And this is another contradiction. Why didn't the stars reappear when Amy remembered them?
Why would they? There was no means why which they would. Again, Amy wasn't magic.
No, the Nestenes created Rory based upon Amy's memory fragments. It is made very clear that Rory was an auton replica, and not the real Rory resurrected through Amy's memories *alone*.
Of course it was never by Amy's memories alone. Why would it be?
The Autons created a plastic humanoid based on a picture of a Roman. They didn't expect to get a Rory.
Oh, I agree that the Doctor most certainly took action to stir memories within Amy. But that this strategy worked was most certainly magic.
It is in no way any more magical than any of the above.
'If you remember me, I'll appear' is not a sci-fi mechanism.
Yeah- if only the writers just had their "Time Travel for A-Level students" text books by their sides when they were writing. Maybe then it would stand up to proper scientific scrutiny?
As I said before, my queries had nothing to do with a failure to understand science on the part of the makers. Certainly not time travel as nobody can be really sure how it would work. I studied history, I'm certainly no expert, My queries, are about the failure to maintain a coherent narrative. Blink certainly played with the concept of time travel and was near excellent.
The fact that people can kick holes in the story is worth noting, this arc consists of lots of good ideas linked together, rather than one complete story told in installments.
I prefer Moffat's take on Who to RTD's, but nobody here has come up with a solution to anything I've said except to not look at it too closely (good advice, I've never said I didn't enjoy it) or it's timey wimey. Sigh.
Why would they? There was no means why which they would. Again, Amy wasn't magic.
Of course it was never by Amy's memories alone. Why would it be?
The Autons created a plastic humanoid based on a picture of a Roman. They didn't expect to get a Rory.
It is in no way any more magical than any of the above.
Nor was it what happened. See above.
Well, I agree with your responses there.
But, if you accept that Amy was not capable of bringing anything back through the power of her memory alone, how can she possibly bring back the Doctor?
If you're saying that it was a combination of her remembering and a new ability of the TARDIS to lock on to memories, what was wrong with River Song's memory? There was no need to wait for Amy.
If you're saying that it was a combination of her remembering and a new ability of the TARDIS to lock on to memories, what was wrong with River Song's memory? There was no need to wait for Amy.
RIver might not be around considering she was conceived in the Tardis during the honeymoon after the wedding where the Doctor was drawn back into the newly re-created universe. Or something like that. Besides which Amy was the first person the current incarnation of the Doctor met.
RIver might not be around considering she was conceived in the Tardis during the honeymoon after the wedding where the Doctor was drawn back into the newly re-created universe. Or something like that.
She was around - she gave Amy her diary during the ceremony to help jog her memory
Besides which Amy was the first person the current incarnation of the Doctor met.
I'm not sure why that would matter.
I'm kinda frustrated that I can't rewatch the episode to check what was actually said in the dialogue. I did dust off my S5 boxset earlier, but, annoyingly, the DVD snapped in two as I was removing it from the case. D'oh!
I'm kinda frustrated that I can't rewatch the episode to check what was actually said in the dialogue. I did dust off my S5 boxset earlier, but, annoyingly, the DVD snapped in two as I was removing it from the case. D'oh!
Might be a warning not to meddle in the affairs of the Moff, for your DVDs are frail and snappy.
She was the last person he saw whilst still in the universe and also he seeded her memory as a child with a story of their adventures. Rivers existence is a paradox but in the re-created world she'd never actually met the Doctor, or couldn't have until he'd been drawn back in.
The objection is that there is not a "plausible" (within the implausible world of DW) reason for the Doctor to return in The Big Bang. Amy suddenly appears to have magical powers. Because of time cracks.
Actually when Rory dies at the end of the Silurian episodes the Doctor tells Amy to focus on Rory although wise she would forget him and he even makes reference to the fact that she had been living with the crack in her wall for years. Doesn't anyone pay attention? Seriously I don't even re-watch that often! :eek:
As to the problem with little Amelia not being able to bring back the stars there is a simple answer to that, the whole of space-time was damaged it would take more than remembering to bring them back it required a reset which of course we got.
Again with Rory the Autons did create him based on her experiences etc which of course triggered her memory of him and that meant she could remember the real human Rory back into existence during the big bang 2.
Actually when Rory dies at the end of the Silurian episodes the Doctor tells Amy to focus on Rory although wise she would forget him and he even makes reference to the fact that she had been living with the crack in her wall for years. Doesn't anyone pay attention? Seriously I don't even re-watch that often! :eek:
.
