So it seems I was wrong earlier about the guardian not posting false rape claims. Anyway, it's interesting that not only has the woman been named, but she got a longish sentence and has her photo published.
What I am not suprised about is that Women Against Rape, amongst others, stating that the prosecution should never have gone ahead. They should be ashamed of themselves. The woman was a criminal and deserved all she got for putting an innocent man through that ordeal.
Lets not also forget the ripple effect and the impact it will have on potential convictions for genuine rape victims. I do understand the concerns expressed by Women Against Rape but also believe that their view is short sighted. Some women may be put off bringing genuine cases forward but a major part of that fear is not being believed and false rape allegations dramatically increases the risk that their fears may be realised. False rape allegations affects not only the victim of the accusation, their family and friends but also affects countless other women who have been raped.
But lets also not forget that false rape claims are a tiny fraction of rape cases reported to the police and those reported are only a small fraction of rapes that occur.
[QUOTE=Taglet;73490114...................
But lets also not forget that false rape claims are a tiny fraction of rape cases reported to the police and those reported are only a small fraction of rapes that occur.[/QUOTE]
I agree with your first statement (one study put it at 3%, but that was based on examining a sample of cases already classified as false by the police, suggesting that the true figure is less).
However, can I ask where your second statement comes from, and do you have any evidence? .
Lets not also forget the ripple effect and the impact it will have on potential convictions for genuine rape victims. I do understand the concerns expressed by Women Against Rape but also believe that their view is short sighted. Some women may be put off bringing genuine cases forward but a major part of that fear is not being believed and false rape allegations dramatically increases the risk that their fears may be realised. False rape allegations affects not only the victim of the accusation, their family and friends but also affects countless other women who have been raped.
But lets also not forget that false rape claims are a tiny fraction of rape cases reported to the police and those reported are only a small fraction of rapes that occur.
I would agree, very short sighted, such a prosecution was absolutely necessary and right as it was proved she lied and this was a calculated and systematic campaign against the man , WAR need to think about what would have happened if he had not been able to prove his whereabouts at certain times and she had been believed and a Jury had decided he was guilty, how many years would he have gone to prison for ?
This case and sentence would not put off a genuine victim as a genuine victim is not lieing, the only people it should put off are those that are making the accusation up.
I agree with your first statement (one study put it at 3%, but that was based on examining a sample of cases already classified as false by the police, suggesting that the true figure is less).
However, can I ask where your second statement comes from, and do you have any evidence? .
What is worrying is that if you type her name into google, they display a warning that some results may have been removed due to EU data protection laws. I wonder if she is trying to get the details removed from Google. Frightening. Or if it's the boyfriend. Understandable.
So they are claiming that despite the victim of the false allegations having an alibi for the supposed rapes, he is still guilty of rape and that the woman should be released. Unbelievable. Idiots like this really do women and victims of rapes no favours.
I wonder if they could be taken to court for libel ?
So they are claiming that despite the victim of the false allegations having an alibi for the supposed rapes, he is still guilty of rape and that the woman should be released. Unbelievable. Idiots like this really do women and victims of rapes no favours.
I wonder if they could be taken to court for libel ?
That is absolutely disgraceful and they call themselves a charity who offers support to victims, this is not support this is an agenda driven witch hunt of their own.
I am surprised they have allowed such a press release that basically says even when it is proven a person cannot be guilty that when it is rape they basically are guilty in their eyes and even if it is also proven the accuser made it up and in this case went to elaborate lengths to frame the accused that the accuser should remain anonymous and receive no punishment as she is still a rape victim !
Unbelievable and it is this sort of rubbish that makes it harder for genuine victims . If they have charitable status then I would urge the charity commission to urgently review it .
How seriously can you take a survey which begins "One in 10 women has been raped"?
Let's take the numbers further : "More than 80 per cent of the 1,600 respondents said they did not report their assault to the police". Which meant 20% did.
There are, say 25 million women in this country. According to the survey, 2,500,000 have been raped. Of these, 500,000 reported it to the police. Err... aren't reported rapes about 20,000 a year? (Yes, I agree, 20,000 too many).
And this extract relates to a large proportion of the sample : "Fear of being blamed, because of their clothes or alcohol intake or for staying with an abusive partner, means more than half of the women surveyed in February and March 2012 said they would be too embarrassed or ashamed to report the crime.".
I can believe that 10% of those taking part in the survey were raped, but then I think it was probably a self-selected sample. And, while that has value, the results can't be extrapolated.
