BBC Two Traders Millions by the minute

Prince MonaluluPrince Monalulu Posts: 35,900
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Traders: Millions by the Minute

Two-part documentary series which goes inside the fast and fiercely competitive world of financial traders to meet the men and women who play the markets in London, New York, Chicago and Amsterdam.

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  • InspirationInspiration Posts: 62,694
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    Fascinating little documentary. I've just recently dipped a small toe into the stock exchange so it's quite interesting for me. I do however think the angle it's taking is a little one sided. Could use an example or two of people who perhaps regret ever getting involved in trading.
  • Chris1964Chris1964 Posts: 19,725
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    Fascinating stuff.
    I didn't know this world existed-at least not the man or woman in the street.
    I might even be a little bit tempted.

    One thing as an aside -football has come along way from "jumpers for goalposts" and half time oranges.
  • Chris1964Chris1964 Posts: 19,725
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    Fascinating little documentary. I've just recently dipped a small toe into the stock exchange so it's quite interesting for me. I do however think the angle it's taking is a little one sided. Could use an example or two of people who perhaps regret ever getting involved in trading.

    .........I thought that too. It would have hurt the cheery tone of the programme-but it would have been more realistic.
  • LostFoolLostFool Posts: 90,623
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    Interesting stuff. It's something that I've thought about doing but I know I would never have the nerve.

    They were mostly normal enough people apart from that OCD living Porsche owning fitness fanatic who was a perfect "merchant banker". ("£50m? It's not that much money.")
  • Sammy2Sammy2 Posts: 2,632
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    Surprised by comments here, fascinating, fascinating, interesting

    It was alright in places, but a lot of the very normal people they interviewed didn't make for thrilling tv. I suppose that was partly the point though

    The Rene guy who seemed to be £6k down after 7 years trading, he must have been very rich after quitting antiques dealing to still be getting by fine?
  • LordBobbinLordBobbin Posts: 359
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    Sammy2 wrote: »
    The Rene guy who seemed to be £6k down after 7 years trading, he must have been very rich after quitting antiques dealing to still be getting by fine?


    I was also wondering how he was managing to make ends meet, having not apparently had any money coming in for seven years. Presumably his mortgage was all paid off, and he had made enough extra to give himself a pot to live off for a while. Judging from his sister's comments, though, he was pretty much out of that pot now, and was really beginning to feel the pinch. There was clearly a lot of tension bubbling under the surface, so I suspect he's rather kidding himself when he tells himself that his new business is making him happy.

    I wouldn't fancy his long-term chances, either. He still seemed utterly fixated and gripped with fear by the prospect of losing - even though he was clearly betting with only a few pounds at a time.

    You'll always get losses while trading, but provided you know you have a sound strategy that's profitable in the long term, losses shoudn't matter to you. The impression I got was that he still didn't really have a trading strategy sorted out, and was simply out of his depth. Much the same could be said of the old dodderers (who clearly didn't have a clue what they were doing) and the kitten lady (who was betting far too much relative to her fund).
  • StrakerStraker Posts: 79,567
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    Sammy2 wrote: »
    The Rene guy who seemed to be £6k down after 7 years trading, he must have been very rich after quitting antiques dealing to still be getting by fine?

    That was weird. Was said he could earn a month`s money selling antiques for just 3 days so why not do that and trade the rest of the time instead of just chasing spiralling losses?

    The gym-freak`s GF clearly loved the life and the money. Why do I get the feeling she`d not be with him if he wasn`t coining it in?

    After just re-watching the Enron documentary I`ve got varying levels of contempt for anyone in the financial services field anyway so my gag reflex was twitching throughout the two hours.
  • LordBobbinLordBobbin Posts: 359
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    Straker wrote: »
    That was weird. Was said he could earn a month`s money selling antiques for just 3 days so why not do that and trade the rest of the time instead of just chasing spiralling losses?


    No. It didn't really make sense. I also didn't quite understand why he thought the antiques business to be so beneath him, but considered market trading to be on a much higher plane. I would have thought it requires a fair amount of knowledge, skill and judgement to successfully trade antiques over the long-term.

    Methinks there's a tiny bit of a personal crisis going on with him that he seems unprepared to face up to.
  • snoweyowlsnoweyowl Posts: 1,922
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    Straker wrote: »
    That was weird. Was said he could earn a month`s money selling antiques for just 3 days so why not do that and trade the rest of the time instead of just chasing spiralling losses? .

