Will you be using the UK episode titles or the US titles or both?
For the Portwenn Survivor I grabbed the titles from Wikipedia - and I believe they are the America titles. When we do the meanings, if there are two different titles I will list them both and people can respond to either one or both.
For the Portwenn Survivor I grabbed the titles from Wikipedia - and I believe they are the America titles. When we do the meanings, if there are two different titles I will list them both and people can respond to either one or both.
That being said, I think it is entirely reasonable for Lousia to recall some, at a minimum, of her conversation with Martin, although she was giddy and groggy. If she can properly make it all fit together is another thing...
I find it hard to believe that Martin was talking just to hear himself talk, so I think WE are meant to think that he at least hoped that some of it would get through to her. But as you say, she may not have processed it yet.
Else why say "nothing's changed" when he's just told her that he acknowledges the need to change and that he wants to change. Msybe that reaction is "nothing's changed YET; so far it's just words, we're not going back together until something actually HAS changed."
I don't think "cold" is the right word for Louisa; she seemed almost as sad as he was when they parted. I don't exactly know what a good description would be at this point.
I find it hard to believe that Martin was talking just to hear himself talk, so I think WE are meant to think that he at least hoped that some of it would get through to her. But as you say, she may not have processed it yet.
Else why say "nothing's changed" when he's just told her that he acknowledges the need to change and that he wants to change. Msybe that reaction is "nothing's changed YET; so far it's just words, we're not going back together until something actually HAS changed."
I don't think "cold" is the right word for Louisa; she seemed almost as sad as he was when they parted. I don't exactly know what a good description would be at this point.
My experience with the 6 or so surgeries that I have had is that once I feel that premed go into my vein, within seconds, I'm totally gone. I've not asked if I looked awake or talked but it might be interesting to know, so everyone's experience is different. I think the Doc talked to Louisa in that state purposely, because in his mental condition and with his personality he is unable to tell her those things...it would be impossible for sober Doc Martin to say that. Whether she heard or remembered? I sure has heck wouldn't have but everyone's experience is different.
Isn't it cool that this program is so well structured and challengingly put together that we can continue to debate this issue? It's too much fun.
Shop Girl, I appreciate the fun you are providing us. Thanks so much. But picking one episode over another is going to be really hard.
Thank heaven I only have one son!
And it seems only Series 3 had different American titles.
Oh I know! I'll be playing along too and after the first few weeks I know I will be struggling. I'm thinking about going down the list and grading them and then trying to sort them out.
I am the last person to believe that what people do makes logical sense even most of the time...:);-) and I totally agree that his behavior at Sports Day was out-of-control, all defenses down. I think that Mum's remark may have been the final straw that let the dam burst on all that pent-up rage and resentment. I still think he was "sort-of" OK after Louisa left the house, when she had given him yet another chance to back out. That said, knowing that he really didn't want to do it, she should have told him in advance that he was going to have to give a speech, etc.
What I really fault Louisa for, though softening a bit, is in NOT recognizing how out-of-control he was, and that something major and bad was happening to him. Leaving for Spain at that point was like fleeing the scene of a major accident -- hers real, his metaphorical.
Yes she gave him a few opportunities to opt out of the sports day trophy giving but I really can't forgive her for not warning him that he has to give a speech and then for not being able to take over, faultlessly, when she realised it was beyond him, at that time.
As a physician, even in the real world, I don't believe Martin's caper would have ended his career. I don't think he did anything illegal. With as skillful and respected as he is, he would face a board inquiry and probably be suspended for a period of time....not finished his right to be a surgeon. Most losing licensure has to do with competency and quality of care to patients. Even Docs addicted to heroin at one time get to continue their career after a time.
Add in a little Port Wenn effect and the whole incident is a big nothingburger (a medical term).
I agree with whomever said that getting treatment for his mental issues will help him alleviate his blood phobia and enable him to have choices in what he does. Martin loves "putting things back together when they are broken". He's a brilliant GP, but his true love and fulfillment comes through surgery and I believe he will do that again...full time, part time, in some way shape or form. You just have to check out his face and attitude when he interviewed at Imperial. Different man, keen to go...he almost smiled.
Totally agree with mofromco.
They don't throw well respected extremely successful surgeons on the rubbish pile without a string of very good reasons. In real life it is astounding what surgeons can get away with - this little episode was nothing.