Surrey :
The headline is "BETWEEN 70-90% RAPES THOUGHT TO GO UNREPORTED …AND 94% OF REPORTED CASES DON’T END IN A CONVICTION".
"Thought to be" isn't evidence of anything. And "reported cases" has a completely different meaning where rape is concerned, compared to all other crimes.
"Attrition" does not include "when victims are reluctant to report rape in the first instance", nor does it include "jurors prefer to acquit than find defendants guilty". Which is a strange way of saying they were found not guilty. It's almost as though the researchers had made up their minds in advance.
Actually, the conviction rate of cases which come to court is quite high - over 60%.
The final sentence gives a clue that hardly anyone else agrees with their conclusions : "The collection of research papers have (sic) been edited by the lead researchers into a book, called Rape: Challenging Contemporary Thinking."
I'm not saying there's no problems of unreported cases, or of cases which don't come to court. Of course there are, huge problems, but hysterical headlines like this don't help anyone.
How seriously can you take a survey which begins "One in 10 women has been raped"?
Let's take the numbers further : "More than 80 per cent of the 1,600 respondents said they did not report their assault to the police". Which meant 20% did.
There are, say 25 million women in this country. According to the survey, 2,500,000 have been raped. Of these, 500,000 reported it to the police. Err... aren't reported rapes about 20,000 a year? (Yes, I agree, 20,000 too many).
And this extract relates to a large proportion of the sample : "Fear of being blamed, because of their clothes or alcohol intake or for staying with an abusive partner, means more than half of the women surveyed in February and March 2012 said they would be too embarrassed or ashamed to report the crime.".
I can believe that 10% of those taking part in the survey were raped, but then I think it was probably a self-selected sample. And, while that has value, the results can't be extrapolated.
Surrey :
The headline is "BETWEEN 70-90% RAPES THOUGHT TO GO UNREPORTED …AND 94% OF REPORTED CASES DON’T END IN A CONVICTION".
"Thought to be" isn't evidence of anything. And "reported cases" has a completely different meaning where rape is concerned, compared to all other crimes.
"Attrition" does not include "when victims are reluctant to report rape in the first instance", nor does it include "jurors prefer to acquit than find defendants guilty". Which is a strange way of saying they were found not guilty. It's almost as though the researchers had made up their minds in advance.
Actually, the conviction rate of cases which come to court is quite high - over 60%.
The final sentence gives a clue that hardly anyone else agrees with their conclusions : "The collection of research papers have (sic) been edited by the lead researchers into a book, called Rape: Challenging Contemporary Thinking."
I'm not saying there's no problems of unreported cases, or of cases which don't come to court. Of course there are, huge problems, but hysterical headlines like this don't help anyone.
There is plenty more evidence out there, the links were the first too which were the result of a google search. Go find something that is more convincing but I suspect there is little that would convince you. I gave you evidence which is what you asked for, perhaps you now need to evidence your claim that the figures are much lower surely. Isnt that how it works? I make a claim and back it up, you refute it so also need to provide evidence to support that. I am happy to critique it and give you my view when you link your evidence.
BTW, I've never been asked so never appeared on any statistical data but i could increase the number by one.
There is plenty more evidence out there, the links were the first too which were the result of a google search. Go find something that is more convincing but I suspect there is little that would convince you. I gave you evidence which is what you asked for, perhaps you now need to evidence your claim that the figures are much lower surely. Isnt that how it works? I make a claim and back it up, you refute it so also need to provide evidence to support that. I am happy to critique it and give you my view when you link your evidence.
BTW, I've never been asked so never appeared on any statistical data but i could increase the number by one.
I'm sorry, but all I did was point out why these claims, which is all they are, are extremely suspect. They're not evidence of anything. There's no way anyone can estimate the number of cases which aren't reported, other than by making some pretty broad assumptions.
You were the one who made a statement (not a guess, an opinion, an assumption, but a statement). In which case you must prove it; until it's proved, it's not up to anyone else to disprove it.
Many years ago a computer expert made a joke at an IT conference. He said that 95% of IT fraud went undetected. It was obviously a joke, but to his surprise everyone took him seriously, and that figure spread throughout the world. I imagine some people still accepts it as truth.
I don't doubt that there are many unreported rapes, but by virtue of that, nobody has any idea how many.
I was very sad to read your last sentence, and I'm sure you had your own reasons for not reporting it.
