Are you expecting either a future Conservative or Labour PM to offer UKIP MPs seats in government in return for their support ?
If, as I surmise, the LibDems are finished, and UKIP could then potentially become the third party, then they would be the Kingmakers if either the Tories or Labour could not win the next general election. But we will have to wait and see.
Are people scared to have controlled imigration? If the conservatives want to win the next election thats what they Need to do.
The conservatives want uncontrolled immigration in order to help keep wages and inflation down, and profits for the service industries up. Labour want the same, because it also keeps a core of indigenous benefits dependent junkies voting for them out of blind stupidity and naivety.
The sobering reality for UKIP supporters is that no matter how many times they proclaim it, the cold hard facts say that they take more votes and thus damage the Tories in a whole different lesgue to Labour. Labour already don't need that much of a gain to win an election without the presence of UKIP.
This "people's army" of UKIPers who have had enough, are just electing the very opposite of what they want via the side road.
The sobering reality for UKIP supporters is that no matter how many times they proclaim it, the cold hard facts say that they take more votes and thus damage the Tories in a whole different lesgue to Labour. Labour already don't need that much of a gain to win an election without the presence of UKIP.
This "people's army" of UKIPers who have had enough, are just electing the very opposite of what they want via the side road.
Trying to blame UKIP for the demise of votes to Labour and Conservatives isn't feasible to me.
Did you say the same thing last general election when more people were voting Lib Dem?
Tories have launched a "witch hunt" for potential Ukip defectors as David Cameron promises personally to stop Mark Reckless keeping his seat in Rochester and Strood, ahead of the Clacton by-election on Thursday
It's because Cameron is running the same scared route as quite a few people on here.
So when the UK leaves the EU, exactly how are you going to stop people illegally migrating into the UK from the Republic of Ireland and across the border into Northern Ireland ?
This point has taken the place of roaming charges, hasn't it. It will be considerably easier to stop people using Eire as a route to the UK.
This point has taken the place of roaming charges, hasn't it. It will be considerably easier to stop people using Eire as a route to the UK.
The building work better start soon for the Mexican style border between ROI and NI. I can tell you as someone who lives here, what passes for the border at the moment is a stream and a few fields. So if really don't see how they stop it with the current facilities.
I'm obviously not in any position to do anything am I? I wasn't aware of what you say, but common sense would say that illegal migration to any country is wrong?
But how we would stop it ?
I've been to one of the UK / Republic of Ireland international border points. Specifically to a little town called Bridge End just outside Derry/Londonderry. This international border is practically unmarked (save for speed limit changes) and is unpatrolled. There are no signs saying "Welcome to the United Kingdom" or "Welcome to the Republic of Ireland"
When the UK (and Northern Ireland) leave the EU, the Republic of Ireland will still be in the EU. So migrants can just come from say Romania to Dublin via Paris or Frankfurt. Then continue to the United Kingdom via Northern Ireland. Remember: the Republic of Ireland will still be in the EU single market.
Possible solutions:
Patrolled border between Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland complete full immigration. Will be unpopular with nationalists and undermines the Good Friday Agreement
Passport checks on all ferries and flights between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. Has already been tempted, but rejected by unionists
Spot checks on both sides of the border based on intelligence. But illegal immigration could still continue. In effect, the UK would still have a 'leaky' border.
We may have closed down the infamous Lille Loophole, but there is another in Northern Ireland.
The building work better start soon for the Mexican style border between ROI and NI. facilities.
Quite possibly. Because when the UK leaves the EU, word is sure to spread out about open border between the UK and rest of the EU in Northern Ireland.
Are you a Romanian keen to get into the UK at any price ? Were you refuse entry at Heathrow ? Then travel overland from Eastern Europe to France, take the daily Irish Ferries crossing from France to the Republic of Ireland. Then cross the unpatrolled border into Northern Ireland and on to the UK.
I can tell you as someone who lives here, what passes for the border at the moment is a stream and a few fields. So if really don't see how they stop it with the current facilities.
Agreed. Seen the border myself. Apart from speed limit changes, you are unaware you have crossed an international border.
Meanwhile, an agreement has been made between the UK and the Republic of Ireland for non-EU nationalities to travel freely between the two countries on a single permit. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-29509552
So how does this square the Conservatives' policy on the UK keeping control of its own borders ?
A response from UKIP please - a especially from voters in Clacton ?
The following statements represent highlights of UKIP's policy announcements as made at the Doncaster Conference. More detailed announcements will be made in the run up to the 2015 General Election.
Meanwhile, an agreement has been made between the UK and the Republic of Ireland for non-EU nationalities to travel freely between the two countries on a single permit. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-29509552
So how does this square the Conservatives' policy on the UK keeping control of its own borders ?
A response from UKIP please - a especially from voters in Clacton ?
Read it carefully, Nicholas, and you will see the word permit, even visa. At the moment it will apply to just two foreign nations. If we pull out of the EU, technically, the EU nationals will not get a permit, unless of course British politicians roll over.....as they frequently do.
Meanwhile, an agreement has been made between the UK and the Republic of Ireland for non-EU nationalities to travel freely between the two countries on a single permit. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-29509552
So how does this square the Conservatives' policy on the UK keeping control of its own borders ?
A response from UKIP please - a especially from voters in Clacton ?
I'm not a spokesperson for the Conservatives or UKIP, but I'll try and apply some logic to this.
