A lot of people are too quick to hold up the homophobic card when that is not the issue here.
I know a kid who is being raised by his dad and uncle (brothers). He is definitely missing the woman's influence at home & the softness a mother brings. A mother does have a valid job in bringing up children. Also, look at Michael Jackson. He got to buy some kids, he wasn't gay (as far as I know). Would MJ's kids have grown up ok without a mother?
You seem to be the one with the reading comprehension prob.
Other than correcting your statement about why he couldn't adopt this Ukranian child - which I see you've ignored - I mention nothing about his sexuality other than where relevant (his marriage.) My post is entirely counter arguments to yours about his so-called selfishness.
Ah well, I'll just have to assume that you have no ammunition left - not that you had any to begin with.
Lexi22 what utter rubbish falls out of your mouth! Its a debate and not about who gets the better of someone else, for goodness sake
As I have mentioned to you BEFORE (and you are starting to bore the living daylights out of me) its about his selfishness and shouts out that money (in EJ case) can buy you what you want, even a baby. Some countries seem to have more morals than others.
I didnt ignore your correction, the point I was making again which clearly flew in one ear and out the other (through that huge gap you have developed in between) is that even if he was too old, if there was a chance to buy the child he would (because thats EJ).
Lexi22 what utter rubbish falls out of your mouth! Its a debate and not about who gets the better of someone else, for goodness sake
As I have mentioned to you BEFORE (and you are starting to bore the living daylights out of me) its about his selfishness and shouts out that money (in EJ case) can buy you what you want, even a baby. Some countries seem to have more morals than others.
I didnt ignore your correction, the point I was making again which clearly flew in one ear and out the other (through that huge gap you have developed in between) is that even if he was too old, if there was a chance to buy the child he would (because thats EJ).
Ammunition, how utterly rediculous and sad
I'm ignoring your hysteria here and just answering the point re the Ukranian boy. Do you know for a fact that he tried to buy the child? They were turned down because of the reasons I gave earlier. Are you privvy to info that none of the rest of us are, that he then tried to buy the child and bypass the country's adoption restrictions? If so, please let's have the details. Are you also aware that he, following his failure to adopt, pledged ongoing support for the little boy and his brother to ensure they had good medical care etc?
Little bit more info on this from US Weekly:
"Earlier this year, their petition to adopt was declined by the Ukranian authorities, and Furnish told the BBC that they were “massively gutted” by the rejection. Since then, Furnish and John have worked tirelessly behind the scenes through Ukranian lawyers to find Lev and Artyom a happy home.
Furnish commented: “Although Ukranian law does not permit Elton and I to adopt Lev and Artyom, we are determined to give them the best chance of living a happy and healthy life with a loving Ukranian family. The arrival of our son has done nothing but strengthen our resolve to help these two wonderful children. We are, however, constrained by Ukranian policy and legal procedure, and this is why for the past 12 months we have retained a leading Ukranian law firm to assist us in this process.”
Does the above sound selfish and self-involved? I think not.
CSP is proud to have helped David Furnish and Elton John become the proud parents of a baby boy on Christmas Day.
There's speculation the child may have two mothers.
He was born to an unidentified surrogate mother who, it emerged last night, was not his biological mother but had carried the baby after being implanted with a donor egg from another mystery woman.
“We’re like the Disneyland of the fertility world, or the Egg-o-land, if you will,” Fay Johnson, a programme co-ordinator for the Centre for Surrogate Parenting in Encino, told the San Francisco Chronicle, amid growing concern over reproductive tourism this week.
Interestingly....
A handful of Californian clinics will also allow future parents to choose the sex of their offspring.
Lexi22 what utter rubbish falls out of your mouth! Its a debate and not about who gets the better of someone else, for goodness sake
As I have mentioned to you BEFORE (and you are starting to bore the living daylights out of me) its about his selfishness and shouts out that money (in EJ case) can buy you what you want, even a baby. Some countries seem to have more morals than others.
I didnt ignore your correction, the point I was making again which clearly flew in one ear and out the other (through that huge gap you have developed in between) is that even if he was too old, if there was a chance to buy the child he would (because thats EJ).