I'm sorry, but all I did was point out why these claims, which is all they are, are extremely suspect. They're not evidence of anything. There's no way anyone can estimate the number of cases which aren't reported, other than by making some pretty broad assumptions.
You were the one who made a statement (not a guess, an opinion, an assumption, but a statement). In which case you must prove it; until it's proved, it's not up to anyone else to disprove it.
Many years ago a computer expert made a joke at an IT conference. He said that 95% of IT fraud went undetected. It was obviously a joke, but to his surprise everyone took him seriously, and that figure spread throughout the world. I imagine some people still accepts it as truth.
I don't doubt that there are many unreported rapes, but by virtue of that, nobody has any idea how many.
I was very sad to read your last sentence, and I'm sure you had your own reasons for not reporting it.
Oh I'd agree that sources of information are likely to be an estimate but there is a source of known information about unreported rapes. Most cities have a rape suite which women are encouraged to access so that evidence can be preserved but there is no expectation that they will proceed with the case. Many women cant face the court process but the idea is to make sure evidence is not lost should they later have a change of mind. Most cities also have more than one voluntary agency who works directly with rape victims offering counselling and in my experience these groups are oversubscribed and have long waiting lists. Both these type of agencies can provide specific data in relation to unreported rapes but the reliability of the data is dependent on their knowing about every unreported rape which is doubtful therefore their figures are likely to be on the low side.
You might wish to dispute the evidence I have provided but as things stand, its the best we have. If there were a wealth if similar evidence which suggested that the figures were artificially inflated then I would be untested to see it, but as you say.....you dont need to provide evidence to demonstrate the opposing view as critiquing my evidence is sufficient?. I find it puzzling that you can dismiss the evidence so easily without having sight of the research data but then again, I figured that was your intention when you asked in the first place.
So they are claiming that despite the victim of the false allegations having an alibi for the supposed rapes, he is still guilty of rape and that the woman should be released. Unbelievable. Idiots like this really do women and victims of rapes no favours.
I wonder if they could be taken to court for libel ?
I was absolutely infuriated reading that! That "woman" falsely accused a man of rape. An INNOCENT man, there is no mention of HIS ordeal, or HIS suffering. Groups like that infuriate me because they claim they want equality but they don't, the ruling in this case was absolutely right, false rape accusations ruin lives and often the people who make the allegations get of scot free. This organisation should be distancing themselves from her she, as she undermines their cause. But they don't, because their agenda is obvious.
I was absolutely infuriated reading that! That "woman" falsely accused a man of rape. An INNOCENT man, there is no mention of HIS ordeal, or HIS suffering. Groups like that infuriate me because they claim they want equality but they don't, the ruling in this case was absolutely right, false rape accusations ruin lives and often the people who make the allegations get of scot free. This organisation should be distancing themselves from her she, as she undermines their cause. But they don't, because their agenda is obvious.
Yup - I think groups like that will only be happy if the legal process was dispensed with an men were locked up for life on accusation alone. >:(
Yup - I think groups like that will only be happy if the legal process was dispensed with an men were locked up for life on accusation alone. >:(
These so called feminists are so far removed from the original idea it's untrue.
It's this type of thing that is the reason feminism is a dirty word to many (including women). I mean who wants to be associated with these sort of groups?
These so called feminists are so far removed from the original idea it's untrue.
It's this type of thing that is the reason feminism is a dirty word to many (including women). I mean who wants to be associated with these sort of groups?
Stand by for " Thats not feminism, ......this is feminism.":D
Stand by for " Thats not feminism, ......this is feminism.":D
Well I was careful to say it was far removed from the original idea.
I think we need a new word really. Equalism? That fights for equality. I know that is what feminism is supposed to do, but the word had been so tainted by the extremes that it's lost it's original meaning to many.
Oh I'd agree that sources of information are likely to be an estimate but there is a source of known information about unreported rapes. Most cities have a rape suite which women are encouraged to access so that evidence can be preserved but there is no expectation that they will proceed with the case. Many women cant face the court process but the idea is to make sure evidence is not lost should they later have a change of mind. ................
That's interesting, and if they released figures it might give an estimate of the proportion of reported to unreported rapes. I'm not denying that a lot of rapes are, for various reasons, unreported. It may be that the Humber unreported is higher than the number reported, but I think claiming that it's many times higher is probably an exaggeration.
....................... I find it puzzling that you can dismiss the evidence so easily without having sight of the research data but then again, I figured that was your intention when you asked in the first place.