I find it hard to believe that Martin was talking just to hear himself talk, so I think WE are meant to think that he at least hoped that some of it would get through to her. But as you say, she may not have processed it yet.
Else why say "nothing's changed" when he's just told her that he acknowledges the need to change and that he wants to change. Msybe that reaction is "nothing's changed YET; so far it's just words, we're not going back together until something actually HAS changed."
I don't think "cold" is the right word for Louisa; she seemed almost as sad as he was when they parted. I don't exactly know what a good description would be at this point.
I think the big difference here is pre-med and just a simple general anesthetic. THe pre-med (if you have one and I never have one, anymore after experiencing the horror of it) can make you very groggy.
Regardless of that debate I think the reason for that scene was to have DM show us the audience that he intends to fight for LG. Without that scene we would have a totally unresolved, depressing ep that didn't allow room for hope in s7.
Oh I know! I'll be playing along too and after the first few weeks I know I will be struggling. I'm thinking about going down the list and grading them and then trying to sort them out.
Sorry to spoil your fun shopgirl, But I couldn't list all the episodes in order of preference. I could do the top three and the bottom three OR the top two per series, but that's about it, sorry. :(:(
Sorry. Based on your post saying that you had on somewhat good word that there was two weeks between episodes rather than a day or two, it sounded as if you had the good word from a writer or producer who would have understood the sequence of the episodes.
Totally agree with mofromco.
They don't throw well respected extremely successful surgeons on the rubbish pile without a string of very good reasons. In real life it is astounding what surgeons can get away with - this little episode was nothing.
No one threw Martin on the rubbish pile of London medicine. It seems he elected not to treat his blood phobia then just as he elected not to treat his depression until Aunt Ruth told him he had a problem and Louisa left him again.
Even at 50 he could probably get through enough therapy and retraining to return to surgery by 50 or 51. But many surgical careers end at 60. He could then teach into emeritus status. So maybe his surgical career doesn't have to be over, but I do not believe he will return to it
Yes she gave him a few opportunities to opt out of the sports day trophy giving but I really can't forgive her for not warning him that he has to give a speech and then for not being able to take over, faultlessly, when she realised it was beyond him, at that time.
I forgive Louisa for most of her behavior in series 6. She was dealing with a supposedly brilliant physician who refused to recognize his clear signs of depression. When he cut his hand, he went to Truro for stitches. When he had the lurky, he took medicine. He bought medicine for his personal account from Mrs Tishell
But serious, life altering depression? Let my his new wife just deal with it because he's not going to Seek help. Doubly bad on his part is that he tried to treat his blood phobia on his own and it didn't work.
I get that we needed the drama of 8 episodes, and I loved every minute of the unfolding drama
I forgive Louisa for most of her behavior in series 6. She was dealing with a supposedly brilliant physician who refused to recognize his clear signs of depression. When he cut his hand, he went to Truro for stitches. When he had the lurky, he took medicine. He bought medicine for his personal account from Mrs Tishell
But serious, life altering depression? Let my his new wife just deal with it because he's not going to Seek help. Doubly bad on his part is that he tried to treat his blood phobia on his own and it didn't work.
I get that we needed the drama of 8 episodes, and I loved every minute of the unfolding drama
Sadly, it's not at all uncommon for people to not recognize that they are depressed, or to refuse at some level to acknowledge it. Much easier to believe that there's some physical problem. And perhaps a surgeon, known "jocks" of the medical profession, are less likely to think of psychological explanations for physical pheneomena, and think they should tough it out. So I can buy that seeking treatment for depression wouldn't have occurred to him.
Actually, just like "cancer" is too general a word, I think "depression" is too general a word. He does have a lot of symptoms of depression (and I agree with you that loss of libido is probably going on here) but it also looks like anxiety, or "decompensation" which basically means inability to keep up standard defenses. Sooner or later, the whole DSM diagnosing thing is going to go away, I think. Because it's just too iffy.
No one threw Martin on the rubbish pile of London medicine. It seems he elected not to treat his blood phobia then just as he elected not to treat his depression until Aunt Ruth told him he had a problem and Louisa left him again.
