But getting back to the original question - were the IRA a necessity of their time? - Without IRA you might not have got the equality we see today.
Of course we'll never know for certain, as we don't have a PIRA-free alternative NI to act as a control group, to compare against.
However, as there have been great changes, socially and politically, across a whole range of issues over the last 50 or so years, eg gay rights, discrimination laws, etc, I'm inclined to think that changes could have been achieved by peaceful means.
Of course we'll never know for certain, as we don't have a PIRA-free alternative NI to act as a control group, to compare against.
However, as there have been great changes, socially and politically, across a whole range of issues over the last 50 or so years, eg gay rights, discrimination laws, etc, I'm inclined to think that changes could have been achieved by peaceful means.
I totally agree with you, we have seen some wonderful change politically and socially in the last few decades - even take Anglo Irish relations, there never was a generation who lived such through such an excellent friendly relationship.
I suppose it could be argued that there was a non IRA Northern Ireland for the most between 1922-1969 - politics/dialogue never worked... Was the IRA inevitable in that situation?
1965 was the year democracy and dialogue should and could have worked, the meeting between the two dynamic, forward thinking Irish/N.Irish leaders - Lemass and O'Neill. That handshake was one of the greatest lost opportunities on the island. It was seen down south as the way forward, celebrated hugely but staunch northern Loyalists prevented friendship - for that loyalists must take a lot of the blame for the re-emergence of the IRA IMO.
I think the PIRA were a necessity in the early 70s, because after atrocities like the burning of Bombay Street and the complete unwillingness of the security forces to enforce the law, the nationalist community had to take the law into their own hands to protect themselves.
Where the IRA went wrong is that they didn't stick to that remit of protecting their own community, and in fact ended up visiting the same misery on other communities that they'd started out fighting against. Of course, it all could have been avoided if better decisions had been taken by the British government back in 1922. Either they shouldn't have partitioned Ireland at all, or if they were going to partition it they should have imposed direct rule straight away.
What they did gave Britain and Ireland the worst of both worlds - a part of Ireland still in the UK, where the buck would ultimately stop with the British government if things went wrong, without imposing enough control to ensure that things didn't go wrong.
"Protecting the peace". What sort of joke is that?
They were terrorists who killed many innocent people, and many found they enjoyed the power being in such a group brought them, and such characters are still there today.
Whatever wrongs were done in history did not justify the formation of all these groups of people who went on to believe they had the right to dish out violence for whatever their cause was.
Today it is even more wrong for such groups to exist, but they like that power.
The Provisional IRA weren't formed because of wrongs that were done in history though, they were formed because of wrongs that were being done at the time of their formation.
The Provisional IRA weren't formed because of wrongs that were done in history though, they were formed because of wrongs that were being done at the time of their formation.
And their formation, and actions were another, massive, wrong. It ensured that violence escalated, and many more people died. They still are causing misery to this day too, although not on the same scale.
I think the PIRA were a necessity in the early 70s, because after atrocities like the burning of Bombay Street and the complete unwillingness of the security forces to enforce the law, the nationalist community had to take the law into their own hands to protect themselves.
Where the IRA went wrong is that they didn't stick to that remit of protecting their own community, and in fact ended up visiting the same misery on other communities that they'd started out fighting against. Of course, it all could have been avoided if better decisions had been taken by the British government back in 1922. Either they shouldn't have partitioned Ireland at all, or if they were going to partition it they should have imposed direct rule straight away.
What they did gave Britain and Ireland the worst of both worlds - a part of Ireland still in the UK, where the buck would ultimately stop with the British government if things went wrong, without imposing enough control to ensure that things didn't go wrong.
In all honestly, I could not argue with anything in that post - that would be the opinion of most down south I would imagine.
The IRA main aim was to rid NI off the British and have a united ireland.
They FAILED and our further away from a united Ireland with their political wing Sinn Fein sitting in Stormint something they swore they would never do.
Thousands dead for no reason, ira volunteers turning in their graves.
Complete failure of war and complete Sinn Fein u turn.
And their formation, and actions were another, massive, wrong. It ensured that violence escalated, and many more people died. They still are causing misery to this day too, although not on the same scale.
I don't believe their formation was wrong, although it very quickly went wrong. This might shock you but against the backdrop of sectarian murders and house burnings and the security forces not even attempting to protect people, I don't have any problem with the northern nationalist community arming themselves and shooting back. Where the IRA went wrong is where they started attacking people who weren't attacking the nationalist community.
The PIRA disbanded years ago though, so its inaccurate to say they are causing misery to this day.
I don't believe their formation was wrong, although it very quickly went wrong. This might shock you but against the backdrop of sectarian murders and house burnings and the security forces not even attempting to protect people, I don't have any problem with the northern nationalist community arming themselves and shooting back. Where the IRA went wrong is where they started attacking people who weren't attacking the nationalist community.
The PIRA disbanded years ago though, so its inaccurate to say they are causing misery to this day.
The name may have changed (slightly), but the same types, with the same hatreds, are still there.
As long as they are, on both sides, this will never be consigned to history.
