Having recently witnessed the way some GPs treat mental health issues, I'm not surprised that some folks end up in such a desperate place where their thinking has spiralled out of control and they think no-one will help them.
I think the point is that suicidal people are often not rational, otherwise they wouldn't be suicidal. I am sure that a parent that kills their child and then themselves is behaving in a completely irrational way that seems to them the only solution to whatever their state of mind is.
There's really little point in posts saying that it is that 'we would never do that and that it is evil' etc since we are not in that irrational state of mind. Much more reasonable to view the situation with compassion and treat it as the tragedy that it is (for the dead parent as well as the child).
If anyone wants to commit suicide, it is their life to do with what they want. But why kill the kids?
I have a problem with this whole subject, Suicide is something I find very (impossible) to understand, what makes a person so desperate that they give up and no longer want to live and allow the greatest enemy (death) to win in the titanic battle of life and death is (for those of us who haven't been to that place is unimaginable) so difficult.
My son had a period at the outset of his physical illness the chemicals, enzymes and other factors were really out of balance and these affected the way his mind worked, he started to harm himself and attempted to take his own life. As his body got used to the chemical imbalance these feelings passed and he stabilised and was pleased he didn’t succeed in his attempts.
But when someone becomes so desperate and feels the only way to solve their problem is to take the lives of others, as well as their own life I feel these people are very ill and the balance of hormones, enzymes and chemicals in their body and brain must be very far from normal.
Having said that, I also believe if children, young people and adults are raised with a clear set of principles and have a deep-set base of morals (right and wrong) then the risk of them hurting others or themself decreases substantially.
The sorts of standards I speak of here are not necessarily religious but should be clear and unambiguous. for one individual to take a life of another human being is never acceptable and to allow another human being to hurt others is wrong, we need such principals to become so deep-seated into our psyche that even when we 'lose our mind' we find that this deep-seated core response is still there.
I believe that over the past half century, with the reduction of religious teaching and the emphasis upon freedom to follow one’s own self devised ethics and moral path that this deep-seated conscience hasn't been created in the subconscious mind, as a result when some people get seriously depressed by life’s troubles, they lose their way and the outcome is very different to how it would be if they had developed this 'foundational basis' upon which they could stand.
I am not saying that suicide and infanticide never happened in the past (clearly it did) but we need a very clear set of 'inner rules' because if we have a period of 'hopelessness' this will carry us through and out of the other side.
In answer to your question I believe that I would never hurt another person (actually I couldn't hurt anything even an animal) I have so conditioned my mind that I am sure I would never hurt myself either. I have always believed that whatever the state of desperation and worthlessness felt by self. Life and pushing on is the right course and giving up is wrong.
I believe that even people without a religious belief (faith) can and should develop a 'belief system' this should include planning for depression should we be unfortunate enough to face it during our life. A belief system can include God but any psychologist will tell you that it does not have to include a god.
While we are raising, teaching and developing a child there is a belief system developing naturally within that individual. I believe we need to help every child to develop the basic principal that life is sacrosanct and precious and we should guard ours and other people’s lives with every bit of strength.
To be very honest, I have been suicidal a few times in the past when going through hard times, but as a father of 2 little boys I made sure I fought and fought it so my children didn't grow up without a father. I wouldn't dream of taking their life just because I didn't want to live.
To be very honest, I have been suicidal a few times in the past when going through hard times, but as a father of 2 little boys I made sure I fought and fought it so my children didn't grow up without a father. I wouldn't dream of taking their life just because I didn't want to live.
i think it`s a psychotic act, psychosis takes depression to another world.
To be very honest, I have been suicidal a few times in the past when going through hard times, but as a father of 2 little boys I made sure I fought and fought it so my children didn't grow up without a father. I wouldn't dream of taking their life just because I didn't want to live.
I should imagine if someone's depression becomes so deep and can't be "controlled" then it could likely lead to a different chain of thought.
I don't think I will ever understand how anyone could do that to their child, but perhaps thats because its not in me to do something like that. I can never understand why people do alot of things because its not in my make up to carry out these actions,
I feel desperately sorry for anyone that would ever feel that bad that they would considering doing something like that. Things have obviously got to desperate times, and felt they could not return from it. Perhaps if we as a human race were more compassionate and understand and less judgemental, people who feel these thoughts would have somewhere to turn.:(
I have a problem with this whole subject, Suicide is something I find very (impossible) to understand, what makes a person so desperate that they give up and no longer want to live and allow the greatest enemy (death) to win in the titanic battle of life and death is (for those of us who haven't been to that place is unimaginable) so difficult.