No, I'm sure you are the only person who pays any attention. I bow to your superior knowledge. Pity you missed the fact that Amy did forget Rory.
I don't rewatch at all, btw. I've seen most of series 5 only once.
No, I'm sure you are the only person who pays any attention. I bow to your superior knowledge. Pity you missed the fact that Amy did forget Rory.
I don't rewatch at all, btw. I've seen most of series 5 only once.
I thought that that was implicit and didn't need mentioning but it doesn't negate my point though
I don't re-watch that much but it does help particularly with Moffat and its always good for refreshing your brain occasionally. My god I sound so sad! :cool:
I'm sure you can. I can see a lot of people in my imagination, who are no longer here.
I wish that would bring them back to reality - but it won't, sadly.
Perhaps that's why it all felt false to me - life isn't like that, and it felt like a cheat.
I wish things could be like that sometimes too
I can have a go at the Pandorica though:
That was what the pandorica did I believe. Bear with me because I might just be making some of this up as I go along
It was a device to store everything and everyone you wanted brought back. Store the information in there, the cracks 'eat' the rest, the pandorica opens after it had all gone and 'rebooted' everything. That's at least how the Doctor managed to use it. The only problem was he had to be stuck inside 'piloting' it.
From this last series we saw the Doctor be told that he could be reconstructed by the holes he left. Even though he had wiped himself from the memories and records of large chunks of the universe. you could still tell 'something' did what he did. The Cyber planner said he could work it out.
So I think that if he left a hole- i.e everything he was involved in was no longer done (which is also why little Amy saw no stars- just like the end of the name of the doctor, when all the star systems he was involved in saving were now gone) then everyone he had been involved with came back into existence knowing 'something' happened.
As the universe was still rebooting and putting things back where they should be, and if you believe the pandorica had that 'power' in the first place to do that, then if something should be there it had the power to put it back there. Reconstruct it from working out what was missing. All he needed was a sort of trigger to make it happen. In this case it was Amy- being the 'crack' child ( haha- I made her sound like she's on crack ), involved in time travel and very close to some of the 'holes' left by the Doctor.
So Amy didn't exactly 'remember him back into existence', the pandorica was just reconstructing everything that 'should' be there. And it doesn't really matter 'when' he came back, because as soon as he was back then he was always there, doing the things he had always done, stopping all those stars from being destroyed over the years etc.
So- originally the Pandorica was supposed to make whatever was sitting inside 'disappear' from the universe. The Doctor being inside basically, in a round about way (cut a long story short), caused the Tardis to explode ( which caused the cracks in the first place). So the baddies putting the Doctor in there was going to destroy the whole universe in a massive paradox. (Without the Doctor the Tardis shouldn't be there, and how many times have that duo saved the universe?) It happened so it must have happened , just like seeing the grave in Angels take Manhattan. The Tardis WILL explode. So, now it is just a matter of trying to make it work to the best conclusion. Combining this Tardis explosion with the Pandorica was the solution.
It annoys me how people think the Moff's era is too complicated... well, at least series 5 and 6. I personally think it's been brilliant (apart from this year). With RTD, we had 4 years to properly re-introduce the Who-Universe to everyone. He brought back the Big Baddies every year; Daleks, Cybermen, the Master, Davros and the Time Lords. So, where do you go from there?
Moffat's answer is, you take the mythology and do something new with it. It is why we have a good Sontaron. Why the Doctor was able to call on Silurians for help in AGMGTW. Why we've had an entirely new group of villains introduced; the SIlence.
I like how Moff's era has been one big story. It's all been leading to Trenzalore since the 11th Hour, and that has now led to the introduction of John Hurt's Doctor. I think people are just impatient and want their questions answering straight away. He did address quite a lot last week, even though we still don't know who blew up the TARDIS.
It could be worse, guys. Just look at Lost. Writers who got so caught up with making up their mythology as they went along that, in the end, their final season was only ever going to be a cop out. And it was.
Just seen this thread now... Doctor Who is meant to make sense??? I never knew that... I always had it down for complete escapism wonderful nonsense..
I had no idea there was meant to be logic in there...
The very premise of the show doesn't make sense even.
A time travelling in a box which is bigger on he inside. That's not really supposed to make sense, it;s a kind of techno-magic, and even up to this day most of it is the same type of thing. What matters , as you say, is that it is indeed wonderful escapism, and the story matters most. Some people want more of the story than others to make some kind of sense I guess, but we are starting from a point which in itself is nonsense.
