Why did DTT start with 2K mode? Could it have been possible to start DTT in 8K mode in 1998?
Sweden started test in April 1999 and scheduled broadcasts in September 1999 - with the 8k mode.
Those making the 2k decision can't have done a proper complexity analysis (ore even known the concept).
Middle aged, middle management men with an (expired) education - that 'estimates', has 'best judgements' or use other phony words for not doing proper and hard work - IMHO.
It is not like 1998 was the stone age of chips. Moores law was and is still making everything possible - if not today, then tomorrow.
As I recall, at the time in 1998 there was a debate as to whether to launch ONdigital immediately using 2K, or whether to delay DTT until chip sets supporting 8K became available. The decision was made to launch immediately, which meant the UK had the first DTT service (as I remember).
Whether it was the right decision or not, both technically and commercially, is up for discussion.
It is not like 1998 was the stone age of chips. Moores law was and is still making everything possible - if not today, then tomorrow.
Of course there was that big Murdoch elephant in the room, they wanted to be on air ahead of Sky, but for the second time they failed but still tried to rush anyway - nothing was learnt from BSB...:rolleyes: That being said a 16 channel On Digital vs Sky analogue was relatively competitive - less so against Sky Digital.
.... and there was no fixed date for 8K chips to be widely available ( and at what price?).
All decisions about the future has no 'fixed date' but must be taken using probabilities and estimating the effect of each outcome.
The price is easily estimated when the complexity and volume is known.
If the DTG og the Ofcom (whatever the name in 1997/98) had asked they would have received very good info from chipmakers.
The fact is the first attempt failed - very spectacularly.
And to have DTG saying as soon as was sensible to mandate 2k/8k working in the D Book. (which happened)
The consumers will in almost all cases save a lot - if they start buying the new and better technology from the day it is widely available.
If 2k only had only been in STB's from November 1998 to September 1999 (when Sweden started digital broadcasts in 8k mode) the UK could have switched to 8k mode with the start of Freeview.
More importantly all transmitters where DTT was started after mid 1999 could have used the 8k mode. (the mode is coded directly at each transmitter/modulator).
How many DTT sites were in operation before July 2009??
How many DTT sites were in operation before July 2009??
Lars
The same number as in 1998 - about 84.... it think you may mean 1999 - and the answer is the same!
You can have firm dates of things in the future .... but there was not enough certainty .. and so many other things going on to get UK DTT launched - the switch to 8K was becoming discounted at launch and was felt to be too destabilising at freeview starting...
The same number as in 1998 - about 84.... it think you may mean 1999 - and the answer is the same!
Very sorry - of course 1999 - when Sweden tested and went live with the 8k mode.
"Transmitter rolloutAt launch, digital terrestrial TV was transmitted through 22 transmitters throughout the UK, bringing the service to up to 70% of customers. By late 1999 or early 2000 this will have risen to 81, raising the coverage to 90% or more." ONdigital history "08-07-1999
ONdigital announces 247,000 Subscribers"
So at least 20% of all households could have used the 8k mode from the start of their muxes and less than 247,000 boxes would ever have had to be replaced due to the 2k mode.
One may argue that the 8k mode would not have made the ONdigital signal sufficiently robust - but robustness did turn out to be rather important.
You can have firm dates of things in the future .... but there was not enough certainty .. and so many other things going on to get UK DTT launched - the switch to 8K was becoming discounted at launch and was felt to be too destabilising at freeview starting...
In the end it did help to destabilise ONdigital and indeed all pre-DSO freeview reception.
Sounds much like the Irish MPEG-4 but 'no DVB-T2' decision.
Why did DTT start with 2K mode? Could it have been possible to start DTT in 8K mode in 1998?
The reason is quite simple: On Digital wanted to launch its pay TV service earlier than Sky Digital as it hoped in this way to take advantage of the fact that (in principle) customers would not need any new antenna installation, contrarily to satellite.