Ammunition, how utterly rediculous and sad
I really don't get where you are coming from with the argument that he is so selfish he would buy a child? Do you have something against him personally? Plenty of people use surrogacy/ivf, both procedures which cost money and result in a child. Do you consider all people who pay for surrogacy/ivf selfish, or just rich people or just Elton John?
Wanting children is a natural desire and one that perpetuates the species. Elton had the means to full fill this and writing him off as selfish, before we've even seen what kind of a parent he is, is very.....*scratches head*.......I can't think of a word. We don't know why he went down the surrogacy route. Perhaps he tried adoption/fostering and it didn't work out. As Lexi pointed out, he is going to contribute to the Ukraine boys upbringing, so he can't be all bad.
Here is a quote from someone on the GD forum, where they're having the same discussion
There is a lot of assumption here that the surrogate will be out of the child's life - maybe that will be the case but I have three surrogate children and all of them are still an important part of my life, maybe they will have a similar situation.
I think someone who's had three surrogate children knows far more what they're talking about than any of us here.
"Earlier this year, their petition to adopt was declined by the Ukranian authorities.....
Furnish commented:......
Does the above sound selfish and self-involved? I think not.
No doubt Elton John loves David Furnish but is he equally in love with the idea of caring for a baby?
Elton was recently quoted as saying at 62 he was to old have a child and his busy schedule was an issue he said he constantly said no to David Furnish's desire.
The reason given for the change of mind (the death of a friend) and the speed of locating a child don't seem right.
Now at 63 and about to set of on a 6 month World Tour he is presented with a child on Christmas Day.
Both partners are said to be joyous but is Elton's joy because David is happy?
Being polite, Elton is known as being a bit of a character and everything having to be just so....
Beechy *Colclough, once his therapist, said: ‘He’s a totally obsessive, compulsive person. If it hadn’t been the alcohol, it would have been the drugs.
If it hadn’t been the drugs, it would have been the food. If it hadn’t been the food it would have been the relationships.
If it hadn’t been relationships, it would have been shopping.’
No doubt Elton John loves David Furnish but is he equally in love with the idea of caring for a baby?
Elton was recently quoted as saying at 62 he was to old have a child and his busy schedule was an issue he said he constantly said no to David Furnish's desire.
The reason given for the change of mind (the death of a friend) and the speed of locating a child don't seem right.
Now at 63 and about to set of on a 6 month World Tour he is presented with a child on Christmas Day.
Both partners are said to be joyous but is Elton's joy because David is happy?
Only Elton John can answer those questions. I'm not sure he reads the DS Showbiz board tho...
A lot of people are too quick to hold up the homophobic card when that is not the issue here.
I know a kid who is being raised by his dad and uncle (brothers). He is definitely missing the woman's influence at home & the softness a mother brings. A mother does have a valid job in bringing up children. Also, look at Michael Jackson. He got to buy some kids, he wasn't gay (as far as I know). Would MJ's kids have grown up ok without a mother?
Michael Jackson is hardly a good example. He was a totally screwed up human being.
I really don't get where you are coming from with the argument that he is so selfish he would buy a child? Do you have something against him personally? Plenty of people use surrogacy/ivf, both procedures which cost money and result in a child. Do you consider all people who pay for surrogacy/ivf selfish, or just rich people or just Elton John?
You really are throwing a lot of different scenarios into the melting pot. IVF is used in the majority of surrogacy arrangements but the majority of those who use IVF are not surrogates. Personally, I think there is a real ethical distinction between those who carry, birth and bring up a child conceived in vitro from whatever genetic combination and those who effectively 'rent' a womb. IVF is relatively commonplace now. Statistically, surrogacy is far from common here because of the strict limitations on its use which protect women and children. That is why some of us object to it's unregulated or poorly regulated use. It 'allows' those (if they are rich enough to shell out £25k or more) to become parents when nature and the laws of their own country would not and it deprives infants (who have no say in the matter) of their real identity.
Oh I don't know. maybe once he's palmed Zach off on one of the 27 nannies, he pops into DS for a quick browse
I'm sure he'd find this thread endlessly fascinating with so many people knowing his inner thoughts, motivations and plans leading up to and after the birth of his 27-nannied baby.
