It is sad, but lets not forget it was only a small group of people. By all means it should be talked about and condemned by all, without feeling the need to say "but some none Muslims do it". Yeah we know and we condemn that without the need of saying "but some Muslims do it".
Interesting to see the extremists use the old "argument" <roll eyes> of "free speech" being used to justify what they are chanting.
OK, so who is allowed free speech?.
Everyone except Muslims?.
The fact is we are either ALL entitled to the level of free speech the law allows, or none of us are.
If any of those nutters in the OP's video break the law (or those in the EDL video too) then they should, quite rightly, face the consequences.
If they stay within the law then both groups are entitled to chant all they want, even if we disagree with their sentiments.
The fact is we are either ALL entitled to the level of free speech the law allows, or none of us are.
If any of those nutters in the OP's video break the law (or those in the EDL video too) then they should, quite rightly, face the consequences.
If they stay within the law then both groups are entitled to chant all they want, even if we disagree with their sentiments.
Of course everyone is allowed free speech.
Free speech allows you you say stuff but it does not justify what is being said.
Free speech allows some to say "all Muslim should go home" (a ridiculous claim, but its one that is used), but does "free speech" answer the question "why do you think all Muslims should go home?".
Of course the answer of "I have right to say it because i have free speech", does at least tell us they are ashamed of the actual reasons they said it.
I don't use the law to determine what I think is right to chant and what isn't.
It's a shame people frame their views like that when in reality they do have an agenda. They hide behind "my best friend is black" or "my cousin's boyfriend's hairdresser is homosexual". It's a shame they can't be honest with themselves. But we all know what they really mean so it's a moot point.
You want me to tell that poster that I don't think the OP was outraged? Happy to do so. I don't think that changed much in the grand scheme of things. In fact it seemed to be a demand only you have made.
Agenda, i live in leicester where whites a minority and i am only 1 of 2 "white english" players in my team so how is at an agenda, i have black people i dislike much like white people and foreigners but i dont hide my feeling on stuff.
muslim fanatics and christian fanatics are as bad as each other.
i dont know why the muslims always get the most bad press.
i find them all equally as deluded and deranged, i guess the reason is there are actually countries full of the deluded and deranged muslims, such as saudi arabia etc .
You don't know that to be so in every case though.
Mind none of that matters in your case because anybody critical of islam/muslims has an agendas in your book.
No and you know I didn't mean that either, mind I didn't expect anything else from you - brothers 'n all that.
Then I guess I must be critical of myself given i criticise the religion and have done so regularly. Your selective post reading and will to deny the reality to fit in with your own idea about Muslims (which is flawed given Muslims like me openly criticise aspects of our own faith - which you are in denial about) indicates you have no position that is tenable.
The brothers bit is laughable and just shows how pathetically little you seem to know about Muslims given how much you post on the subject.
Then why isn't there, it shouldn't be that difficult to unite against the nut jobs because after all, they are doing them no favours.
Perhaps the mosque leaders could put on a united front and let the rest follow from there.
Looking at how much violence there is in the world today ( still ) I can appreciate your outrage but the average moderate Muslim can no more stop the extremists than the average Irish person couid stop the IRA and the thugs associated with them.
One British Muslim started wearing the Burka as a teenager against her parents wishes, which shows how some people will ignore those around them and follow their own path.
Christian Britain was a very brutal place in centuries gone by, including hanging children for the crime of petty theft - bearing in mind poor children really did starve to death during those years when crops failed. Extremist Islam is like fundermentalist Christianity all those years ago but as the world becomes smaller and smaller thanks to the Internet and the more of the world becomes 'modernised' ( which is already happening in parts of Asia ) extremist Islam may shrink away like fundermentalist Christianity has - at least the brutal side.
I'm probably going off in the wrong way here but why is that "some of my best friends are..." always seen as admission that the person is racist or sexist or whatever the topic is? If someone is accused of hating black people then surely them mentioning that they have quite a few black friends is simply them trying to prove they are not in fact against black people?
The original meaning if we take a person in trust is as you say and it proves that they should be taken seriously. However statements like that have been hijacked by some posters to try to legitimise their view of intolerance as being valid because they do have relationships with those of the minority.
