No it doesn't. Not even close. It was your words talking about equally to blame,not mine. My point, which you appear to be intent on ignoring with your rhetorical questions is whether there is even an open debate/investigation by the Independent Panel & MPs any more.
I'm not intent on ignoring anything thank you very much. You talk in riddles I'm afraid.
If the bereaved families are satisfied with the results of this report who is anyone to question it?
They are saying it to try and shut them up. It's not news. That much is obvious surely
I'm done on this now too.
The professionals who run the news channels and the newspapers would probably disagree with you - they'be been running with this supposedly non-news story all day on TV and the tomorrow's papers are full of it too. This is a massive news story so the reporting will probably continue for some time yet.
I think I've made it pretty explicit that I'm concerned about the possibility that some actions by LFC fans may have been a contributing factor is now completely ignored due to political factors.
Amazing that you can even suggest this, Remember what has been highlighted today, 23 yrs of fighting for truth and justice. many obstacles and lies have been put in front of the familes. yet some say Liverpool fans that day cant be criticized, trust me they we were more than criticised they were vilified, it's taken many years to prove they were the heroes that day.
I often think, it's a good job the fans were so good that day for another reason, it would have given all the people trying to save their skins and the mud slingers ammunition.
going back even just a couple of years ago it was the same old slurs, now the slurs have got less and less,
the accusations less outrageous, now we are down to slurs that are down to opinion,just insults really.
The professionals who run the news channels and the newspapers would probably disagree with you - they'be been running with this supposedly non-news story all day on TV and the tomorrow's papers are full of it too. This is a massive news story so the reporting will probably continue for some time yet.[/QUOTE]
It'll be interesting to see how far it goes, if other details are revealed.
No it doesn't. Not even close. It was your words talking about "as much to blame", not mine.
My point, which you appear to be intent on ignoring with your rhetorical questions, is whether there is even an open debate/investigation by the Independent Panel & MPs any more.
Which, I might point out, you and Glyn W are so ably illustrating!
OK then, let's look at your three questions then:
1. Was The Bishop of Liverpool likely to put his name to a report which might conclude that even in some small way LFC fans actions may have been a factor?
2. What is the likelihood of a single MP or Senior public figure even daring to hint that LFC fans actions may have been a cause?
3. Who would volunteer to participate on The Independent Panel, knowing the vitriol they would face if they offended those demanding the inquiry?
1. The panel wasn't investigating the actions of the fans, it was investigating the investigators so that question doesn't apply.
I think I've made it pretty explicit that I'm concerned about the possibility that some actions by LFC fans may have been a contributing factor is now completely ignored due to political factors.
It depends what you mean by "contributing factor". I don't think anyone can deny that they crowded into a section that was already over-crowded. There was a lack of stewards to point them in the right direction, and human nature being what it is, they probably just took the quickest, or more favourable route.
I've just been reading some of the heartbreaking accounts of survivors. None of them say there was any trouble, or even a sudden crush from the back. It was more of a gradual build up of pressure. In fact, the saddest thing to read is how "normal" things were, until they realised that space was getting tighter and tighter. Things were still going on as normal outside their little area, people were screaming while stewards walked the perimiter and ignored them. Even more bizarrely, police were actually pushing those attempting to escape back into the pen while people were dying !
I'm not intent on ignoring anything thank you very much. You talk in riddles I'm afraid.
If the bereaved families are satisfied with the results of this report who is anyone to question it?
Seriously? The report must be correct and valid because they are satisfied with it? What happened to expecting the whole truth, even if parts of it might (and I use might deliberately) by unpalatable?
I'm not saying what the truth is - I don't know - but I am saying that there is a strong possibility that we won't get it while one view of the argument is a political taboo - for MPs, public figures, and the mass media at least.
Seriously? The report must be correct and valid because they are satisfied with it? What happened to expecting the whole truth, even if parts of it might (and I use might deliberately) by unpalatable?
I'm not saying what the truth is - I don't know - but I am saying that there is a strong possibility that we won't get it while one view of the argument is a political taboo - for MPs, public figures, and the mass media at least.