I'm sure he'd find this thread endlessly fascinating with so many people knowing his inner thoughts, motivations and plans leading up to and after the birth of his 27-nannied baby.
I'm quite sure he doesn't give a damn what anyone else thinks. His selfish actions certainly indicate that.
A lot of people are too quick to hold up the homophobic card when that is not the issue here.
I know a kid who is being raised by his dad and uncle (brothers). He is definitely missing the woman's influence at home & the softness a mother brings. A mother does have a valid job in bringing up children. Also, look at Michael Jackson. He got to buy some kids, he wasn't gay (as far as I know). Would MJ's kids have grown up ok without a mother?
I was brought up without my mother as she left and decided to sever ties when i was very young
I never missed it - maybe cause you cant miss what you never had.
men can bring softness its not just a female attribute
You really are throwing a lot of different scenarios into the melting pot. IVF is used in the majority of surrogacy arrangements but the majority of those who use IVF are not surrogates. Personally, I think there is a real ethical distinction between those who carry, birth and bring up a child conceived in vitro from whatever genetic combination and those who effectively 'rent' a womb. IVF is relatively commonplace now. Statistically, surrogacy is far from common here because of the strict limitations on its use which protect women and children. That is why some of us object to it's unregulated or poorly regulated use. It 'allows' those (if they are rich enough to shell out £25k or more) to become parents when nature and the laws of their own country would not and it deprives infants (who have no say in the matter) of their real identity.
Yes I am because I don't believe it's as clear as Elton is a selfish rich man who went out and bought a baby on a whim. When IVF first came out, it was expensive and there was panic and uproar about it but like you say, now it's common place but it's still a mine field, both legally and ethically as people question the morality about what happens to embyro's who are frozen or who are donated for medical experimentation. None of it is black or white and instead of judging Elton, David and Zachiary, I hope it works out well for them.
Only Elton John can answer those questions. I'm not sure he reads the DS Showbiz board tho...
Until a few days ago I didn't know of the Ukrainian adoption attempt.
When I read up on it, the speed of events and the explaination given by Elton gave me concerns.
There have been well publicised events (not denied) that have given an insight into his character, his partner did a reveal all TV programme about Elton, so it's not as if he hasn't made the public aware of the nature of the beast.
Some people have speculated the child will change Elton. At 63 I don't see that happening, Elton is used to getting what he wants and the child may be another example.
Apparently he's due to make another album this year, I don't know why I just can't see Elton bouncing the toddler on his knee while composing at the joanah.
Elton recognises his MTV days have gone, maybe he sees the future as being a regular grinning parent with child on the cover of celeb mags.
Yes I am because I don't believe it's as clear as Elton is a selfish rich man who went out and bought a baby on a whim. When IVF first came out, it was expensive and there was panic and uproar about it but like you say, now it's common place but it's still a mine field, both legally and ethically as people question the morality about what happens to embyro's who are frozen or who are donated for medical experimentation. None of it is black or white and instead of judging Elton, David and Zachiary, I hope it works out well for them.
Well, I agree with a lot of what you write. People and situations are seldom black and white. Any person of goodwill must hope this works out well for the sake of all of them. I would simply say there is a difference, to me, between judging people (who are neither good nor bad but a mixture) and judging their actions. If we don't exercise some judgment (tempered with compassion and humility because we all act stupidly and wrongly) about any public actions but blindly hope for the best, why should anyone act in anything but their own self interest?
I find it quite sad and depressing that whatever rich people want, rich people get. I'm sure if he wanted some cute japanese baby, it could have been arranged, and paid for, but what the heck hes earned it, and can do what the heck he wants with it.
I just hope its not a passing fad, and he grows to love the child
I think it is incredibly selfish !
While I have no doubt the child will be loved and cherished I can see him being without both his fathers at a very young age.
Yes I know that can and has happened to much younger parents but the odds are well stacked in this instance.
I think it is incredibly selfish !
While I have no doubt the child will be loved and cherished I can see him being without both his fathers at a very young age.
Yes I know that can and has happened to much younger parents but the odds are well stacked in this instance.