The IRA main aim was to rid NI off the British and have a united ireland.
They FAILED and our further away from a united Ireland with their political wing Sinn Fein sitting in Stormint something they swore they would never do.
Thousands dead for no reason, ira volunteers turning in their graves.
Complete failure of war and complete Sinn Fein u turn.
Of course they failed in relation to a UI but that wasn't the reason they re-emerged at all. You are exactly right, some old IRA volunteers would turn in their grave but I'm betting most of them would have been pragmatic- sharing power, equality, education, etc was a monumental step forward.
We are as close or as far from a UI today as in 1922 but crucially nationalist are not out in the cold anymore- democracy will now decide the future. Nobody on any side should ever fear democracy.
The name may have changed (slightly), but the same types, with the same hatreds, are still there.
As long as they are, on both sides, this will never be consigned to history.
The change which has happened runs far deeper than a name change. The PIRA as an organisation has disbanded, and what's left is a small handful of dinosaurs who can't accept that The Troubles are over.
The change which has happened runs far deeper than a name change. The PIRA as an organisation has disbanded, and what's left is a small handful of dinosaurs who can't accept that The Troubles are over.
Absolutely right - no armed groups have any such support on the island now... 1998 put that to bed.
When Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness get the Nobel Peace Prize and then a future British Prime Minister has to apologise to the IRA, sorry "Sinn Fein", for the Troubles, then we'll see how grotesque the whole thing is.
It makes you wonder why we bothered with the War in Terror, when we were bending over backwards to accomodate terrorists on our own doorstep. Then again, it's easier to strike a pose and act tough when it's something that's happening thousands of miles away.
Indeed and international terrorists point to what was done in NI and it encourages them. Appeasement makes the world a more dangerous place.
You mean you never saw the totenkopf badges on those people in Warrington or that pregnant woman in Enniskillen?
My God man... they were goose stepping all over the place, they deserved to die!
You got your IRA atrocities mixed up. Easy to do as there were a lot of them. The pregnant woman killed was at Omagh. There were probably a few pregnant women at Enniskillen too. Luckily there were none killed. Also lucky that the bigger bomb planted at the same day at the border village of Tullyhommon which was a country ceremony, with virtually no military presence but with lots of chlidrens organisations like Boys Birgade - clearly NAZI equivalents,
The change which has happened runs far deeper than a name change. The PIRA as an organisation has disbanded, and what's left is a small handful of dinosaurs who can't accept that The Troubles are over.
I think as with any conflict there are some people who simply enjoy the 'lifestyle/notoriety' and no doubt there are those who profit from it in some way .
(Interesting discussion on an Irish forum, would be interesting from a mainly British perspective)...
They were a necessity of their time (70's on) - their re-emergence, a result of brutal oppression of a minority people who's only crime was being born north of a line that a Government in London drew in 1921.
Without the orange state mentality the IRA would never ever have re-emerged as the "protector of the people". Without the IRA's violence equality in the north today would probably never have came about.
Discuss -
Cowardly terrorism from neanderthal murdering thugs is never a necessity.
Cowardly terrorism from neanderthal murdering thugs is never a necessity.
Yet again you seem to be another one who says these things but does not look at the big picture- why do YOU think the IRA gained so much support (at one point at least) in NI and to a degree in ROI?
Emotive language is fine but means rather nothing at the end of the day,
Cowardly terrorism from neanderthal murdering thugs is never a necessity.
The Republic of Ireland having to set up refugee camps at the border to accommodate Catholics fleeing sectarian violence in the UK in the latter half of the 20th century should never have been a necessity either. But it was.
The Republic of Ireland having to set up refugee camps at the border to accommodate Catholics fleeing sectarian violence in the UK in the latter half of the 20th century should never have been a necessity either. But it was.
A fact often conveniently forgotten! - I know of families down here who used to take kids in to give them a break from the violence.
Yet again you seem to be another one who says these things but does not look at the big picture- why do YOU think the IRA gained so much support (at one point at least) in NI and to a degree in ROI?
Emotive language is fine but means rather nothing at the end of the day,
Getting their own back, by increasing the violence levels to new highs (or lows) was not the answer.
I'm staggered that anyone could seek justification for these people.
I think the PIRA were a necessity in the early 70s, because after atrocities like the burning of Bombay Street and the complete unwillingness of the security forces to enforce the law, the nationalist community had to take the law into their own hands to protect themselves.
Where the IRA went wrong is that they didn't stick to that remit of protecting their own community, and in fact ended up visiting the same misery on other communities that they'd started out fighting against. Of course, it all could have been avoided if better decisions had been taken by the British government back in 1922. Either they shouldn't have partitioned Ireland at all, or if they were going to partition it they should have imposed direct rule straight away.
What they did gave Britain and Ireland the worst of both worlds - a part of Ireland still in the UK, where the buck would ultimately stop with the British government if things went wrong, without imposing enough control to ensure that things didn't go wrong.
