than the actual selection of utter crap taking up Freeview.

Hmm, I rescanned my Humax last night - of the 91 TV channels it found on the network scan I was left with 42 after deleting the shopping, slapper, and tat channels.

[raymogy]

how you get 13 shopping channels on freeview?

bid
price
qvc
ideal world
argos
and the other 8 are?

[figrin_dan]

Originally Posted by reslfj

You have to change a mux from DVB-T to DVB-T2 - not just individual channels.

Obviously I was talking about new channels on new muxes

[chrisy]

Originally Posted by raymogy

how you get 13 shopping channels on freeview?

16 QVC
22 Ideal World
23 bid
35 QVC Beauty
36 Create & Craft
37 price drop
39 The Zone
40 Rocks & Co 1
43 Gems TV
49 The Jewellery Channel
55 ARGOS TV
59 ARGOS TV 24/7
61 Marketplace