Even at 50 he could probably get through enough therapy and retraining to return to surgery by 50 or 51. But many surgical careers end at 60. He could then teach into emeritus status. So maybe his surgical career doesn't have to be over, but I do not believe he will return to it
Boy, when I practiced Pediatrics in Denver, Colorado for all those years, probably half the surgeons were in their fifties and showing no signs of slowing down. It would be hard for me to believe that most surgeons end their career at 60. Maybe you read or heard that information from a resource from the early 1900's. It takes that long a time to really get skillful and have a bucketful of cases under your belt. Older surgeons were always much nicer too....usually.....so we always looked forward to them coming to the ICU or the ward because they always had something to teach and no longer treat us as peons.....though most of my fellow female Pediatricians could sling it as well as the younger surgeons did and didn't tolerate their bullshit.
Perhaps Martin won't return to it, but it truly makes him happy...fixing things with his hands....only S7 will tell.
Sadly, it's not at all uncommon for people to not recognize that they are depressed, or to refuse at some level to acknowledge it. Much easier to believe that there's some physical problem. And perhaps a surgeon, known "jocks" of the medical profession, are less likely to think of psychological explanations for physical pheneomena, and think they should tough it out. So I can buy that seeking treatment for depression wouldn't have occurred to him.
Actually, just like "cancer" is too general a word, I think "depression" is too general a word. He does have a lot of symptoms of depression (and I agree with you that loss of libido is probably going on here) but it also looks like anxiety, or "decompensation" which basically means inability to keep up standard defenses. Sooner or later, the whole DSM diagnosing thing is going to go away, I think. Because it's just too iffy.
Agree, NewPark...not being a psych professional, I am at a loss to make a "diagnosis". I don't even know if he has organic mental illness. His mentaltion and the behavior defects that he displays or emotions that he has repressed or is unable to express in themselves could be causing situational depression. But, given a chance to understand and alter those, he may be ok. There are such things as behavioral disorders, aren't they?
I think Martin is a little bit Aspie (Aspergers' Syndrome), not mentally ill as such. Obviously he gets depressed at times, he doesn't really understand why people don't appreciate his straightforward style, cannot see the world as others see it. His love for Louisa is real enough but people with Aspergers are notriously bad at relationships.
Seeing the discussion of Martin's surgical career raises this question. It has been anywhere from 18 months to 5 years since Martin left surgery came to Portwenn as a GP. Do you think he considers himself a surgeon or a GP? Do you consider him a surgeon or a GP?
Seeing the discussion of Martin's surgical career raises this question. It has been anywhere from 18 months to 5 years since Martin left surgery came to Portwenn as a GP. Do you think he considers himself a surgeon or a GP? Do you consider him a surgeon or a GP?
He is a surgeon, through and through. His love is putting things back together when they're broken, no ifs, ands or buts. Some people do aspire to be a GP...but it's a totally different personality type. I'd love to see Mr. Ellingham again.....and I dare say, if Louisa gets a chance to be with him in that circumstance, she will not disagree.
Yes she gave him a few opportunities to opt out of the sports day trophy giving but I really can't forgive her for not warning him that he has to give a speech and then for not being able to take over, faultlessly, when she realised it was beyond him, at that time.
I agree, cc.cookie. Louisa's behavior in wanting her students to have the best was understandable and true. But her lack of taking over and "faultlessly" winging it for her students was very un-teacher-like in my experience, especially right in front of them.
I've re-watched and replayed in my mind, and no matter what was going on at home -- Martin's behavior, his Mum -- her behavior in front of the kids was just not on.
Seeing the discussion of Martin's surgical career raises this question. It has been anywhere from 18 months to 5 years since Martin left surgery came to Portwenn as a GP. Do you think he considers himself a surgeon or a GP? Do you consider him a surgeon or a GP?
Question 1. I think Martin considers himself a surgeon still but a bit of a failure because he can't do it without hurling. He knows he's a GP in his head, but probably a bit ashamed in his heart as it was a fall-back position. He manages his professional life with a definite integrity despite his feelings.
Question 2. I think he's both, as he hasn't forgotten his skills from surgery as depicted in the series (nor would it make sense in real life), but he has pretty successfully added the skills of a GP to his repertoire, perhaps only lacking the bedside manner at times.
Question 1. I think Martin considers himself a surgeon still but a bit of a failure because he can't do it without hurling. He knows he's a GP in his head, but probably a bit ashamed in his heart as it was a fall-back position. He manages his professional life with a definite integrity despite his feelings.
Question 2. I think he's both, as he hasn't forgotten his skills from surgery as depicted in the series (nor would it make sense in real life), but he has pretty successfully added the skills of a GP to his repertoire, perhaps only lacking the bedside manner at times.