Now that's unjust. You made a statement, and I asked for evidence. Based on the summaries, I disagree that these are evidence.Incidentally, have you read the research data?
Since we seem to be going round in circles, I think it's probably time we stopped this topic, and agree to hold opposing views.
That's interesting, and if they released figures it might give an estimate of the proportion of reported to unreported rapes. I'm not denying that a lot of rapes are, for various reasons, unreported. It may be that the Humber unreported is higher than the number reported, but I think claiming that it's many times higher is probably an exaggeration. .
Now that's unjust. You made a statement, and I asked for evidence. Based on the summaries, I disagree that these are evidence.Incidentally, have you read the research data?
Since we seem to be going round in circles, I think it's probably time we stopped this topic, and agree to hold opposing views.
Yeah, probably a wise move given that the views were opposing from the outset and my evidence was always going to be discredited. I see no logic in going any further.
Comments
Lets not also forget the ripple effect and the impact it will have on potential convictions for genuine rape victims. I do understand the concerns expressed by Women Against Rape but also believe that their view is short sighted. Some women may be put off bringing genuine cases forward but a major part of that fear is not being believed and false rape allegations dramatically increases the risk that their fears may be realised. False rape allegations affects not only the victim of the accusation, their family and friends but also affects countless other women who have been raped.
But lets also not forget that false rape claims are a tiny fraction of rape cases reported to the police and those reported are only a small fraction of rapes that occur.
But lets also not forget that false rape claims are a tiny fraction of rape cases reported to the police and those reported are only a small fraction of rapes that occur.[/QUOTE]
I agree with your first statement (one study put it at 3%, but that was based on examining a sample of cases already classified as false by the police, suggesting that the true figure is less).
However, can I ask where your second statement comes from, and do you have any evidence? .
I would agree, very short sighted, such a prosecution was absolutely necessary and right as it was proved she lied and this was a calculated and systematic campaign against the man , WAR need to think about what would have happened if he had not been able to prove his whereabouts at certain times and she had been believed and a Jury had decided he was guilty, how many years would he have gone to prison for ?
This case and sentence would not put off a genuine victim as a genuine victim is not lieing, the only people it should put off are those that are making the accusation up.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/unreported-rapes-the-silent-shame-7561636.html
http://www.surrey.ac.uk/mediacentre/press/2009/16532_between_7090_rapes_thought_to_go_unreported_and_94_of_reported_cases_dont_end_in_a_conviction.htm
http://www.bristolwomensvoice.org.uk/2014/06/20/support-rhiannon-brooker/
So they are claiming that despite the victim of the false allegations having an alibi for the supposed rapes, he is still guilty of rape and that the woman should be released. Unbelievable. Idiots like this really do women and victims of rapes no favours.
I wonder if they could be taken to court for libel ?
That is absolutely disgraceful and they call themselves a charity who offers support to victims, this is not support this is an agenda driven witch hunt of their own.
I am surprised they have allowed such a press release that basically says even when it is proven a person cannot be guilty that when it is rape they basically are guilty in their eyes and even if it is also proven the accuser made it up and in this case went to elaborate lengths to frame the accused that the accuser should remain anonymous and receive no punishment as she is still a rape victim !
Unbelievable and it is this sort of rubbish that makes it harder for genuine victims . If they have charitable status then I would urge the charity commission to urgently review it .
Independent :
How seriously can you take a survey which begins "One in 10 women has been raped"?
Let's take the numbers further : "More than 80 per cent of the 1,600 respondents said they did not report their assault to the police". Which meant 20% did.
There are, say 25 million women in this country. According to the survey, 2,500,000 have been raped. Of these, 500,000 reported it to the police. Err... aren't reported rapes about 20,000 a year? (Yes, I agree, 20,000 too many).
And this extract relates to a large proportion of the sample : "Fear of being blamed, because of their clothes or alcohol intake or for staying with an abusive partner, means more than half of the women surveyed in February and March 2012 said they would be too embarrassed or ashamed to report the crime.".
I can believe that 10% of those taking part in the survey were raped, but then I think it was probably a self-selected sample. And, while that has value, the results can't be extrapolated.
Surrey :
The headline is "BETWEEN 70-90% RAPES THOUGHT TO GO UNREPORTED …AND 94% OF REPORTED CASES DON’T END IN A CONVICTION".
"Thought to be" isn't evidence of anything. And "reported cases" has a completely different meaning where rape is concerned, compared to all other crimes.