All those families wanted for 23 years was the truth and today they got it - proof that the police covered up their incompetence through lies and smeared the victims' names...so yes if the bereaved are "happy" with the report then so be it.
Like you said you don't know the truth...why "a strong possibility"?
Seriously? The report must be correct and valid because they are satisfied with it? What happened to expecting the whole truth, even if parts of it might (and I use might deliberately) by unpalatable?
I'm not saying what the truth is - I don't know - but I am saying that there is a strong possibility that we won't get it while one view of the argument is a political taboo - for MPs, public figures, and the mass media at least.
Again...the actions of the fans - or anybody else - on the day of the disaster were NOT part of the remit of the Panel so why do you keep thinking they were and somehow brushed under the carpet? The Panel wasn't looking at the causes of the disaster but looking at the investigation that took place AFTER the events of the day, so what do you think they're deliberately ignoring?
Seriously? The report must be correct and valid because they are satisfied with it? What happened to expecting the whole truth, even if parts of it might (and I use might deliberately) by unpalatable?
I'm not saying what the truth is - I don't know - but I am saying that there is a strong possibility that we won't get it while one view of the argument is a political taboo - for MPs, public figures, and the mass media at least.
Because the families and everyone educated in what happened that day, knew the truth.but were still fearful the truth would still not be disclosed.
The extent of the cover up was a shock but we knew the truth many years ago. it may be new to you and many more today that is the difference,
The cover up has been known about since the Taylor report. The blood testing for alcohol was in the news in the immediate aftermath.
Given that we knew about the cover up and the lack of medical attention , its a foregone conclusion that some people could have survived beyond 3.15. The only thing I heard new today was that a number (41) had been put on that.
There have been numerous books, reports, TV documentaries and even dramas that covered everything that was said today - apart from the number 41 AFAIR.
Maybe I've been closer to it than some.
This surprises me, too. I'm a Man. United fan yet I still knew all of these things before. Today's report has added a few things as you say, but still.
I've even argued over and over with people about it, and not just other United supporters either. For years I've argued with people so shockingly ignorant about the disaster despite all the facts already having been out there for 20 years - as you say, in books, reports, TV programmes....all of them have repeatedly stated the coroner's 3.15 cut-off point, the statements being changed, the CCTV footage going 'missing'. Now today I keep reading people saying 'well I never knew that'. Just what were these people paying attention to for 20 years? I find it incredible, to be quite honest. Talking to a bloke in the pub earlier who I'd argued with about it before, and he was all trite and humble - 'Well, we didn't know all this before'. I reminded him I'd been telling him for years!
People will just believe whatever they want, I suppose.
Anyway, well done to the justice campaign for their tireless efforts.
Just a thought, if a situation like this happened in any of the Olympic games who would be to blame?
I find cameron apology a sick and twisted way of trying to get votes from the people involved, and no doubt that mckenzie will appear on This Mornings news review soon, just so that Phillip Schofield bloke can have something to tweet about :rolleyes:
I find cameron apology a sick and twisted way of trying to get votes from the people involved, and no doubt that mckenzie will appear on This Mornings news review soon, just so that Phillip Schofield bloke can have something to tweet about :rolleyes:
Bloody hell! Cameron gets enough stick (quite rightly) for his political ineptitude and duplicity, but in this case what on earth did you expect him to do? Ignore the report completely? Fail to comment on its shocking findings? Of course, he apologised and I'm pretty damn certain that he was sincere in doing so. It didn't happen under his watch but, as Milliband pointed out, all governments since the disaster "bear their share of the responsibility for the failure to get to the truth". Repeat: THE TRUTH.
I am outraged that there are some people on here who still want to apportion some blame to the Liverpool fans. I presume most of them were very young or not born when the Hillsborough disaster happened. I can think of no other reason for their ignorance and their inexcusable comments in still trying to perpetuate the myth that the fans themselves had some responsibility for the tragedy.