Any MD with a rotating internship can be a GP. To compare the skills required to be a GP versus those that are required to be an elite surgeon are like light years different. A good, smart GP is always an asset and great to find but doesn't compare to the hand skills and training that go into being an elite surgeon. Throughout my training I was commended for having "good hands". However, I didn't have the degree of dedication and selflessness it took to be a great surgeon...I wanted children and an outside life. It is different for a man. Every Doc has GP skills...only some have the dedication to do surgery. Martin is a surgeon, through and through.
Any MD with a rotating internship can be a GP. To compare the skills required to be a GP versus those that are required to be an elite surgeon are like light years different. A good, smart GP is always an asset and great to find but doesn't compare to the hand skills and training that go into being an elite surgeon. Throughout my training I was commended for having "good hands". However, I didn't have the degree of dedication and selflessness it took to be a great surgeon...I wanted children and an outside life. It is different for a man. Every Doc has GP skills...only some have the dedication to do surgery. Martin is a surgeon, through and through.
Thanks for your point of view, Mofromco.
I thought it was a poignant moment when, in S4E7, he was checking into the conference hotel that Edith lured him to, the receptionist referred to him as "Mr." Ellingham, and he corrected her to "Dr." Ellingham. (In England, surgeons are traditionally called Mr., as opposed to Dr.)
I thought it was a poignant moment when, in S4E7, he was checking into the conference hotel that Edith lured him to, the receptionist referred to him as "Mr." Ellingham, and he corrected her to "Dr." Ellingham. (In England, surgeons are traditionally called Mr., as opposed to Dr.)
Comments
For the Portwenn Survivor I grabbed the titles from Wikipedia - and I believe they are the America titles. When we do the meanings, if there are two different titles I will list them both and people can respond to either one or both.
Oops - I take that back - they are the UK titles.
I find it hard to believe that Martin was talking just to hear himself talk, so I think WE are meant to think that he at least hoped that some of it would get through to her. But as you say, she may not have processed it yet.
Else why say "nothing's changed" when he's just told her that he acknowledges the need to change and that he wants to change. Msybe that reaction is "nothing's changed YET; so far it's just words, we're not going back together until something actually HAS changed."
I don't think "cold" is the right word for Louisa; she seemed almost as sad as he was when they parted. I don't exactly know what a good description would be at this point.
My experience with the 6 or so surgeries that I have had is that once I feel that premed go into my vein, within seconds, I'm totally gone. I've not asked if I looked awake or talked but it might be interesting to know, so everyone's experience is different. I think the Doc talked to Louisa in that state purposely, because in his mental condition and with his personality he is unable to tell her those things...it would be impossible for sober Doc Martin to say that. Whether she heard or remembered? I sure has heck wouldn't have but everyone's experience is different.
Isn't it cool that this program is so well structured and challengingly put together that we can continue to debate this issue? It's too much fun.
Never met the man, and that is truth.
Thank heaven I only have one son!
And it seems only Series 3 had different American titles.
Oh I know! I'll be playing along too and after the first few weeks I know I will be struggling. I'm thinking about going down the list and grading them and then trying to sort them out.
Yes she gave him a few opportunities to opt out of the sports day trophy giving but I really can't forgive her for not warning him that he has to give a speech and then for not being able to take over, faultlessly, when she realised it was beyond him, at that time.
Totally agree with mofromco.
They don't throw well respected extremely successful surgeons on the rubbish pile without a string of very good reasons. In real life it is astounding what surgeons can get away with - this little episode was nothing.
I think the big difference here is pre-med and just a simple general anesthetic. THe pre-med (if you have one and I never have one, anymore after experiencing the horror of it) can make you very groggy.
Regardless of that debate I think the reason for that scene was to have DM show us the audience that he intends to fight for LG. Without that scene we would have a totally unresolved, depressing ep that didn't allow room for hope in s7.
Sorry to spoil your fun shopgirl, But I couldn't list all the episodes in order of preference. I could do the top three and the bottom three OR the top two per series, but that's about it, sorry.
Sorry. Based on your post saying that you had on somewhat good word that there was two weeks between episodes rather than a day or two, it sounded as if you had the good word from a writer or producer who would have understood the sequence of the episodes.
No one threw Martin on the rubbish pile of London medicine. It seems he elected not to treat his blood phobia then just as he elected not to treat his depression until Aunt Ruth told him he had a problem and Louisa left him again.