But at that time ICs able to demodulate the 8k mode did not exist and were announced to be available only one year later, thus the "stupid" decision.
The first DVB-T demodulator (supporting 2k only) was made by Motorola and was sold 50$ in high volumes in 1998.
The second one (supporting 2k and 8k) was available one year later from LSI Logic and its cost was "only" 20$.
France made a similar error by launching HDTV on the TNT in DVB-T in 2008 instead of waiting one year more and launching it directly in DVB-T2.
Due to the fact that there are now many millions of HDTVs only able to receive DVB-T, it's very difficult to launch new channels in DVB-T2.
"Transmitter rolloutAt launch, digital terrestrial TV was transmitted through 22 transmitters throughout the UK, bringing the service to up to 70% of customers. By late 1999 or early 2000 this will have risen to 81, raising the coverage to 90% or more." ONdigital history
No, I'm very sure that's not right. It was 80 sites from the word go on Nov 15th 1998.
There were a couple of glitches. Caldbeck was delayed for a couple of weeks due to an aerial fault, and Mux A from Hastings was delayed until Spring 1999, owing to planning permission problems over the downlink dish.
Fremont Point of course never happened until DSO in Nov 2010
lists the original DTT transmitters and lists 24 that had to be on air from the commencement date, another 27 to be on air within eight months, and a further 30 to be on air within sixteen months.
But it was decided to do a one hit rollout - in part because there had always been complaints in the past as the TV had grown out from London and other major centres.
the broadcaster needed as large an coverage as possible form day 1 ..
But it was decided to do a one hit rollout - in part because there had always been complaints in the past as the TV had grown out from London and other major centres.
the broadcaster needed as large an coverage as possible form day 1 ..
In which case it can only have been the main transmitters at the beginning, with relay transmitters following, as DTT was definitely not available from Reigate until August 1999.
France made a similar error by launching HDTV on the TNT in DVB-T in 2008 instead of waiting one year more and launching it directly in DVB-T2.
Due to the fact that there are now many millions of HDTVs only able to receive DVB-T, it's very difficult to launch new channels in DVB-T2.
Denmarks DSO was November 1st 2009 - just 32 days before DSO2-Granada and no more than 4-5 months before DVB-T2 equipment were available in some volume.
In which case it can only have been the main transmitters at the beginning, with relay transmitters following, as DTT was definitely not available from Reigate until August 1999.
I asked him what his memory of the OnDigital launch was, and he says it was such a pathetic non event, with barely any receivers available, he can't remember what the sequence of events was.
He does recall the first DTT signal receivable in S Yorks was Ch 30 from Belmont, that was there quite a few months before Nov 1998, and was only really noticed initially, because it clashed with some VCR RF outputs.
He thinks Sheffield (aka Crosspool) probably did come along later in 1999, but honestly can't remember.
lists the original DTT transmitters and lists 24 that had to be on air from the commencement date, another 27 to be on air within eight months, and a further 30 to be on air within sixteen months.
This document was created October 22 1998. It seems to me the 24 tx sites listed - less Fremont Point and Hastings - is the 22 TX sites in the ONdigital history document.
At least one 8k chip most surely was available before the launch in Sweden - i.e. about mid 1999.
The 90% coverage from the 80/81 pre-DSO sites can't be anything but another example of dishonest marketing.
IFAIK - the pre-DSO coverage newer went much above 70% even after 16-QAM and later ERP increases (e.g. CP 3 dB 10kW -> 20kW).
I asked him what his memory of the OnDigital launch was, and he says it was such a pathetic non event, with barely any receivers available, he can't remember what the sequence of events was.
He does recall the first DTT signal receivable in S Yorks was Ch 30 from Belmont, that was there quite a few months before Nov 1998, and was only really noticed initially, because it clashed with some VCR RF outputs.
He thinks Sheffield (aka Crosspool) probably did come along later in 1999, but honestly can't remember.