The professionals who run the news channels and the newspapers would probably disagree with you - they'be been running with this supposedly non-news story all day on TV and the tomorrow's papers are full of it too. This is a massive news story so the reporting will probably continue for some time yet.
It is a massive news story ~ much more so than many realise. Not the least reason being the issue of police honesty. Always a huge question mark hanging over that, and now brought into sharp focus by this tragic episode.
As a group, it appears the police will do almost anything to protect themselves, including lies, smearing and cover ups. .
Just a thought, if a situation like this happened in any of the Olympic games who would be to blame?
I find cameron apology a sick and twisted way of trying to get votes from the people involved, and no doubt that mckenzie will appear on This Mornings news review soon, just so that Phillip Schofield bloke can have something to tweet about :rolleyes:
What should Cameron have done then ? ~ kept totally silent and ignored the report ? Or maybe acknowledge it and refuse to offer any apology ?
This surprises me, too. I'm a Man. United fan yet I still knew all of these things before. Today's report has added a few things as you say, but still.
I've even argued over and over with people about it, and not just other United supporters either. For years I've argued with people so shockingly ignorant about the disaster despite all the facts already having been out there for 20 years - as you say, in books, reports, TV programmes....all of them have repeatedly stated the coroner's 3.15 cut-off point, the statements being changed, the CCTV footage going 'missing'. Now today I keep reading people saying 'well I never knew that'. Just what were these people paying attention to for 20 years? I find it incredible, to be quite honest. Talking to a bloke in the pub earlier who I'd argued with about it before, and he was all trite and humble - 'Well, we didn't know all this before'. I reminded him I'd been telling him for years!
People will just believe whatever they want, I suppose.
Anyway, well done to the justice campaign for their tireless efforts.
re BIB above: CCTV footage inconvenient to the police, often seems to mysteriously disappear......Odd, really.
Read through parts of this thread and seen a lot of comments about Liverpool fans being blamed for the massive crush outside the turnstiles hence the police opening the gates to let them in. There was a major accident on the motorway that day, a lot of people turned up late as a consequence, not only that, the year before when Liverpool played Notts Forest at Hillsborough the Police had a system in place where they put people into queues and checked their tickets several times. The Police Chief Duckenfield had no experience of dealing with such a big match and therefore got several things completely wrong. The Police had camera's focused on the turnstiles, they would have seen the build up of people, they COULD have started to form queues or stopped people from coming near the turnstiles until the backlog had cleared but they didn't. Duckenfield froze and panicked, he did not know what to do so he let the situation continue until there was no other option but to open the gates to allow supporters inside.
Other points made on this thread such as 'Why did the fans not go to the pens at the side?'. Well, the first entrance they would have seen when entering the ground was the entrance to the middle pen. Signs for the two relatively empty pens at the sides were tiny, the Police should have blocked the entrance to the middle pen and had people directing the fans to the two pens either side of the goal but they didn't. Also, to people asking why the fans didn't turn back when they realised how full the middle pens were, they couldn't turn back! So many people were behind them, a lot of people even said how they were literally swept off their feet and carried down the tunnel due to the amount of people coming in behind them.
As for the comments about football fans being like animals, I just find it disgusting. My mother travelled throughout the seventies and eighties with our football team and it was a minority of people who caused trouble but the Police, and the media, made out like ALL football fans were scum of the earth. She was put into situations where she was nearly crushed, she dealt with many police officers who did not want to listen to her, one even used a batton on her as she tried to seek medical help for a friend who'd been hit with a coin above her eye and was bleeding everywhere.
The families have conducted themselves with grace and dignity throughout the years, the first inquest which established a verdict of 'accidental death' now needs to be overturned as it has been proved by these documents that this disaster was no accident. The Police saw what was happening every step of the way and they failed to take control of the situation, they failed every single fan that was there that day and still people are trying to claim that the fault lies with Liverpool fans. This is not about money, this is about clearing the names of loved ones, the youngest of whom was ten years old, they went to a football match and never came home. I've been to hundreds of football matches and I could never imagine dying in one, it's thanks to the families of Hillsborough that grounds are now safer, I can only hope they get the justice that they deserve after a long 23 years of fighting for it.