    He was lying. I have knowledge of both and antiques is vastly more hard graft.
  • Trsvis_BickleTrsvis_Bickle Posts: 9,202
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    LordBobbin wrote: »
    You'll always get losses while trading, but provided you know you have a sound strategy that's profitable in the long term, losses shoudn't matter to you. The impression I got was that he still didn't really have a trading strategy sorted out, and was simply out of his depth. Much the same could be said of the old dodderers (who clearly didn't have a clue what they were doing) and the kitten lady (who was betting far too much relative to her fund).

    Mmm, much like the problem of who actually puts the bell on the cat, I think is probably the tricky bit...:D
  • urbanhermiturbanhermit Posts: 103
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    LordBobbin wrote: »
    I was also wondering how he was managing to make ends meet, having not apparently had any money coming in for seven years. Presumably his mortgage was all paid off, and he had made enough extra to give himself a pot to live off for a while. Judging from his sister's comments, though, he was pretty much out of that pot now, and was really beginning to feel the pinch. There was clearly a lot of tension bubbling under the surface, so I suspect he's rather kidding himself when he tells himself that his new business is making him happy.

    I wouldn't fancy his long-term chances, either. He still seemed utterly fixated and gripped with fear by the prospect of losing - even though he was clearly betting with only a few pounds at a time.

    You'll always get losses while trading, but provided you know you have a sound strategy that's profitable in the long term, losses shoudn't matter to you. The impression I got was that he still didn't really have a trading strategy sorted out, and was simply out of his depth. Much the same could be said of the old dodderers (who clearly didn't have a clue what they were doing) and the kitten lady (who was betting far too much relative to her fund).

    What I found really frightening, was that no-one seemed to be using stop losses ;-)
  • LordBobbinLordBobbin Posts: 359
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    Mmm, much like the problem of who actually puts the bell on the cat, I think is probably the tricky bit...:D


    Well yes. Psychology is important, since it's all too easy to blow good work by chasing losses. But once you've learned to temper that to a certain degree, it's only then that the hard work starts of devising an approach that can allow you to gain genuine profit over a long period. The fact that the chap's still obsessing about getting himself into a calm state of mind tells me he isn't within a country mile of 'cracking it'.

    Also, concerning Justyn, the one trying to snag the footballers. It might be just that something isn't working on my browser, but there doesn't appear to be a great deal of activity on his Twitter account prior to this series being shown. I just can't help but feel there's something dodgy somewhere... https://twitter.com/trader187
  • LostFoolLostFool Posts: 90,623
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    LordBobbin wrote: »
    Also, concerning Justyn, the one trying to snag the footballers. It might be just that something isn't working on my browser, but there doesn't appear to be a great deal of activity on his Twitter account prior to this series being shown. I just can't help but feel there's something dodgy somewhere... https://twitter.com/trader187

    Certainly looked a bit dodgy. I know footballers aren't the brightest in the world but trusting your investments to a couple of guys who work from a spare bedroom might not be the best idea. Shouldn't they be authorised and regulated by the FCA?
  • IJoinedInMayIJoinedInMay Posts: 26,317
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    I watched a repeat of the second episode last night. I liked the woman the most. She seemed relatively grounded (as proven by her excitement over a £50 profit). Rene was a bit of a dreamer but nice enough and the two young blokes were a bit too materialistic for me (wanting to be in with the footballer crowd; showing off the fast car and planning trainer collections).

    As for Fitness Fanatic, well, the footage spoke for itself. He gave the impression that he'd been waiting for a programme like this to come calling all his life, so that he could show off.
  • snoweyowlsnoweyowl Posts: 1,922
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    LostFool wrote: »
    Certainly looked a bit dodgy. I know footballers aren't the brightest in the world but trusting your investments to a couple of guys who work from a spare bedroom might not be the best idea. Shouldn't they be authorised and regulated by the FCA?

    A good point about regulation. Also if you are wizardly good at this sort of thing (virtually nobody is) you won't be needing anybody else's money to trade with. I found most of the people in this show convincing but these two sounded like a cracked bell.
  • LordBobbinLordBobbin Posts: 359
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    snoweyowl wrote: »
    Also if you are wizardly good at this sort of thing (virtually nobody is) you won't be needing anybody else's money to trade with.