I remember the very first DTT transmissions from Hannington around October 1998. My young daughter came to tell me "the telly has gone funny". She was watching Sky analogue satellite via RF (TV didn't have SCART) and the signal had become very weak and noisy. Took a couple of minutes for the penny to drop, I then unplugged the aerial and all was fine again! Re-tuned the modulator to a clear channel and all fixed. Couldn't get an ONd box for love or money at the time, but still saw the switch on!
I remember the very first DTT transmissions from Hannington around October 1998. My young daughter came to tell me "the telly has gone funny". She was watching Sky analogue satellite via RF (TV didn't have SCART) and the signal had become very weak and noisy. Took a couple of minutes for the penny to drop, I then unplugged the aerial and all was fine again! Re-tuned the modulator to a clear channel and all fixed. Couldn't get an ONd box for love or money at the time, but still saw the switch on!
I remember attending some sort of exhibition in October 1998, at the Merry Hill Centre in Brierly Hill (West Midlands). I think it was set in a hotel. Nokia were demonstrating a prototype of their Mediamaster 9850T (not released to the public until July 1999), receiving from Sutton Coldfield. I can remember seeing BBC News 24 and UK Gold, or it may have been Granada Plus (before OnDigital started), no viewing card was needed.
I remember the very first DTT transmissions from Hannington around October 1998. My young daughter came to tell me "the telly has gone funny". She was watching Sky analogue satellite via RF (TV didn't have SCART) and the signal had become very weak and noisy. Took a couple of minutes for the penny to drop, I then unplugged the aerial and all was fine again! Re-tuned the modulator to a clear channel and all fixed. Couldn't get an ONd box for love or money at the time, but still saw the switch on!
We had to retune our Sky box three times in the space of three years at the end of the 1990s - firstly Channel 5 started up from Winter Hill spoiling it (how on earth it was on E47 when the specs said 32 - 42 (IIRC) I'll never know!), then On Digital started up from Winter Hill spoiling it again, then the Walton-le-Dale* transmitter was turned on (analogue only at the time) yet again spoiling it. We then got Sky Digital which used E68 - but a couple of years later after my parents had got Sky Digital I got an ex-ITV Digital box and had to retune as the Sky box was spoiling two multiplexes! Trying to find space between the eight digital multiplexes from Winter Hill, five analogue services from Winter Hill, four analogue services from Walton-le-Dale and four analogue services from Moel-y-Parc for a Sky Box, ITV Digital box and three VCRs wasn't easy!
* This may have come before ON Digital - they were in quick succession!
I remember the very first DTT transmissions from Hannington around October 1998. My young daughter came to tell me "the telly has gone funny". She was watching Sky analogue satellite via RF (TV didn't have SCART) and the signal had become very weak and noisy. Took a couple of minutes for the penny to drop, I then unplugged the aerial and all was fine again! Re-tuned the modulator to a clear channel and all fixed. Couldn't get an ONd box for love or money at the time, but still saw the switch on!
I can remember Rowridge's BBC and ITV/4 muxes starting up early September. I'd been regularly trying E67 and E52 by tuning my VCR's output to them, and seeing how noisy the VCR's output was made ! I was expecting a snow storm, but it was hard to tell when they did come on line, just a small amount of noise, and rather inconclusive. I had to check with the BBC Engineering Info dept that they really were there ! And before anyone asks, yes I was using a Group C/D aerial to receive them. Got my OnD box in March 1999, it was hopeless reception. Ironically I moved house into Hannington's service area about a week before the Rowridge BBC mux moved to Ch 23, and became receivable. Hannington was my first taste of solid DTT reception.
The specs never said that at all. Ch 5 was shoehorned in where ever it would go and in most places that was E35 or E37, but in Winter Hill it was E47.
I mean the specs of the old Amstrad box!