Sorry, late to this discussion. Can someone explain something to me. The reports that "fans urinated on the dead" etc, picked up by the Sheffield news agency. Where did they come from exactly - I mean, do we have a name? And if so, has that named person spoken out about what they really said/meant and/or why they said it?
White’s News Agency and the ‘authenticity’ of the story
2.12.88 In the wake of public outrage that followed the publication of the allegations and the lack of substantiating evidence from independent witnesses or CCTV coverage, White’s News Agency was under considerable pressure to confirm its sources.
However, the ‘first claims of bad behaviour came on the night of Saturday April 15th a few hours after the tragedy when one reporter met by chance a senior police officer he has known for many years’:Without prompting the officer told him he had been punched and urinated on as he tried to save a dying victim at Hillsborough.
The following day there was another chance meeting with [sic] second officer who again without prompting said he had seen some fans behaving badly including attacking police and urinating on officers. White’s noted: ‘At this stage we felt it was not enough confirmation to send a story making such serious claims’.
This changed on Monday 17 April when ‘another reporter met a third officer who volunteered information and reiterated similar stories saying he had seen police attacked and had been told of fans urinating down the terraces as police pulled away the dead and injured’. The third interview gave White’s corroboration and confidence to file the initial story on the morning of 18
Later in the day, however, ‘a third reporter met a fourth officer he has known for many years who repeated the allegations and added that Liverpool supporters had been stealing from the dead’. This officer ‘had not seen it [stealing] personally’ yet ‘despite fingertip searches of the terracing a lot of personal property belonging to the dead was missing and other
Further quotes were sent in a later story after we spoke to the Tory MP for Sheffield Hallam Irvine Patnick. He said he had spoken to police officers on Saturday night who said they had been attacked and urinated on. He had not volunteered the information previously because he felt it would inflame a very sensitive situation.2.12.95 White’s stated that they had ‘watered down’ allegations ‘which included a report to us that Liverpool fans, seeing the uncovered breasts of a dead girl shouted “pass her over here and we’ll f... [sic] her”
I don't understand how and why three police officers would say these things? Who were they, have they been identified and do posters suggest they were cohearsed into saying these things by SY Police?
White’s News Agency and the ‘authenticity’ of the story
I don't understand how and why three police officers would say these things? Who were they, have they been identified and do posters suggest they were cohearsed into saying these things by SY Police?
For the same reasons they doctored 116 of 164 police statements.
For the same reasons they carried out blood tests on the dead (inc children).
For the same reasons they carried out criminal record checks on the dead.
Comments
I'm not intent on ignoring anything thank you very much. You talk in riddles I'm afraid.
If the bereaved families are satisfied with the results of this report who is anyone to question it?
The professionals who run the news channels and the newspapers would probably disagree with you - they'be been running with this supposedly non-news story all day on TV and the tomorrow's papers are full of it too. This is a massive news story so the reporting will probably continue for some time yet.
I often think, it's a good job the fans were so good that day for another reason, it would have given all the people trying to save their skins and the mud slingers ammunition.
going back even just a couple of years ago it was the same old slurs, now the slurs have got less and less,
the accusations less outrageous, now we are down to slurs that are down to opinion,just insults really.
OK then, let's look at your three questions then:
1. Was The Bishop of Liverpool likely to put his name to a report which might conclude that even in some small way LFC fans actions may have been a factor?
2. What is the likelihood of a single MP or Senior public figure even daring to hint that LFC fans actions may have been a cause?
3. Who would volunteer to participate on The Independent Panel, knowing the vitriol they would face if they offended those demanding the inquiry?
1. The panel wasn't investigating the actions of the fans, it was investigating the investigators so that question doesn't apply.
2. See answer above.
3. See answer above.
Going to answer my question now?