A decent level of outrage being a suitable unifying force...
Do we assume therefore that such a level hasn't been reached within mainstream Islam?
I don't think it ever will because there will be those who disown any behaviour performed by others as being of a different sect, nationality, etc. There is no unity. Yes there are those who want things like a global Islamic authority, but even they don't all agree on how it should come about or what to do (in theoretical debates) about non-Muslims etc.
The laziest most asinine debating method of saying "it's your fault, why aren't you all doing something about it?" is a popular one in these debates. It is also the most ignorant view given anyone with an understanding of the history of Islam and how it exists across the world today would know full well why there isn't a unified group of Muslims. It's an interesting debating technique - playing dumb just to continue the delivery of the intolerant message - but some on here have it down to a fine art.
None of this matters too much in the context that yes, there are issues in Islam to do with modernity (treatment of women, apostates and more), irrespective of terrorism or fundamentalism and that these are further issues to contend with on top.
For such a small minority they make a lot of noise, it's shame the majority aren't as vocal against them.
I don't think it's fair to expect ordinary Muslims to go out of their way to be 'vocal' about Islamic extremism. They just want to live a normal peaceful life like most other people. Why should they feel obligated to go out of their way to condemn Islamic terrorism/extremism when it occurs? They are no more or less obligated than any other member of society.
No, it's being real. What's pathetic is your desire to make it all about 'teh Muzzies'. You have no clue anymore than anyone does about how to resolve extremism in Islam.
Don't try that language with me because you know full well I'm not like that.
And btw I'm not trying to resolve the extremism because that can only be done by muslims themselves, one way is to unite against extremists - it can be done and it's about time the religious leaders put on a united front to fight it.
I don't think it's fair to expect ordinary Muslims to go out of their way to be 'vocal' about Islamic extremism. They just want to live a normal peaceful life like most other people. Why should they feel obligated to go out of their way to condemn Islamic terrorism/extremism when it occurs? They are no more or less obligated than any other member of society.
I can't see why not, after all that lot in the clip seem united for their cause so why not form and protest against islamic extremism.
There are plenty of different protest groups throughout the country so why not one against the nutjobs - it would help shut the EDL up too.
I don't think it's fair to expect ordinary Muslims to go out of their way to be 'vocal' about Islamic extremism. They just want to live a normal peaceful life like most other people. Why should they feel obligated to go out of their way to condemn Islamic terrorism/extremism when it occurs? They are no more or less obligated than any other member of society.
Let me re-edit that to illustrate something...
I don't think it's fair to expect ordinary people to go out of their way to be 'vocal' about extremism. They just want to live a normal peaceful life like most other people. Why should they feel obligated to go out of their way to condemn terrorism/extremism when it occurs? They are no more or less obligated than any other member of society.
I couldn't care what they think as neither heaven nor hell exist.
well obviously.
but thats another thing, why do people care?
some old woman at the gym told me i was going to hell once, because i didnt believe in 'the word of god', i told someone else at the gym what she had said to me, and their reaction was ''oh my god how dare she, she had no right to say that''. and i just said why should i care? its like telling me i wont graduate at hogwarts like harry potter.
why would anyone care that they are being condemned to some fictional land ruled by the big red creature with pointy ears and a triangle tail ?
No, because I was clearly talking about Muslims in particular being expected to criticise Islamic extremism in particular. In light of that, your edit makes no sense in relation to the particular point I was making.
I can't see why not, after all that lot in the clip seem united for their cause so why not form and protest against islamic extremism.
There are plenty of different protest groups throughout the country so why not one against the nutjobs - it would help shut the EDL up too.
Well, speaking as an atheist, if Richard Dawkins snapped one day and murdered the Pope, I'd hope that most people would have the common sense to understand that most atheists would think that murdering the Pope was rather gauche and unsportsmanlike. Muslims probably take the same view when they see the swivel-eyed Islamists venting their spleens on telly.
I can't see why not, after all that lot in the clip seem united for their cause so why not form and protest against islamic extremism.
There are plenty of different protest groups throughout the country so why not one against the nutjobs - it would help shut the EDL up too.
A quick Google shows there are other Muslims and Muslim groups who are opposed to extremism.