On Winter Hill Channel 5 was E48 which meant it used to get patterning from HTV Wales (on E49), which was bad enough, but the weak signal meant it was full of noise too.
Comments
Certainly was, hence why they died at DSO
I believe that 8k code requires a little bit more processing power and memory hence the earlier equipment couldn't cope.
Sweden started test in April 1999 and scheduled broadcasts in September 1999 - with the 8k mode.
Those making the 2k decision can't have done a proper complexity analysis (ore even known the concept).
Middle aged, middle management men with an (expired) education - that 'estimates', has 'best judgements' or use other phony words for not doing proper and hard work - IMHO.
It is not like 1998 was the stone age of chips. Moores law was and is still making everything possible - if not today, then tomorrow.
Lars
Whether it was the right decision or not, both technically and commercially, is up for discussion.
Of course there was that big Murdoch elephant in the room, they wanted to be on air ahead of Sky, but for the second time they failed but still tried to rush anyway - nothing was learnt from BSB...:rolleyes: That being said a 16 channel On Digital vs Sky analogue was relatively competitive - less so against Sky Digital.
So it was probably right - but not ideal- to launchwith 2K and swap out at DSO (which was some unknown date in the future)
And to have DTG saying as soon as was sensible to mandate 2k/8k working in the D Book. (which happened)
The price is easily estimated when the complexity and volume is known.
If the DTG og the Ofcom (whatever the name in 1997/98) had asked they would have received very good info from chipmakers.
The consumers will in almost all cases save a lot - if they start buying the new and better technology from the day it is widely available.
If 2k only had only been in STB's from November 1998 to September 1999 (when Sweden started digital broadcasts in 8k mode) the UK could have switched to 8k mode with the start of Freeview.
More importantly all transmitters where DTT was started after mid 1999 could have used the 8k mode. (the mode is coded directly at each transmitter/modulator).
How many DTT sites were in operation before July 2009??
Lars
The same number as in 1998 - about 84.... it think you may mean 1999 - and the answer is the same!
You can have firm dates of things in the future .... but there was not enough certainty .. and so many other things going on to get UK DTT launched - the switch to 8K was becoming discounted at launch and was felt to be too destabilising at freeview starting...
"Transmitter rolloutAt launch, digital terrestrial TV was transmitted through 22 transmitters throughout the UK, bringing the service to up to 70% of customers. By late 1999 or early 2000 this will have risen to 81, raising the coverage to 90% or more." ONdigital history
"08-07-1999
ONdigital announces 247,000 Subscribers"
So at least 20% of all households could have used the 8k mode from the start of their muxes and less than 247,000 boxes would ever have had to be replaced due to the 2k mode.
One may argue that the 8k mode would not have made the ONdigital signal sufficiently robust - but robustness did turn out to be rather important.
In the end it did help to destabilise ONdigital and indeed all pre-DSO freeview reception.
Sounds much like the Irish MPEG-4 but 'no DVB-T2' decision.
Lars
But at that time ICs able to demodulate the 8k mode did not exist and were announced to be available only one year later, thus the "stupid" decision.
The first DVB-T demodulator (supporting 2k only) was made by Motorola and was sold 50$ in high volumes in 1998.
The second one (supporting 2k and 8k) was available one year later from LSI Logic and its cost was "only" 20$.
France made a similar error by launching HDTV on the TNT in DVB-T in 2008 instead of waiting one year more and launching it directly in DVB-T2.
Due to the fact that there are now many millions of HDTVs only able to receive DVB-T, it's very difficult to launch new channels in DVB-T2.
No, I'm very sure that's not right. It was 80 sites from the word go on Nov 15th 1998.
There were a couple of glitches. Caldbeck was delayed for a couple of weeks due to an aerial fault, and Mux A from Hastings was delayed until Spring 1999, owing to planning permission problems over the downlink dish.