My son had a period at the outset of his physical illness the chemicals, enzymes and other factors were really out of balance and these affected the way his mind worked, he started to harm himself and attempted to take his own life. As his body got used to the chemical imbalance these feelings passed and he stabilised and was pleased he didn’t succeed in his attempts.
But when someone becomes so desperate and feels the only way to solve their problem is to take the lives of others, as well as their own life I feel these people are very ill and the balance of hormones, enzymes and chemicals in their body and brain must be very far from normal.
Having said that, I also believe if children, young people and adults are raised with a clear set of principles and have a deep-set base of morals (right and wrong) then the risk of them hurting others or themself decreases substantially.
The sorts of standards I speak of here are not necessarily religious but should be clear and unambiguous. for one individual to take a life of another human being is never acceptable and to allow another human being to hurt others is wrong, we need such principals to become so deep-seated into our psyche that even when we 'lose our mind' we find that this deep-seated core response is still there.
I believe that over the past half century, with the reduction of religious teaching and the emphasis upon freedom to follow one’s own self devised ethics and moral path that this deep-seated conscience hasn't been created in the subconscious mind, as a result when some people get seriously depressed by life’s troubles, they lose their way and the outcome is very different to how it would be if they had developed this 'foundational basis' upon which they could stand.
I am not saying that suicide and infanticide never happened in the past (clearly it did) but we need a very clear set of 'inner rules' because if we have a period of 'hopelessness' this will carry us through and out of the other side.
In answer to your question I believe that I would never hurt another person (actually I couldn't hurt anything even an animal) I have so conditioned my mind that I am sure I would never hurt myself either. I have always believed that whatever the state of desperation and worthlessness felt by self. Life and pushing on is the right course and giving up is wrong.
I believe that even people without a religious belief (faith) can and should develop a 'belief system' this should include planning for depression should we be unfortunate enough to face it during our life. A belief system can include God but any psychologist will tell you that it does not have to include a god.
While we are raising, teaching and developing a child there is a belief system developing naturally within that individual. I believe we need to help every child to develop the basic principal that life is sacrosanct and precious and we should guard ours and other people’s lives with every bit of strength.
The vast majority of atheists have moral standards and wouldn't kill their children, suicidal or not. In fact, people of faith have killed their children.
There was one famous case in the US where a Christian woman drowned all her children because she feared the Devil would get to them. She believed her children were going to Heaven and would no longer live in a troubled world, where the Devil and people in general could be out to get them.
I do wonder whether people could be influenced by the outcry of "But how could they leave their children alone like that?!?!" whenever a parent kills themselves without killing the kids.
The vast majority of atheists have moral standards and wouldn't kill their children, suicidal or not. In fact, people of faith have killed their children.
There was one famous case in the US where a Christian woman drowned all her children because she feared the Devil would get to them. She believed her children were going to Heaven and would no longer live in a troubled world, where the Devil and people in general could be out to get them.
I would bet more people of faith had killed children than athiests, faith seems to make people nutty
I think the point is that suicidal people are often not rational, otherwise they wouldn't be suicidal. I am sure that a parent that kills their child and then themselves is behaving in a completely irrational way that seems to them the only solution to whatever their state of mind is.
There's really little point in posts saying that it is that 'we would never do that and that it is evil' etc since we are not in that irrational state of mind. Much more reasonable to view the situation with compassion and treat it as the tragedy that it is (for the dead parent as well as the child).
Exactly, well put.
In addition, everyone has their own individual circumstances and people rarely have any idea what other people are going through, or of the circumstances in their lives - for example whether they have any support, family, friends, or whether they are completely alone. You never know the circumstances of the associated children either and how that might affect the thinking of the parent.
I have been suicidal but I don't have children. I have no idea if or how my thoughts would have been different if I had kids.
Also I just wanted to add that suicidal actions are not necessarily down to revenge or someone being evil. There is a clear lack of rational thought when experiencing suicidal tendencies and it's so complicated.