Elton has bought and paid for this child, we all agree on that one.
Elton will love it, the child is so famous already he knows aged 16/18 he'll go find his egg mother.
Elton has bought and paid for this child, we all agree on that one.
Elton will love it, the child is so famous already he knows aged 16/18 he'll go find his egg mother.
That is the most awful tragic thing in all this. The hunt for the egg donor.
I often want to give my sperm to couples who can't have children. As a single man I will never be in a situation to have children myself, so why not give others a chance to?
Sad but true, in this day and age celebrities can buy anything, even a child. Wonder what he will think when he grows up. Where is my mummy, why have I got two daddy's why are you so old? Call me old fashioned but this sort of thing should not be allowed. There are hundreds of thousands of unwanted children in the world. All IVF and similar treatments should stop.
I find it quite sad and depressing that whatever rich people want, rich people get. I'm sure if he wanted some cute japanese baby, it could have been arranged, and paid for, but what the heck hes earned it, and can do what the heck he wants with it.
I just hope its not a passing fad, and he grows to love the child
That has to be one of the most horrible posts out of all of the horrible posts on this topic so far, and adding a nice little smiley to the end doesn't make it any better.
'Grows to love the child'??? What exactly is so different about Elton John that means he wouldn't already love the child, like any other expectant parent? Why is he being accused of only wanting a child due to some 'passing fad' and not because of simple biological urges like anyone else who wants children?
This child has been brought into the world because both of his parents desperately wanted him.
The ignorance displayed by some posters is actually quite shocking to witness.
This child has been brought into the world because both of his parents desperately wanted him.
That is one of the best points made on this thread. There are so many children born into to this world who aren't wanted and who end up with a crap childhood because their parents see them more as a burden than a blessing.
Comments
his kids are fine
Lexi22 what utter rubbish falls out of your mouth! Its a debate and not about who gets the better of someone else, for goodness sake
As I have mentioned to you BEFORE (and you are starting to bore the living daylights out of me) its about his selfishness and shouts out that money (in EJ case) can buy you what you want, even a baby. Some countries seem to have more morals than others.
I didnt ignore your correction, the point I was making again which clearly flew in one ear and out the other (through that huge gap you have developed in between) is that even if he was too old, if there was a chance to buy the child he would (because thats EJ).
Ammunition, how utterly rediculous and sad
I'm ignoring your hysteria here and just answering the point re the Ukranian boy. Do you know for a fact that he tried to buy the child? They were turned down because of the reasons I gave earlier. Are you privvy to info that none of the rest of us are, that he then tried to buy the child and bypass the country's adoption restrictions? If so, please let's have the details. Are you also aware that he, following his failure to adopt, pledged ongoing support for the little boy and his brother to ensure they had good medical care etc?
Little bit more info on this from US Weekly:
"Earlier this year, their petition to adopt was declined by the Ukranian authorities, and Furnish told the BBC that they were “massively gutted” by the rejection. Since then, Furnish and John have worked tirelessly behind the scenes through Ukranian lawyers to find Lev and Artyom a happy home.
Furnish commented: “Although Ukranian law does not permit Elton and I to adopt Lev and Artyom, we are determined to give them the best chance of living a happy and healthy life with a loving Ukranian family. The arrival of our son has done nothing but strengthen our resolve to help these two wonderful children. We are, however, constrained by Ukranian policy and legal procedure, and this is why for the past 12 months we have retained a leading Ukranian law firm to assist us in this process.”
Does the above sound selfish and self-involved? I think not.
There's speculation the child may have two mothers.
From a 2005 Times article....
Interestingly....
Wanting children is a natural desire and one that perpetuates the species. Elton had the means to full fill this and writing him off as selfish, before we've even seen what kind of a parent he is, is very.....*scratches head*.......I can't think of a word. We don't know why he went down the surrogacy route. Perhaps he tried adoption/fostering and it didn't work out. As Lexi pointed out, he is going to contribute to the Ukraine boys upbringing, so he can't be all bad.
Here is a quote from someone on the GD forum, where they're having the same discussion I think someone who's had three surrogate children knows far more what they're talking about than any of us here.