Fremont Point of course never happened until DSO in Nov 2010
http://docs-europe.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/00b4/0900766b800b4659.pdf
lists the original DTT transmitters and lists 24 that had to be on air from the commencement date, another 27 to be on air within eight months, and a further 30 to be on air within sixteen months.
the broadcaster needed as large an coverage as possible form day 1 ..
The DVB-T2/MPEG-4/HD PSB-3 plan has been rather well executed by Ofcom - I think.
Lars
I spoke to Bill Wright earlier today (of www.wrightsaerials.tv fame)
I asked him what his memory of the OnDigital launch was, and he says it was such a pathetic non event, with barely any receivers available, he can't remember what the sequence of events was.
He does recall the first DTT signal receivable in S Yorks was Ch 30 from Belmont, that was there quite a few months before Nov 1998, and was only really noticed initially, because it clashed with some VCR RF outputs.
He thinks Sheffield (aka Crosspool) probably did come along later in 1999, but honestly can't remember.
This document was created October 22 1998. It seems to me the 24 tx sites listed - less Fremont Point and Hastings - is the 22 TX sites in the ONdigital history document.
At least one 8k chip most surely was available before the launch in Sweden - i.e. about mid 1999.
The 90% coverage from the 80/81 pre-DSO sites can't be anything but another example of dishonest marketing.
IFAIK - the pre-DSO coverage newer went much above 70% even after 16-QAM and later ERP increases (e.g. CP 3 dB 10kW -> 20kW).
Lars
I remember the very first DTT transmissions from Hannington around October 1998. My young daughter came to tell me "the telly has gone funny". She was watching Sky analogue satellite via RF (TV didn't have SCART) and the signal had become very weak and noisy. Took a couple of minutes for the penny to drop, I then unplugged the aerial and all was fine again! Re-tuned the modulator to a clear channel and all fixed. Couldn't get an ONd box for love or money at the time, but still saw the switch on!
I remember attending some sort of exhibition in October 1998, at the Merry Hill Centre in Brierly Hill (West Midlands). I think it was set in a hotel. Nokia were demonstrating a prototype of their Mediamaster 9850T (not released to the public until July 1999), receiving from Sutton Coldfield. I can remember seeing BBC News 24 and UK Gold, or it may have been Granada Plus (before OnDigital started), no viewing card was needed.
Chris.
We had to retune our Sky box three times in the space of three years at the end of the 1990s - firstly Channel 5 started up from Winter Hill spoiling it (how on earth it was on E47 when the specs said 32 - 42 (IIRC) I'll never know!), then On Digital started up from Winter Hill spoiling it again, then the Walton-le-Dale* transmitter was turned on (analogue only at the time) yet again spoiling it. We then got Sky Digital which used E68 - but a couple of years later after my parents had got Sky Digital I got an ex-ITV Digital box and had to retune as the Sky box was spoiling two multiplexes! Trying to find space between the eight digital multiplexes from Winter Hill, five analogue services from Winter Hill, four analogue services from Walton-le-Dale and four analogue services from Moel-y-Parc for a Sky Box, ITV Digital box and three VCRs wasn't easy!
* This may have come before ON Digital - they were in quick succession!
I can remember Rowridge's BBC and ITV/4 muxes starting up early September. I'd been regularly trying E67 and E52 by tuning my VCR's output to them, and seeing how noisy the VCR's output was made ! I was expecting a snow storm, but it was hard to tell when they did come on line, just a small amount of noise, and rather inconclusive. I had to check with the BBC Engineering Info dept that they really were there ! And before anyone asks, yes I was using a Group C/D aerial to receive them. Got my OnD box in March 1999, it was hopeless reception. Ironically I moved house into Hannington's service area about a week before the Rowridge BBC mux moved to Ch 23, and became receivable. Hannington was my first taste of solid DTT reception.
On Winter Hill Channel 5 was E48 which meant it used to get patterning from HTV Wales (on E49), which was bad enough, but the weak signal meant it was full of noise too.