The Jewish People and The Romany Gypsies (both discriminated against, yet....)
PlausibleDenial
Posts: 978 Forum Member
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There was a great article in the Guardian today by Judy Benton about how as a jew she escaped Hitler's Germany and made a success out of her life.
(http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/01/i-escaped-hitler-germany-kindertransport-blessed)
It got me thinking.... The Jewish people and the Romany Gypsies were both groups of people without a homeland, both discriminated against and both persecuted throughout history.
What is it that made the Jewish people so successful in so many different areas of life, yet the Romany have had it so different.
Anyone given this any thought?
(http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/01/i-escaped-hitler-germany-kindertransport-blessed)
It got me thinking.... The Jewish people and the Romany Gypsies were both groups of people without a homeland, both discriminated against and both persecuted throughout history.
What is it that made the Jewish people so successful in so many different areas of life, yet the Romany have had it so different.
Anyone given this any thought?
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2. The Jews have always had a metropolitan existence, the Romani primarily lived in the countryside or towns on a hand to mouth existence, something the Nazis exploited to great effect during the Holocaust when they needed a pretext to occupy rural areas with legitimacy in the same way they enforced terror in the cities. Apart from crime, most Romani worked in metallurgy or were musicians and dancers. They have distinct purity laws and customs (descended from Hindu morals) from the people of Europe and from Jews which meant they were and are unlikely to go into certain areas.
3. The Jews had great access to positions of wealth because of their metropolitan nature, they were seen as impartial by rulers and moneymakers, could participate in usury (not being bound by Christian or Islamic morality), and so on. Romani have historically had a more ambiguous relationship with Christianity, Islam and the law.
Romany gypsies are thieves and beggars and criminally inclined in all sorts of ways.
See the difference.
Comparing the two is quite ridiculous really.
"Europe" HAD very few "cities" north of the Alps at the time of the brith of Christ. And you'll find that those large Jewish populations really only arrived after the two sackings of Jerusalem and the Diaspora...
Actually - no; take a look at the demographics of Russian or Polish jews, for example; in THOSE cases the vast majority of the (large) Jewish populations were rural.
You've also got THAT a bit arse-about-face; Jews didn't have "access" to wealth BECUSE they lived in cities.....the Jews of the Diaspora who moved from place to place (as opposed to those that settled in identifiable Jewish colonies and communities) had to have their wealth in moveable, transferrable form. They invented the cheque and the formal credit note, for example, as ways of moving their wealth around with them without being encumbered by the actual metal
THAT'S why they were useful to Late Dark Age and Early medieval rulers - because they had a well-developed system in place across Europe by then for moving wealth about across national boundaries
In other words, the Jews invented modern banking. Who knew:D I guess that explains their prosperity.
Also, they've been integrated into European society for a long time, excepting the various pogoms and intolerance.
It was the oppression of Jewish people made that happen.
Throughout Europe and some parts of the world, Jewish people were banned from most trades and owning properties, which left them pretty much just one thing: Money.
Meanwhile, there was a universal ban on Christians borrowing and lending money among themselves, which caused a few headaches. Not enough marriages to go round for politically powerful families, who needed the money to fund their wars. The only avenue was the Church, which already owned most of their arses. (This basically how the Church became so powerful and wealthy during some certain time periods.)
There was a loophole, though. The universal ban wasn't extended to non-Christian people, such as Jewish people.
And that's how Jewish people became financiers, investors and bankers to the rich and the powerful in most countries, which in turn gave them opportunities to enter politics and business that allowed them to be part of historic economic movements and significant negotiations, especially in treaties, worldwide.
Along the way, they devised methods of transferring money to keep bandits and counterfeiters at bay as well as to keep track of transactions. Those methods gave birth to a banking system we know today.
Sorry for simplifying all that so heavily, but yes, it was the oppression and restrictions that made all that happen. Poetic justice at its finest.
You mean unlike this lot?
Mind you, if Fagin were used as the stereotype it would be a matter of him getting other people to steal, and face being caught, whilst he lived off the proceeds.