All we can do is have our little theories about how such a thing could work. I think it is interesting to talk about the ideas behind time travel and dimensions which make boxes bigger on the inside etc. That is part of the great story telling going on, and I think it proves how the writing is so good, and I'm talking about over 50 years here, not just the last couple. I believe we are here talking about our theories on how certain stories worked/didn't work because of the good writing and good stories.
Just seen this thread now... Doctor Who is meant to make sense??? I never knew that... I always had it down for complete escapism wonderful nonsense..
I had no idea there was meant to be logic in there...
There's a difference between fantasy and making sense. However fantastical or impossible the concepts you use they should still be logically consistent within the show's own mythology.
The idea that you can trample over consistency and logic just because it's sci-fi or fantasy is a flawed premise. It detracts from suspension of disbelief and takes you out of the story.
Having said that, with enough imagination and perseverance it's usually possible to make sense of Doctor Who. It's just that some episodes may be harder to do so than others
Might be a warning not to meddle in the affairs of the Moff, for your DVDs are frail and snappy.
It was the first time I'd actually taken that DVD out. You might be right about online criticism of Moffat carrying ironic consequence in the real world...
I don't think he's a bad writer. I think he's good, but not great. For me, his post-RTD era stories just do not have the depth to them to put him in the big league.
To his credit, tho', I thought 'Asylum' and 'Name' were the best episodes of the last series, a huge improvement over his S6 offerings and the 2 Xmas specials prior to 'The Snowmen'.
It was the first time I'd actually taken that DVD out. You might be right about online criticism of Moffat carrying ironic consequence in the real world...
I don't think he's a bad writer. I think he's good, but not great. For me, his post-RTD era stories just do not have the depth to them to put him in the big league.
To his credit, tho', I thought 'Asylum' and 'Name' were the best episodes of the last series, a huge improvement over his S6 offerings and the 2 Xmas specials prior to 'The Snowmen'.
* checks broken DVD *
Nope, it hasn't magically fixed itself...
Regards,
Cypher
yuo have to wish REALLY REALLY hard, and just believe it will happen. There's no use asking how though- because that would be spoilers:D
It annoys me how people think the Moff's era is too complicated... well, at least series 5 and 6. I personally think it's been brilliant (apart from this year). With RTD, we had 4 years to properly re-introduce the Who-Universe to everyone. He brought back the Big Baddies every year; Daleks, Cybermen, the Master, Davros and the Time Lords. So, where do you go from there?
Ummmm.... Just to point out that the Time Lords aren't supposed to be a big bad, sure you get evil Time Lords but on the whole they are fairly peaceful but bureaucratic and stuffy. The whole point is that on the whole Time Lords were never intended to be a big bad even though they did tend to complicate things for the Doctor but that's a separate issue altogether :cool:
It all really just amounts to people having different things that will bring them out of the story they are watching. Whether it makes sense or not, if it doesn't bring you out then you probably don't care if it made sense or not, as long as it 'worked' at the time you were watching it. IT might depend on the mood you were in at the time you first saw it also.
One thing that brought me out fairly recently was in the Power of Three episode where the doctor waved the sonic around at some alien tech on this spaceship that he's never seen before- only just heard about in bogey man stories told to Gallifrey children. Then suddenly, a billion people across the earth were revived, after having their hearts stopped for who knows how long. As you can probably tell- I think that was probably my lowest rated episode of Matt Smith's era.
Many people weren't that bothered by that and thought PO3 was great. I think most of it was good, up until that point, and mostly, even when the sonic is over used, I don't mind it too much. That incident just made me want to throw something at the writer though, and shout 'come on. how much did you get paid for that?' I wasn't thinking about the story/plot anymore and what was going on.
So I am saying that I can definitely see where some people are coming from when they don't get things. You don't always have to understand every single detail to 'get it' and find the story brilliant, and at the same time you might understand and still think it was rubbish, or just not get the point of what they were trying to do.
Sorry- not replying to anyone really- I've just been thinking about this during the day and while cutting the grass outside, about what brings people out of the story and makes the story/world being created less believable. I think there are just different triggers for different people.
Comments
Of course it was never by Amy's memories alone. Why would it be?
The Autons created a plastic humanoid based on a picture of a Roman. They didn't expect to get a Rory.
It is in no way any more magical than any of the above.
Nor was it what happened. See above.
As I said before, my queries had nothing to do with a failure to understand science on the part of the makers. Certainly not time travel as nobody can be really sure how it would work. I studied history, I'm certainly no expert, My queries, are about the failure to maintain a coherent narrative. Blink certainly played with the concept of time travel and was near excellent.