Agree with most of that. It's perfectly obvious though that a lot of horrible and nasty people ended up in Republican and Loyalist groups in the 70s and 80s.....perhaps it served as a magnet for the psychopaths and sociopaths on both sides of the community? Not to mention an assorted bunch of hate filled bigots.The perfect opportunity for them to satisfy their blood lust and dress it up as nationalism and loyalism.
No, there was no excuse for what they did. Just because something is wrong does not justify cowardly murders of innocents.
I didn't ask you the merits of killing people - what other avenue did nationalists have? ... The re-emergence mirrored to an extent what happened in Ireland between 1916-22 - your head of state laid a wreath for them and bowed her head. History had already told both governments that the dam would burst eventually - and my God did it.
Comments
Of course we'll never know for certain, as we don't have a PIRA-free alternative NI to act as a control group, to compare against.
However, as there have been great changes, socially and politically, across a whole range of issues over the last 50 or so years, eg gay rights, discrimination laws, etc, I'm inclined to think that changes could have been achieved by peaceful means.
I suppose it could be argued that there was a non IRA Northern Ireland for the most between 1922-1969 - politics/dialogue never worked... Was the IRA inevitable in that situation?
1965 was the year democracy and dialogue should and could have worked, the meeting between the two dynamic, forward thinking Irish/N.Irish leaders - Lemass and O'Neill. That handshake was one of the greatest lost opportunities on the island. It was seen down south as the way forward, celebrated hugely but staunch northern Loyalists prevented friendship - for that loyalists must take a lot of the blame for the re-emergence of the IRA IMO.
Where the IRA went wrong is that they didn't stick to that remit of protecting their own community, and in fact ended up visiting the same misery on other communities that they'd started out fighting against. Of course, it all could have been avoided if better decisions had been taken by the British government back in 1922. Either they shouldn't have partitioned Ireland at all, or if they were going to partition it they should have imposed direct rule straight away.
What they did gave Britain and Ireland the worst of both worlds - a part of Ireland still in the UK, where the buck would ultimately stop with the British government if things went wrong, without imposing enough control to ensure that things didn't go wrong.
They were terrorists who killed many innocent people, and many found they enjoyed the power being in such a group brought them, and such characters are still there today.
Whatever wrongs were done in history did not justify the formation of all these groups of people who went on to believe they had the right to dish out violence for whatever their cause was.
Today it is even more wrong for such groups to exist, but they like that power.
And their formation, and actions were another, massive, wrong. It ensured that violence escalated, and many more people died. They still are causing misery to this day too, although not on the same scale.
They FAILED and our further away from a united Ireland with their political wing Sinn Fein sitting in Stormint something they swore they would never do.
Thousands dead for no reason, ira volunteers turning in their graves.
Complete failure of war and complete Sinn Fein u turn.
I don't believe their formation was wrong, although it very quickly went wrong. This might shock you but against the backdrop of sectarian murders and house burnings and the security forces not even attempting to protect people, I don't have any problem with the northern nationalist community arming themselves and shooting back. Where the IRA went wrong is where they started attacking people who weren't attacking the nationalist community.
The PIRA disbanded years ago though, so its inaccurate to say they are causing misery to this day.
The name may have changed (slightly), but the same types, with the same hatreds, are still there.
As long as they are, on both sides, this will never be consigned to history.
We are as close or as far from a UI today as in 1922 but crucially nationalist are not out in the cold anymore- democracy will now decide the future. Nobody on any side should ever fear democracy.
The change which has happened runs far deeper than a name change. The PIRA as an organisation has disbanded, and what's left is a small handful of dinosaurs who can't accept that The Troubles are over.
Indeed and international terrorists point to what was done in NI and it encourages them. Appeasement makes the world a more dangerous place.
You got your IRA atrocities mixed up. Easy to do as there were a lot of them. The pregnant woman killed was at Omagh. There were probably a few pregnant women at Enniskillen too. Luckily there were none killed. Also lucky that the bigger bomb planted at the same day at the border village of Tullyhommon which was a country ceremony, with virtually no military presence but with lots of chlidrens organisations like Boys Birgade - clearly NAZI equivalents,
I think as with any conflict there are some people who simply enjoy the 'lifestyle/notoriety' and no doubt there are those who profit from it in some way .
Cowardly terrorism from neanderthal murdering thugs is never a necessity.
Emotive language is fine but means rather nothing at the end of the day,
The Republic of Ireland having to set up refugee camps at the border to accommodate Catholics fleeing sectarian violence in the UK in the latter half of the 20th century should never have been a necessity either. But it was.
Getting their own back, by increasing the violence levels to new highs (or lows) was not the answer.
I'm staggered that anyone could seek justification for these people.
No, there was no excuse for what they did. Just because something is wrong does not justify cowardly murders of innocents.
Agree with most of that. It's perfectly obvious though that a lot of horrible and nasty people ended up in Republican and Loyalist groups in the 70s and 80s.....perhaps it served as a magnet for the psychopaths and sociopaths on both sides of the community? Not to mention an assorted bunch of hate filled bigots.The perfect opportunity for them to satisfy their blood lust and dress it up as nationalism and loyalism.