    That's not totally true. Although, in theory, you can turn a small pot into a very large pot, in practice it's very difficult to do, no matter how good you are, and will probably take you a fair amount of time. But trading a large fund on behalf of somebody else - even though you're only taking a cut of the profits - can push you high up the ladder in a fairly short time period.

    I'd imagine Justyn and his friend are using this programme as a vehicle for trying to get their paws on as large a chunk of somebody else's money as possible. Whether they'll have the ability to justify their hype, though, I'm not at all sure.
  • LordBobbinLordBobbin Posts: 359
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    I liked the woman the most. She seemed relatively grounded (as proven by her excitement over a £50 profit).


    She was nice, but totally out of her depth, and extremely unbusinesslike. She'd lost over a third of the money by the end of the show, and I suspect she'll be considerably more down by now.

    I'd like to know if there was any substance to her paper trading system. I'm willing to bet not.
  • PitmanPitman Posts: 28,495
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    that Rene was a card wasn't he? :D not making a penny for years but convinced he was becoming better at trading;-), and I bet his sister isn't that diplomatic when the cameras aren't pointing at her :p
  • IJoinedInMayIJoinedInMay Posts: 26,317
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    LordBobbin wrote: »
    She was nice, but totally out of her depth, and extremely unbusinesslike. She'd lost over a third of the money by the end of the show, and I suspect she'll be considerably more down by now.

    I'd like to know if there was any substance to her paper trading system. I'm willing to bet not.

    That's why I liked her! I find her "have a go" attitude more endearing than those who are more methodical and successful.
  • SaddlerSteveSaddlerSteve Posts: 4,325
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    LordBobbin wrote: »
    She was nice, but totally out of her depth, and extremely unbusinesslike. She'd lost over a third of the money by the end of the show, and I suspect she'll be considerably more down by now.

    I'd like to know if there was any substance to her paper trading system. I'm willing to bet not.

    Unfortunately I don't think she has the right temperament. After her first loss she seemed preoccupied with getting herself back to breaking even before then going on to making a profit. I suspect she probably got a bit desperate to make the £300 back then that led to more losses which snowballed into being down over £2k.

    I don't think there was necessarily anything wrong with the "paper based" system as it was still using the same real life data, the only difference was no real money was being put on. Though that may play a part as people probably make different decisions subconsciously when they know there's teal money involved. I know she said she made a mistake which led to the £300 loss but I suspect after the first 2 days of £100 profit each day she may have thought she'd got it sussed and put more on the 3rd day thinking she's make a bigger profit.
  • LordBobbinLordBobbin Posts: 359
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    That's why I liked her! I find her "have a go" attitude more endearing than those who are more methodical and successful.


    Yeah, but despite what the television programmes and films like to suggest, the financial markets aren't a great place for a 'have a go' attitude. If you don't have a very clear idea of what you're doing, you'll get butchered.

    Doing what she did, and setting aside what (I assume) is a fairly decent chunk of money for her, is a recipe for disaster. The pressure's just too much, particularly if you don't have a cast-iron game plan.

    It would be far better for her to start out with a relatively piffling amount and learn the ropes over time. If she had set aside a small but non-essential portion of her salary every month, knowing that if she lost all of it, she could simply start again from scratch with her next salary cheque, she'd give herself a much better chance of winning.
  • LordBobbinLordBobbin Posts: 359
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    I don't think there was necessarily anything wrong with the "paper based" system as it was still using the same real life data, the only difference was no real money was being put on.


    It depends how seriously you take the paper trading, and how much you know. If you have a strong plan and execute it exactly as you would (and using the same size of bet) in real life, paper trading can be a good way of testing your approach in a 'live' situation.

    Unfortunately, though, you can take liberties with paper trading systems that you can't with real money. You often get a much larger pot, and that allows you to play some big trades to let you get 'back on track'. Many paper traders are fantasists who're too keen to dismiss the bad trades they made, particularly if they're increasing their bet size to atone for poor mistakes.

    Most paper trading accounts show a good profit, and yet the majority of those people will lose money as soon as they transfer to the real thing. Some of that is down to the fear of losing real money, but it's just as often down to the fact that the player didn't have a system that will show a profit with level stakes. Paper trading frequently masks that.
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