It depends what you mean by "contributing factor". I don't think anyone can deny that they crowded into a section that was already over-crowded. There was a lack of stewards to point them in the right direction, and human nature being what it is, they probably just took the quickest, or more favourable route.
I've just been reading some of the heartbreaking accounts of survivors. None of them say there was any trouble, or even a sudden crush from the back. It was more of a gradual build up of pressure. In fact, the saddest thing to read is how "normal" things were, until they realised that space was getting tighter and tighter. Things were still going on as normal outside their little area, people were screaming while stewards walked the perimiter and ignored them. Even more bizarrely, police were actually pushing those attempting to escape back into the pen while people were dying !
Seriously? The report must be correct and valid because they are satisfied with it? What happened to expecting the whole truth, even if parts of it might (and I use might deliberately) by unpalatable?
I'm not saying what the truth is - I don't know - but I am saying that there is a strong possibility that we won't get it while one view of the argument is a political taboo - for MPs, public figures, and the mass media at least.
Yep, I'm sure there's a lot more to come out yet.
Not everyone will be interested or will consider it newsworthy of course - I suppose they can always get over it and move on.
All those families wanted for 23 years was the truth and today they got it - proof that the police covered up their incompetence through lies and smeared the victims' names...so yes if the bereaved are "happy" with the report then so be it.
Like you said you don't know the truth...why "a strong possibility"?
Again...the actions of the fans - or anybody else - on the day of the disaster were NOT part of the remit of the Panel so why do you keep thinking they were and somehow brushed under the carpet? The Panel wasn't looking at the causes of the disaster but looking at the investigation that took place AFTER the events of the day, so what do you think they're deliberately ignoring?
The extent of the cover up was a shock but we knew the truth many years ago. it may be new to you and many more today that is the difference,
This surprises me, too. I'm a Man. United fan yet I still knew all of these things before. Today's report has added a few things as you say, but still.
I've even argued over and over with people about it, and not just other United supporters either. For years I've argued with people so shockingly ignorant about the disaster despite all the facts already having been out there for 20 years - as you say, in books, reports, TV programmes....all of them have repeatedly stated the coroner's 3.15 cut-off point, the statements being changed, the CCTV footage going 'missing'. Now today I keep reading people saying 'well I never knew that'. Just what were these people paying attention to for 20 years? I find it incredible, to be quite honest. Talking to a bloke in the pub earlier who I'd argued with about it before, and he was all trite and humble - 'Well, we didn't know all this before'. I reminded him I'd been telling him for years!
People will just believe whatever they want, I suppose.
Anyway, well done to the justice campaign for their tireless efforts.
I find cameron apology a sick and twisted way of trying to get votes from the people involved, and no doubt that mckenzie will appear on This Mornings news review soon, just so that Phillip Schofield bloke can have something to tweet about :rolleyes:
Bloody hell! Cameron gets enough stick (quite rightly) for his political ineptitude and duplicity, but in this case what on earth did you expect him to do? Ignore the report completely? Fail to comment on its shocking findings? Of course, he apologised and I'm pretty damn certain that he was sincere in doing so. It didn't happen under his watch but, as Milliband pointed out, all governments since the disaster "bear their share of the responsibility for the failure to get to the truth". Repeat: THE TRUTH.
I am outraged that there are some people on here who still want to apportion some blame to the Liverpool fans. I presume most of them were very young or not born when the Hillsborough disaster happened. I can think of no other reason for their ignorance and their inexcusable comments in still trying to perpetuate the myth that the fans themselves had some responsibility for the tragedy.
This was a very serious and hurtful allegation though that has been proved incorrect and shows up the police ofcourse badly again.
Its a small comfort given they wil be grieving forever but least the families have got some kind of justice.
It is a massive news story ~ much more so than many realise. Not the least reason being the issue of police honesty. Always a huge question mark hanging over that, and now brought into sharp focus by this tragic episode.
As a group, it appears the police will do almost anything to protect themselves, including lies, smearing and cover ups. .
What should Cameron have done then ? ~ kept totally silent and ignored the report ? Or maybe acknowledge it and refuse to offer any apology ?