No doubt Elton John loves David Furnish but is he equally in love with the idea of caring for a baby?
Elton was recently quoted as saying at 62 he was to old have a child and his busy schedule was an issue he said he constantly said no to David Furnish's desire.
The reason given for the change of mind (the death of a friend) and the speed of locating a child don't seem right.
Now at 63 and about to set of on a 6 month World Tour he is presented with a child on Christmas Day.
Both partners are said to be joyous but is Elton's joy because David is happy?
Being polite, Elton is known as being a bit of a character and everything having to be just so....
Only Elton John can answer those questions. I'm not sure he reads the DS Showbiz board tho...
We'll see.
Michael Jackson is hardly a good example. He was a totally screwed up human being.
Oh I don't know. maybe once he's palmed Zach off on one of the 27 nannies, he pops into DS for a quick browse
You really are throwing a lot of different scenarios into the melting pot. IVF is used in the majority of surrogacy arrangements but the majority of those who use IVF are not surrogates. Personally, I think there is a real ethical distinction between those who carry, birth and bring up a child conceived in vitro from whatever genetic combination and those who effectively 'rent' a womb. IVF is relatively commonplace now. Statistically, surrogacy is far from common here because of the strict limitations on its use which protect women and children. That is why some of us object to it's unregulated or poorly regulated use. It 'allows' those (if they are rich enough to shell out £25k or more) to become parents when nature and the laws of their own country would not and it deprives infants (who have no say in the matter) of their real identity.
I'm sure he'd find this thread endlessly fascinating with so many people knowing his inner thoughts, motivations and plans leading up to and after the birth of his 27-nannied baby.
I'm quite sure he doesn't give a damn what anyone else thinks. His selfish actions certainly indicate that.
I was brought up without my mother as she left and decided to sever ties when i was very young
I never missed it - maybe cause you cant miss what you never had.
men can bring softness its not just a female attribute
Until a few days ago I didn't know of the Ukrainian adoption attempt.
When I read up on it, the speed of events and the explaination given by Elton gave me concerns.
There have been well publicised events (not denied) that have given an insight into his character, his partner did a reveal all TV programme about Elton, so it's not as if he hasn't made the public aware of the nature of the beast.
Some people have speculated the child will change Elton. At 63 I don't see that happening, Elton is used to getting what he wants and the child may be another example.
Apparently he's due to make another album this year, I don't know why I just can't see Elton bouncing the toddler on his knee while composing at the joanah.
Elton recognises his MTV days have gone, maybe he sees the future as being a regular grinning parent with child on the cover of celeb mags.
Well, I agree with a lot of what you write. People and situations are seldom black and white. Any person of goodwill must hope this works out well for the sake of all of them. I would simply say there is a difference, to me, between judging people (who are neither good nor bad but a mixture) and judging their actions. If we don't exercise some judgment (tempered with compassion and humility because we all act stupidly and wrongly) about any public actions but blindly hope for the best, why should anyone act in anything but their own self interest?
I just hope its not a passing fad, and he grows to love the child
While I have no doubt the child will be loved and cherished I can see him being without both his fathers at a very young age.
Yes I know that can and has happened to much younger parents but the odds are well stacked in this instance.
Elton has bought and paid for this child, we all agree on that one.
Elton will love it, the child is so famous already he knows aged 16/18 he'll go find his egg mother.
That is the most awful tragic thing in all this. The hunt for the egg donor.
I often want to give my sperm to couples who can't have children. As a single man I will never be in a situation to have children myself, so why not give others a chance to?
By then Elton would be in his 80's and David in his 60's.
What if the child is disappointed in the choice of mothers and thinks Elton with all his money could have bought better mothers?
That has to be one of the most horrible posts out of all of the horrible posts on this topic so far, and adding a nice little smiley to the end doesn't make it any better.
'Grows to love the child'??? What exactly is so different about Elton John that means he wouldn't already love the child, like any other expectant parent? Why is he being accused of only wanting a child due to some 'passing fad' and not because of simple biological urges like anyone else who wants children?
This child has been brought into the world because both of his parents desperately wanted him.
The ignorance displayed by some posters is actually quite shocking to witness.