The fact that people can kick holes in the story is worth noting, this arc consists of lots of good ideas linked together, rather than one complete story told in installments.
I prefer Moffat's take on Who to RTD's, but nobody here has come up with a solution to anything I've said except to not look at it too closely (good advice, I've never said I didn't enjoy it) or it's timey wimey. Sigh.
Well, I agree with your responses there.
But, if you accept that Amy was not capable of bringing anything back through the power of her memory alone, how can she possibly bring back the Doctor?
If you're saying that it was a combination of her remembering and a new ability of the TARDIS to lock on to memories, what was wrong with River Song's memory? There was no need to wait for Amy.
Regards,
Cypher
RIver might not be around considering she was conceived in the Tardis during the honeymoon after the wedding where the Doctor was drawn back into the newly re-created universe. Or something like that. Besides which Amy was the first person the current incarnation of the Doctor met.
She was around - she gave Amy her diary during the ceremony to help jog her memory
I'm not sure why that would matter.
I'm kinda frustrated that I can't rewatch the episode to check what was actually said in the dialogue. I did dust off my S5 boxset earlier, but, annoyingly, the DVD snapped in two as I was removing it from the case. D'oh!
I've had to order another one now...
Regards,
Cypher
Might be a warning not to meddle in the affairs of the Moff, for your DVDs are frail and snappy.
Or if this is right, He rewinds to the Byzantium; he approaches Amy — her eyes shut to avoid being killed by the Weeping Angel — and encourages her to remember what he told her when she was seven. He rewinds to 1996 and finds Amelia asleep in her back garden, awaiting his return. He carries her to bed and tells her the story of how he stole — or, rather, "borrowed" — the TARDIS, describing it romantically as "ancient and new, and the bluest blue ever." He sees the crack in her wall and tells her it can't close properly until he's on the other side and steps through, prefering not to see the rest of his life rewind. The crack in her wall closes. She wakes to an empty room and quickly goes back to sleep.
She was the last person he saw whilst still in the universe and also he seeded her memory as a child with a story of their adventures. Rivers existence is a paradox but in the re-created world she'd never actually met the Doctor, or couldn't have until he'd been drawn back in.
Actually when Rory dies at the end of the Silurian episodes the Doctor tells Amy to focus on Rory although wise she would forget him and he even makes reference to the fact that she had been living with the crack in her wall for years. Doesn't anyone pay attention? Seriously I don't even re-watch that often! :eek:
As to the problem with little Amelia not being able to bring back the stars there is a simple answer to that, the whole of space-time was damaged it would take more than remembering to bring them back it required a reset which of course we got.
Again with Rory the Autons did create him based on her experiences etc which of course triggered her memory of him and that meant she could remember the real human Rory back into existence during the big bang 2.
No, I'm sure you are the only person who pays any attention. I bow to your superior knowledge. Pity you missed the fact that Amy did forget Rory.
I don't rewatch at all, btw. I've seen most of series 5 only once.
I thought that that was implicit and didn't need mentioning but it doesn't negate my point though
I don't re-watch that much but it does help particularly with Moffat and its always good for refreshing your brain occasionally. My god I sound so sad! :cool:
I wish things could be like that sometimes too
I can have a go at the Pandorica though:
That was what the pandorica did I believe. Bear with me because I might just be making some of this up as I go along
It was a device to store everything and everyone you wanted brought back. Store the information in there, the cracks 'eat' the rest, the pandorica opens after it had all gone and 'rebooted' everything. That's at least how the Doctor managed to use it. The only problem was he had to be stuck inside 'piloting' it.
From this last series we saw the Doctor be told that he could be reconstructed by the holes he left. Even though he had wiped himself from the memories and records of large chunks of the universe. you could still tell 'something' did what he did. The Cyber planner said he could work it out.
So I think that if he left a hole- i.e everything he was involved in was no longer done (which is also why little Amy saw no stars- just like the end of the name of the doctor, when all the star systems he was involved in saving were now gone) then everyone he had been involved with came back into existence knowing 'something' happened.
As the universe was still rebooting and putting things back where they should be, and if you believe the pandorica had that 'power' in the first place to do that, then if something should be there it had the power to put it back there. Reconstruct it from working out what was missing. All he needed was a sort of trigger to make it happen. In this case it was Amy- being the 'crack' child ( haha- I made her sound like she's on crack
So Amy didn't exactly 'remember him back into existence', the pandorica was just reconstructing everything that 'should' be there. And it doesn't really matter 'when' he came back, because as soon as he was back then he was always there, doing the things he had always done, stopping all those stars from being destroyed over the years etc.