"Attrition" does not include "when victims are reluctant to report rape in the first instance", nor does it include "jurors prefer to acquit than find defendants guilty". Which is a strange way of saying they were found not guilty. It's almost as though the researchers had made up their minds in advance.
Actually, the conviction rate of cases which come to court is quite high - over 60%.
The final sentence gives a clue that hardly anyone else agrees with their conclusions : "The collection of research papers have (sic) been edited by the lead researchers into a book, called Rape: Challenging Contemporary Thinking."
I'm not saying there's no problems of unreported cases, or of cases which don't come to court. Of course there are, huge problems, but hysterical headlines like this don't help anyone.
There is plenty more evidence out there, the links were the first too which were the result of a google search. Go find something that is more convincing but I suspect there is little that would convince you. I gave you evidence which is what you asked for, perhaps you now need to evidence your claim that the figures are much lower surely. Isnt that how it works? I make a claim and back it up, you refute it so also need to provide evidence to support that. I am happy to critique it and give you my view when you link your evidence.
BTW, I've never been asked so never appeared on any statistical data but i could increase the number by one.
I'm sorry, but all I did was point out why these claims, which is all they are, are extremely suspect. They're not evidence of anything. There's no way anyone can estimate the number of cases which aren't reported, other than by making some pretty broad assumptions.
You were the one who made a statement (not a guess, an opinion, an assumption, but a statement). In which case you must prove it; until it's proved, it's not up to anyone else to disprove it.
Many years ago a computer expert made a joke at an IT conference. He said that 95% of IT fraud went undetected. It was obviously a joke, but to his surprise everyone took him seriously, and that figure spread throughout the world. I imagine some people still accepts it as truth.
I don't doubt that there are many unreported rapes, but by virtue of that, nobody has any idea how many.
I was very sad to read your last sentence, and I'm sure you had your own reasons for not reporting it.
Oh I'd agree that sources of information are likely to be an estimate but there is a source of known information about unreported rapes. Most cities have a rape suite which women are encouraged to access so that evidence can be preserved but there is no expectation that they will proceed with the case. Many women cant face the court process but the idea is to make sure evidence is not lost should they later have a change of mind. Most cities also have more than one voluntary agency who works directly with rape victims offering counselling and in my experience these groups are oversubscribed and have long waiting lists. Both these type of agencies can provide specific data in relation to unreported rapes but the reliability of the data is dependent on their knowing about every unreported rape which is doubtful therefore their figures are likely to be on the low side.
You might wish to dispute the evidence I have provided but as things stand, its the best we have. If there were a wealth if similar evidence which suggested that the figures were artificially inflated then I would be untested to see it, but as you say.....you dont need to provide evidence to demonstrate the opposing view as critiquing my evidence is sufficient?
I was absolutely infuriated reading that! That "woman" falsely accused a man of rape. An INNOCENT man, there is no mention of HIS ordeal, or HIS suffering. Groups like that infuriate me because they claim they want equality but they don't, the ruling in this case was absolutely right, false rape accusations ruin lives and often the people who make the allegations get of scot free. This organisation should be distancing themselves from her she, as she undermines their cause. But they don't, because their agenda is obvious.
Yup - I think groups like that will only be happy if the legal process was dispensed with an men were locked up for life on accusation alone. >:(
These so called feminists are so far removed from the original idea it's untrue.
It's this type of thing that is the reason feminism is a dirty word to many (including women). I mean who wants to be associated with these sort of groups?
Stand by for " Thats not feminism, ......this is feminism.":D
Well I was careful to say it was far removed from the original idea.
I think we need a new word really. Equalism? That fights for equality. I know that is what feminism is supposed to do, but the word had been so tainted by the extremes that it's lost it's original meaning to many.
That's interesting, and if they released figures it might give an estimate of the proportion of reported to unreported rapes. I'm not denying that a lot of rapes are, for various reasons, unreported. It may be that the Humber unreported is higher than the number reported, but I think claiming that it's many times higher is probably an exaggeration.
The point is that I'm not disputing evidence, I'm saying that in my opinion the links you provided weren't evidence of your statement.
Now that's unjust. You made a statement, and I asked for evidence. Based on the summaries, I disagree that these are evidence.Incidentally, have you read the research data?
Since we seem to be going round in circles, I think it's probably time we stopped this topic, and agree to hold opposing views.
Okay, do you have any evidence to support that?
Okay
Yeah, probably a wise move given that the views were opposing from the outset and my evidence was always going to be discredited. I see no logic in going any further.