Even at 50 he could probably get through enough therapy and retraining to return to surgery by 50 or 51. But many surgical careers end at 60. He could then teach into emeritus status. So maybe his surgical career doesn't have to be over, but I do not believe he will return to it
I forgive Louisa for most of her behavior in series 6. She was dealing with a supposedly brilliant physician who refused to recognize his clear signs of depression. When he cut his hand, he went to Truro for stitches. When he had the lurky, he took medicine. He bought medicine for his personal account from Mrs Tishell
But serious, life altering depression? Let my his new wife just deal with it because he's not going to Seek help. Doubly bad on his part is that he tried to treat his blood phobia on his own and it didn't work.
I get that we needed the drama of 8 episodes, and I loved every minute of the unfolding drama
Sadly, it's not at all uncommon for people to not recognize that they are depressed, or to refuse at some level to acknowledge it. Much easier to believe that there's some physical problem. And perhaps a surgeon, known "jocks" of the medical profession, are less likely to think of psychological explanations for physical pheneomena, and think they should tough it out. So I can buy that seeking treatment for depression wouldn't have occurred to him.
Actually, just like "cancer" is too general a word, I think "depression" is too general a word. He does have a lot of symptoms of depression (and I agree with you that loss of libido is probably going on here) but it also looks like anxiety, or "decompensation" which basically means inability to keep up standard defenses. Sooner or later, the whole DSM diagnosing thing is going to go away, I think. Because it's just too iffy.
Boy, when I practiced Pediatrics in Denver, Colorado for all those years, probably half the surgeons were in their fifties and showing no signs of slowing down. It would be hard for me to believe that most surgeons end their career at 60. Maybe you read or heard that information from a resource from the early 1900's. It takes that long a time to really get skillful and have a bucketful of cases under your belt. Older surgeons were always much nicer too....usually.....so we always looked forward to them coming to the ICU or the ward because they always had something to teach and no longer treat us as peons.....though most of my fellow female Pediatricians could sling it as well as the younger surgeons did and didn't tolerate their bullshit.
Perhaps Martin won't return to it, but it truly makes him happy...fixing things with his hands....only S7 will tell.
Agree, NewPark...not being a psych professional, I am at a loss to make a "diagnosis". I don't even know if he has organic mental illness. His mentaltion and the behavior defects that he displays or emotions that he has repressed or is unable to express in themselves could be causing situational depression. But, given a chance to understand and alter those, he may be ok. There are such things as behavioral disorders, aren't they?
I am looking forward to a new series.
He is a surgeon, through and through. His love is putting things back together when they're broken, no ifs, ands or buts. Some people do aspire to be a GP...but it's a totally different personality type. I'd love to see Mr. Ellingham again.....and I dare say, if Louisa gets a chance to be with him in that circumstance, she will not disagree.
I agree, cc.cookie. Louisa's behavior in wanting her students to have the best was understandable and true. But her lack of taking over and "faultlessly" winging it for her students was very un-teacher-like in my experience, especially right in front of them.
I've re-watched and replayed in my mind, and no matter what was going on at home -- Martin's behavior, his Mum -- her behavior in front of the kids was just not on.
Question 1. I think Martin considers himself a surgeon still but a bit of a failure because he can't do it without hurling. He knows he's a GP in his head, but probably a bit ashamed in his heart as it was a fall-back position. He manages his professional life with a definite integrity despite his feelings.
Question 2. I think he's both, as he hasn't forgotten his skills from surgery as depicted in the series (nor would it make sense in real life), but he has pretty successfully added the skills of a GP to his repertoire, perhaps only lacking the bedside manner at times.
Any MD with a rotating internship can be a GP. To compare the skills required to be a GP versus those that are required to be an elite surgeon are like light years different. A good, smart GP is always an asset and great to find but doesn't compare to the hand skills and training that go into being an elite surgeon. Throughout my training I was commended for having "good hands". However, I didn't have the degree of dedication and selflessness it took to be a great surgeon...I wanted children and an outside life. It is different for a man. Every Doc has GP skills...only some have the dedication to do surgery. Martin is a surgeon, through and through.
Thanks for your point of view, Mofromco.
I thought it was a poignant moment when, in S4E7, he was checking into the conference hotel that Edith lured him to, the receptionist referred to him as "Mr." Ellingham, and he corrected her to "Dr." Ellingham. (In England, surgeons are traditionally called Mr., as opposed to Dr.)
It was a humbling moment.....