I just feel it's very difficult to comprehend what's going on in anyone else's head and what their associated issues/circumstances are. It's just very sad.
I think some parents in a suicidal state think that they are 'looking after' their kids, who can't manage or exist without them.
If the child has special needs, especially severe ones, this feeling that the child can't manage without them (and them alone) can be heightened. A child with special needs is often so much more attatched to and dependent on their main carer than a child without special needs.
You sometimes hear of mothers of children with severe disabilities killing themselves and their child too. I think it can be linked to this vicious circle of pressure of having to look after this child and them feeling they can't leave behind the burden on anyone else of something which is their sole responsibility.
If it is about the recent news story, I really think the woman had got very unwell and she should of been helped, also it makes me sad that she put she struggled with social services, she put that they lied and she thought they were trying to take the children. I really think that the approach of threatening people has got to stop, this Victorian approach does not help anyone who is actually ill, it just makes things worse. r.i.p. edit , sometimes you read stuff such as this and it does cross your mind, there might be more behind it, but I think she had just got very unwell.
I've been suicidal on a few occasions but could NEVER kill an innocent child. Why would I? They've not done any wrong. Only a sick individual would consider such an act of pure hatread and selfishness to inflict their depression etc on a child who's not deserving of it.
I can understand that maybe the parent doesn't want their child to grow up living a life of pain so perhaps taking them with them may seem a better option than living without their mother or father but that's not my decision to make. Taking your own life is selfish enough but killing an innocent child is pure unforgivable.
BIB - I'm being generous when I say I hope you mean they are extremely unwell.
I think the point is that suicidal people are often not rational, otherwise they wouldn't be suicidal. I am sure that a parent that kills their child and then themselves is behaving in a completely irrational way that seems to them the only solution to whatever their state of mind is.
There's really little point in posts saying that it is that 'we would never do that and that it is evil' etc since we are not in that irrational state of mind. Much more reasonable to view the situation with compassion and treat it as the tragedy that it is (for the dead parent as well as the child).
But then could you not say the same about any psychopath, child killer or paedophile? They all have an "irrational state of mind" in a sense, but we do not generally feel any compassion for them do we?
If it is about the recent news story, I really think the woman had got very unwell and she should of been helped, also it makes me sad that she put she struggled with social services, she put that they lied and she thought they were trying to take the children. I really think that the approach of threatening people has got to stop, this Victorian approach does not help anyone who is actually ill, it just makes things worse. r.i.p. edit , sometimes you read stuff such as this and it does cross your mind, there might be more behind it, but I think she had just got very unwell.
We really do not know the circustances at all. She should have been helped? It appears that the woman was afraid that the children would be taken away from her. Maybe Social Services has tried to help. They are in an awful position. Damned if they do and damned if they don't. Damned if they don't take the children away if there appears to be harm done. But, damned if they threaten to take the children away before there is harm done.
The woman according to her family has suffered with mental health issues for years. Maybe this should have been a consideration before having children. Nevertheless she was very ill and nothing can bring them back now. It is all so sad.
Comments
This is the way I felt when I heard it. These people just are not in their right mind, so how can we possibly try to understand it?
It is so sad.
BIB Agree.
I have a problem with this whole subject, Suicide is something I find very (impossible) to understand, what makes a person so desperate that they give up and no longer want to live and allow the greatest enemy (death) to win in the titanic battle of life and death is (for those of us who haven't been to that place is unimaginable) so difficult.
My son had a period at the outset of his physical illness the chemicals, enzymes and other factors were really out of balance and these affected the way his mind worked, he started to harm himself and attempted to take his own life. As his body got used to the chemical imbalance these feelings passed and he stabilised and was pleased he didn’t succeed in his attempts.
But when someone becomes so desperate and feels the only way to solve their problem is to take the lives of others, as well as their own life I feel these people are very ill and the balance of hormones, enzymes and chemicals in their body and brain must be very far from normal.
Having said that, I also believe if children, young people and adults are raised with a clear set of principles and have a deep-set base of morals (right and wrong) then the risk of them hurting others or themself decreases substantially.