Sorry, but you're talking shite.
re BIB above: CCTV footage inconvenient to the police, often seems to mysteriously disappear......Odd, really.
Well, no, not odd or a co-incidence.
Other points made on this thread such as 'Why did the fans not go to the pens at the side?'. Well, the first entrance they would have seen when entering the ground was the entrance to the middle pen. Signs for the two relatively empty pens at the sides were tiny, the Police should have blocked the entrance to the middle pen and had people directing the fans to the two pens either side of the goal but they didn't. Also, to people asking why the fans didn't turn back when they realised how full the middle pens were, they couldn't turn back! So many people were behind them, a lot of people even said how they were literally swept off their feet and carried down the tunnel due to the amount of people coming in behind them.
As for the comments about football fans being like animals, I just find it disgusting. My mother travelled throughout the seventies and eighties with our football team and it was a minority of people who caused trouble but the Police, and the media, made out like ALL football fans were scum of the earth. She was put into situations where she was nearly crushed, she dealt with many police officers who did not want to listen to her, one even used a batton on her as she tried to seek medical help for a friend who'd been hit with a coin above her eye and was bleeding everywhere.
The families have conducted themselves with grace and dignity throughout the years, the first inquest which established a verdict of 'accidental death' now needs to be overturned as it has been proved by these documents that this disaster was no accident. The Police saw what was happening every step of the way and they failed to take control of the situation, they failed every single fan that was there that day and still people are trying to claim that the fault lies with Liverpool fans. This is not about money, this is about clearing the names of loved ones, the youngest of whom was ten years old, they went to a football match and never came home. I've been to hundreds of football matches and I could never imagine dying in one, it's thanks to the families of Hillsborough that grounds are now safer, I can only hope they get the justice that they deserve after a long 23 years of fighting for it.
RIP to the 96, YNWA x
Well said, that was very well written. I couldn't have said it better.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/sep/12/hillsborough-report-contempt-coverup-editorial
2.12.88 In the wake of public outrage that followed the publication of the allegations and the lack of substantiating evidence from independent witnesses or CCTV coverage, White’s News Agency was under considerable pressure to confirm its sources.
However, the ‘first claims of bad behaviour came on the night of Saturday April 15th a few hours after the tragedy when one reporter met by chance a senior police officer he has known for many years’:Without prompting the officer told him he had been punched and urinated on as he tried to save a dying victim at Hillsborough.
The following day there was another chance meeting with [sic] second officer who again without prompting said he had seen some fans behaving badly including attacking police and urinating on officers. White’s noted: ‘At this stage we felt it was not enough confirmation to send a story making such serious claims’.
This changed on Monday 17 April when ‘another reporter met a third officer who volunteered information and reiterated similar stories saying he had seen police attacked and had been told of fans urinating down the terraces as police pulled away the dead and injured’. The third interview gave White’s corroboration and confidence to file the initial story on the morning of 18
Later in the day, however, ‘a third reporter met a fourth officer he has known for many years who repeated the allegations and added that Liverpool supporters had been stealing from the dead’. This officer ‘had not seen it [stealing] personally’ yet ‘despite fingertip searches of the terracing a lot of personal property belonging to the dead was missing and other
Further quotes were sent in a later story after we spoke to the Tory MP for Sheffield Hallam Irvine Patnick. He said he had spoken to police officers on Saturday night who said they had been attacked and urinated on. He had not volunteered the information previously because he felt it would inflame a very sensitive situation.2.12.95 White’s stated that they had ‘watered down’ allegations ‘which included a report to us that Liverpool fans, seeing the uncovered breasts of a dead girl shouted “pass her over here and we’ll f... [sic] her”
I don't understand how and why three police officers would say these things? Who were they, have they been identified and do posters suggest they were cohearsed into saying these things by SY Police?
For the same reasons they doctored 116 of 164 police statements.
For the same reasons they carried out blood tests on the dead (inc children).
For the same reasons they carried out criminal record checks on the dead.