Besides, we've done all this before again and again in similar threads, links have been posted again and again to prominent Muslims who are against extremism and have even been on TV saying so, as well as to stories about some Mosques and Imams who hold meetings and discussions about how to deal with it and try and steer those who may be vulnerable to extremism down a different path.
But it doesn't matter, because in a few months there will be another thread and we'll be going over the same ground again with people saying no Muslims ever speak out against it.
I have Irish friends, had the same friends during the height of the IRA activities. Not once did they attend marches about what was being done in the name of their religion or political stance, and neither did they attend marches against it. They were more interested in getting on with their lives, working for a living and bringing up their families. They didn't hold the same beliefs in violence as the IRA, so even though they were Irish Catholic and supported a United Ireland but didn't support the violence, they didn't feel the IRA represented them. But a couple of them did experience prejudice and violence from English and Scottish people just because they were Irish, and because they didn't speak out they must be supporters of the IRA. Seems that idea hasn't changed much in 40 odd years.
in america the christians are just as nutty as the muslims.
Are they? Do they go to Muslim countries and blow up buildings, trains, shopping centres, themselves and whatever else with the sole aim of killing as many Muslims as possible because they don't agree with their beliefs?
Comments
OK, so who is allowed free speech?.
Everyone except Muslims?.
The fact is we are either ALL entitled to the level of free speech the law allows, or none of us are.
If any of those nutters in the OP's video break the law (or those in the EDL video too) then they should, quite rightly, face the consequences.
If they stay within the law then both groups are entitled to chant all they want, even if we disagree with their sentiments.
Free speech allows you you say stuff but it does not justify what is being said.
Free speech allows some to say "all Muslim should go home" (a ridiculous claim, but its one that is used), but does "free speech" answer the question "why do you think all Muslims should go home?".
Of course the answer of "I have right to say it because i have free speech", does at least tell us they are ashamed of the actual reasons they said it.
I don't use the law to determine what I think is right to chant and what isn't.
Just seen a news video from india of a father who got caught burying his baby daughter alive because he wanted a boy instead..that had me outraged.
White people beating a black student just because the color of his skin had me outraged.
First time i had seen the video and not sure if anyone else had seen it before. But dont let stop posters jumping to conclusions
Agenda, i live in leicester where whites a minority and i am only 1 of 2 "white english" players in my team so how is at an agenda, i have black people i dislike much like white people and foreigners but i dont hide my feeling on stuff.
Green) - telling him to 'burn in Hell'?
What a nasty thing to say!
DIXON: (SURROUNDED BY FLAMES)
"'Ello, 'ello. 'ello, what's goin' on 'ere, then?"
i dont know why the muslims always get the most bad press.
i find them all equally as deluded and deranged, i guess the reason is there are actually countries full of the deluded and deranged muslims, such as saudi arabia etc .
Do we assume therefore that such a level hasn't been reached within mainstream Islam?
Ah but there does not need to be.
The Koran needs edited with the threats that some Muslims put in practice removed.
Then I guess I must be critical of myself given i criticise the religion and have done so regularly. Your selective post reading and will to deny the reality to fit in with your own idea about Muslims (which is flawed given Muslims like me openly criticise aspects of our own faith - which you are in denial about) indicates you have no position that is tenable.
The brothers bit is laughable and just shows how pathetically little you seem to know about Muslims given how much you post on the subject.
Looking at how much violence there is in the world today ( still ) I can appreciate your outrage but the average moderate Muslim can no more stop the extremists than the average Irish person couid stop the IRA and the thugs associated with them.
One British Muslim started wearing the Burka as a teenager against her parents wishes, which shows how some people will ignore those around them and follow their own path.
Christian Britain was a very brutal place in centuries gone by, including hanging children for the crime of petty theft - bearing in mind poor children really did starve to death during those years when crops failed. Extremist Islam is like fundermentalist Christianity all those years ago but as the world becomes smaller and smaller thanks to the Internet and the more of the world becomes 'modernised' ( which is already happening in parts of Asia ) extremist Islam may shrink away like fundermentalist Christianity has - at least the brutal side.