The sorts of standards I speak of here are not necessarily religious but should be clear and unambiguous. for one individual to take a life of another human being is never acceptable and to allow another human being to hurt others is wrong, we need such principals to become so deep-seated into our psyche that even when we 'lose our mind' we find that this deep-seated core response is still there.
I believe that over the past half century, with the reduction of religious teaching and the emphasis upon freedom to follow one’s own self devised ethics and moral path that this deep-seated conscience hasn't been created in the subconscious mind, as a result when some people get seriously depressed by life’s troubles, they lose their way and the outcome is very different to how it would be if they had developed this 'foundational basis' upon which they could stand.
I am not saying that suicide and infanticide never happened in the past (clearly it did) but we need a very clear set of 'inner rules' because if we have a period of 'hopelessness' this will carry us through and out of the other side.
In answer to your question I believe that I would never hurt another person (actually I couldn't hurt anything even an animal) I have so conditioned my mind that I am sure I would never hurt myself either. I have always believed that whatever the state of desperation and worthlessness felt by self. Life and pushing on is the right course and giving up is wrong.
I believe that even people without a religious belief (faith) can and should develop a 'belief system' this should include planning for depression should we be unfortunate enough to face it during our life. A belief system can include God but any psychologist will tell you that it does not have to include a god.
While we are raising, teaching and developing a child there is a belief system developing naturally within that individual. I believe we need to help every child to develop the basic principal that life is sacrosanct and precious and we should guard ours and other people’s lives with every bit of strength.
i think it`s a psychotic act, psychosis takes depression to another world.
I should imagine if someone's depression becomes so deep and can't be "controlled" then it could likely lead to a different chain of thought.
I feel desperately sorry for anyone that would ever feel that bad that they would considering doing something like that. Things have obviously got to desperate times, and felt they could not return from it. Perhaps if we as a human race were more compassionate and understand and less judgemental, people who feel these thoughts would have somewhere to turn.:(
I remember the overwhelming sadness I felt when I read about the Pilkington case, and this latest case is just so very sad.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9942971/Fiona-Pilkington-case-could-happen-again.html
The vast majority of atheists have moral standards and wouldn't kill their children, suicidal or not. In fact, people of faith have killed their children.
There was one famous case in the US where a Christian woman drowned all her children because she feared the Devil would get to them. She believed her children were going to Heaven and would no longer live in a troubled world, where the Devil and people in general could be out to get them.
Exactly, trying to rationalise part of the actions of a person irrational enough to kill themselves is a non-starter.
I would bet more people of faith had killed children than athiests, faith seems to make people nutty
Exactly, well put.
In addition, everyone has their own individual circumstances and people rarely have any idea what other people are going through, or of the circumstances in their lives - for example whether they have any support, family, friends, or whether they are completely alone. You never know the circumstances of the associated children either and how that might affect the thinking of the parent.
I have been suicidal but I don't have children. I have no idea if or how my thoughts would have been different if I had kids.
Also I just wanted to add that suicidal actions are not necessarily down to revenge or someone being evil. There is a clear lack of rational thought when experiencing suicidal tendencies and it's so complicated.
I just feel it's very difficult to comprehend what's going on in anyone else's head and what their associated issues/circumstances are. It's just very sad.
If the child has special needs, especially severe ones, this feeling that the child can't manage without them (and them alone) can be heightened. A child with special needs is often so much more attatched to and dependent on their main carer than a child without special needs.
You sometimes hear of mothers of children with severe disabilities killing themselves and their child too. I think it can be linked to this vicious circle of pressure of having to look after this child and them feeling they can't leave behind the burden on anyone else of something which is their sole responsibility.
BIB - I'm being generous when I say I hope you mean they are extremely unwell.
But then could you not say the same about any psychopath, child killer or paedophile? They all have an "irrational state of mind" in a sense, but we do not generally feel any compassion for them do we?
Really? And, what excuse do atheists have then?
We really do not know the circustances at all. She should have been helped? It appears that the woman was afraid that the children would be taken away from her. Maybe Social Services has tried to help. They are in an awful position. Damned if they do and damned if they don't. Damned if they don't take the children away if there appears to be harm done. But, damned if they threaten to take the children away before there is harm done.
The woman according to her family has suffered with mental health issues for years. Maybe this should have been a consideration before having children. Nevertheless she was very ill and nothing can bring them back now. It is all so sad.