So- originally the Pandorica was supposed to make whatever was sitting inside 'disappear' from the universe. The Doctor being inside basically, in a round about way (cut a long story short), caused the Tardis to explode ( which caused the cracks in the first place). So the baddies putting the Doctor in there was going to destroy the whole universe in a massive paradox. (Without the Doctor the Tardis shouldn't be there, and how many times have that duo saved the universe?) It happened so it must have happened , just like seeing the grave in Angels take Manhattan. The Tardis WILL explode. So, now it is just a matter of trying to make it work to the best conclusion. Combining this Tardis explosion with the Pandorica was the solution.
Moffat's answer is, you take the mythology and do something new with it. It is why we have a good Sontaron. Why the Doctor was able to call on Silurians for help in AGMGTW. Why we've had an entirely new group of villains introduced; the SIlence.
I like how Moff's era has been one big story. It's all been leading to Trenzalore since the 11th Hour, and that has now led to the introduction of John Hurt's Doctor. I think people are just impatient and want their questions answering straight away. He did address quite a lot last week, even though we still don't know who blew up the TARDIS.
It could be worse, guys. Just look at Lost. Writers who got so caught up with making up their mythology as they went along that, in the end, their final season was only ever going to be a cop out. And it was.
I had no idea there was meant to be logic in there...
The very premise of the show doesn't make sense even.
A time travelling in a box which is bigger on he inside. That's not really supposed to make sense, it;s a kind of techno-magic, and even up to this day most of it is the same type of thing. What matters , as you say, is that it is indeed wonderful escapism, and the story matters most. Some people want more of the story than others to make some kind of sense I guess, but we are starting from a point which in itself is nonsense.
All we can do is have our little theories about how such a thing could work. I think it is interesting to talk about the ideas behind time travel and dimensions which make boxes bigger on the inside etc. That is part of the great story telling going on, and I think it proves how the writing is so good, and I'm talking about over 50 years here, not just the last couple. I believe we are here talking about our theories on how certain stories worked/didn't work because of the good writing and good stories.
There's a difference between fantasy and making sense. However fantastical or impossible the concepts you use they should still be logically consistent within the show's own mythology.
The idea that you can trample over consistency and logic just because it's sci-fi or fantasy is a flawed premise. It detracts from suspension of disbelief and takes you out of the story.
Having said that, with enough imagination and perseverance it's usually possible to make sense of Doctor Who. It's just that some episodes may be harder to do so than others
It was the first time I'd actually taken that DVD out. You might be right about online criticism of Moffat carrying ironic consequence in the real world...
I don't think he's a bad writer. I think he's good, but not great. For me, his post-RTD era stories just do not have the depth to them to put him in the big league.
To his credit, tho', I thought 'Asylum' and 'Name' were the best episodes of the last series, a huge improvement over his S6 offerings and the 2 Xmas specials prior to 'The Snowmen'.
* checks broken DVD *
Nope, it hasn't magically fixed itself...
Regards,
Cypher
yuo have to wish REALLY REALLY hard, and just believe it will happen. There's no use asking how though- because that would be spoilers:D
Ummmm.... Just to point out that the Time Lords aren't supposed to be a big bad, sure you get evil Time Lords but on the whole they are fairly peaceful but bureaucratic and stuffy. The whole point is that on the whole Time Lords were never intended to be a big bad even though they did tend to complicate things for the Doctor but that's a separate issue altogether :cool:
One thing that brought me out fairly recently was in the Power of Three episode where the doctor waved the sonic around at some alien tech on this spaceship that he's never seen before- only just heard about in bogey man stories told to Gallifrey children. Then suddenly, a billion people across the earth were revived, after having their hearts stopped for who knows how long. As you can probably tell- I think that was probably my lowest rated episode of Matt Smith's era.
Many people weren't that bothered by that and thought PO3 was great. I think most of it was good, up until that point, and mostly, even when the sonic is over used, I don't mind it too much. That incident just made me want to throw something at the writer though, and shout 'come on. how much did you get paid for that?' I wasn't thinking about the story/plot anymore and what was going on.
So I am saying that I can definitely see where some people are coming from when they don't get things. You don't always have to understand every single detail to 'get it' and find the story brilliant, and at the same time you might understand and still think it was rubbish, or just not get the point of what they were trying to do.
Sorry- not replying to anyone really- I've just been thinking about this during the day and while cutting the grass outside, about what brings people out of the story and makes the story/world being created less believable. I think there are just different triggers for different people.