The original meaning if we take a person in trust is as you say and it proves that they should be taken seriously. However statements like that have been hijacked by some posters to try to legitimise their view of intolerance as being valid because they do have relationships with those of the minority.
No comparison.
You don't know why? :cool:
Really, you have to be joking
I don't think it ever will because there will be those who disown any behaviour performed by others as being of a different sect, nationality, etc. There is no unity. Yes there are those who want things like a global Islamic authority, but even they don't all agree on how it should come about or what to do (in theoretical debates) about non-Muslims etc.
The laziest most asinine debating method of saying "it's your fault, why aren't you all doing something about it?" is a popular one in these debates. It is also the most ignorant view given anyone with an understanding of the history of Islam and how it exists across the world today would know full well why there isn't a unified group of Muslims. It's an interesting debating technique - playing dumb just to continue the delivery of the intolerant message - but some on here have it down to a fine art.
None of this matters too much in the context that yes, there are issues in Islam to do with modernity (treatment of women, apostates and more), irrespective of terrorism or fundamentalism and that these are further issues to contend with on top.
those silly burkha things ?
though i have always quite fancied one as winter wear.
in america the christians are just as nutty as the muslims.
I don't think it's fair to expect ordinary Muslims to go out of their way to be 'vocal' about Islamic extremism. They just want to live a normal peaceful life like most other people. Why should they feel obligated to go out of their way to condemn Islamic terrorism/extremism when it occurs? They are no more or less obligated than any other member of society.
Don't try that language with me because you know full well I'm not like that.
And btw I'm not trying to resolve the extremism because that can only be done by muslims themselves, one way is to unite against extremists - it can be done and it's about time the religious leaders put on a united front to fight it.
I can't see why not, after all that lot in the clip seem united for their cause so why not form and protest against islamic extremism.
There are plenty of different protest groups throughout the country so why not one against the nutjobs - it would help shut the EDL up too.
Let me re-edit that to illustrate something...
Do you STILL agree with that sentiment???
well obviously.
but thats another thing, why do people care?
some old woman at the gym told me i was going to hell once, because i didnt believe in 'the word of god', i told someone else at the gym what she had said to me, and their reaction was ''oh my god how dare she, she had no right to say that''. and i just said why should i care? its like telling me i wont graduate at hogwarts like harry potter.
why would anyone care that they are being condemned to some fictional land ruled by the big red creature with pointy ears and a triangle tail ?
No, because I was clearly talking about Muslims in particular being expected to criticise Islamic extremism in particular. In light of that, your edit makes no sense in relation to the particular point I was making.
Well, speaking as an atheist, if Richard Dawkins snapped one day and murdered the Pope, I'd hope that most people would have the common sense to understand that most atheists would think that murdering the Pope was rather gauche and unsportsmanlike. Muslims probably take the same view when they see the swivel-eyed Islamists venting their spleens on telly.
A quick Google shows there are other Muslims and Muslim groups who are opposed to extremism.
Besides, we've done all this before again and again in similar threads, links have been posted again and again to prominent Muslims who are against extremism and have even been on TV saying so, as well as to stories about some Mosques and Imams who hold meetings and discussions about how to deal with it and try and steer those who may be vulnerable to extremism down a different path.
But it doesn't matter, because in a few months there will be another thread and we'll be going over the same ground again with people saying no Muslims ever speak out against it.
I have Irish friends, had the same friends during the height of the IRA activities. Not once did they attend marches about what was being done in the name of their religion or political stance, and neither did they attend marches against it. They were more interested in getting on with their lives, working for a living and bringing up their families. They didn't hold the same beliefs in violence as the IRA, so even though they were Irish Catholic and supported a United Ireland but didn't support the violence, they didn't feel the IRA represented them. But a couple of them did experience prejudice and violence from English and Scottish people just because they were Irish, and because they didn't speak out they must be supporters of the IRA. Seems that idea hasn't changed much in 40 odd years.
No, those silly Bomb things.
I await a Christian flying a plane into some building and killing over 3000 people.
Let me know when it happens incase I miss it. ;-)
Are they? Do they go to Muslim countries and blow up buildings, trains, shopping centres, themselves and whatever else with the sole aim of killing as many Muslims as possible because they don't agree with their beliefs?