I would suggest that the controlling borders rhetoric isn't necessarily about the physical borders, but being able to decide who can work here and use our services and ultimately who from other countries we allow to stay here. Currently the UK can only do this with people from certain countries, leaving others that are exempt for this control.
The following statements represent highlights of UKIP's policy announcements as made at the Doncaster Conference. More detailed announcements will be made in the run up to the 2015 General Election.
If we pull out of the EU, technically, the EU nationals will not get a permit, unless of course British politicians roll over.....as they frequently do.
Agreed.
If we do pull out of the EU, expect British business to lobby hard for us to stay in the EU single market and for numerous exceptions to made allowing EU nationals to continuing working and living here.
The following statements represent highlights of UKIP's policy announcements as made at the Doncaster Conference. More detailed announcements will be made in the run up to the 2015 General Election.
"We would review all legislation and regulations from the EU (3,600 new laws since 2010) and remove those which hamper British prosperity and competitiveness."
Expect British business to lobby hard a future UKIP government to retain UK access to the EU single market.
"UKIP would not seek to remain in the European Free Trade Area (EFTA) or European Economic Area (EEA) while those treaties maintain a principle of free movement of labour, which prevents the UK managing its own borders."
Expect British business to lobby hard a future UKIP government to retain UK access to the EU single market.
" UKIP will leave the EU and save at least £8bn pa in net contributions."
That's £21 million per day. Less than the £53 million which UKIP quote elsehwere: http://www.ukipmeps.org/pdf_news_711.pdf
"We will ensure that visitors to the UK.... have NHS-approved private health insurance as a condition of entry to the UK"
Does that include everyone ? Including say day trippers who've just come of the Eurostar from Lille or Paris having Saturday in London ? Or shoppers crossing the border from Dundalk to Newry ?
"UKIP will leave the EU, and take back control of our borders"
Including the open unpatrolled international border with the Republic of Ireland ?
"UKIP will overcome the unfairness of MPs from devolved nations voting on English-only issues"
So are UKIP going to restrict the voting rights of some UK MPs in the UK parliament ?
[QUOTE=nethwen;75126901 . . . . . but common sense would say that illegal migration to any country is wrong?[/QUOTE]
And illegal immigration happens in the majority of countries, which suggests that no government has found an answer to it.
It would appear though that countries with only water around them as a natural border, rather than land borders, would have a massive advanatage when it comes to controlling immigration of any kind. Australia and New Zealand do have illegals, but probably not anything like other countries. Great Britain is an island.
These are by-elections, but they're also quite close to the General Election. Whichever way it's looked at this is a breakthrough for UKIP.
In a couple of months when by-elections cannot take place before May, there will probably be a significant number of MPs crossing the floor to join UKIP to stand at the General Election.
Could UKIP come 1st or 2nd in every seat in England at the forthcoming general election?
I think it's a realistic possibility, most seats will be 2nd, but it will still be an incredible achievement.
Labour, conservatives and the liberals are all in danger of ending the night with less seats than they started with, especially with the SNP also rising in Scotland.
The times, they are a-changing.
and the views of a UKIP MEP about TTIP http://www.gerardbattenmep.com/ttips-transatlantic-trade-6-intestment-partnership/
"
1 Trade policy should be decided by the British Parliament and not the European Union.
2 I oppose TTIPs and if and when I get to vote on this in the European Parliament I will vote against.
3 From what I know of the TTIPs negotiations so far it represents another aspect of the growing ‘coporatisation’ of the world whereby policy is decided by big business and not by soveriegn governments.
4 In my ten years as a UKIP MEP I have never voted for EU legislation and I never will. The European Union has no legitimacy to legislate over the British people.
Could UKIP come 1st or 2nd in every seat in England at the forthcoming general election?
I think it's a realistic possibility, most seats will be 2nd, but it will still be an incredible achievement.
Labour, conservatives and the liberals are all in danger of ending the night with less seats than they started with, especially with the SNP also rising in Scotland.
The times, they are a-changing.
Politics has started to become exciting again - even the political commentators simply have no idea how the GE will pan out.
Comments
If, as I surmise, the LibDems are finished, and UKIP could then potentially become the third party, then they would be the Kingmakers if either the Tories or Labour could not win the next general election. But we will have to wait and see.
The conservatives want uncontrolled immigration in order to help keep wages and inflation down, and profits for the service industries up. Labour want the same, because it also keeps a core of indigenous benefits dependent junkies voting for them out of blind stupidity and naivety.
This "people's army" of UKIPers who have had enough, are just electing the very opposite of what they want via the side road.
Trying to blame UKIP for the demise of votes to Labour and Conservatives isn't feasible to me.
Did you say the same thing last general election when more people were voting Lib Dem?
It's because Cameron is running the same scared route as quite a few people on here.
This point has taken the place of roaming charges, hasn't it. It will be considerably easier to stop people using Eire as a route to the UK.
The building work better start soon for the Mexican style border between ROI and NI. I can tell you as someone who lives here, what passes for the border at the moment is a stream and a few fields. So if really don't see how they stop it with the current facilities.
But how we would stop it ?
I've been to one of the UK / Republic of Ireland international border points. Specifically to a little town called Bridge End just outside Derry/Londonderry. This international border is practically unmarked (save for speed limit changes) and is unpatrolled. There are no signs saying "Welcome to the United Kingdom" or "Welcome to the Republic of Ireland"
When the UK (and Northern Ireland) leave the EU, the Republic of Ireland will still be in the EU. So migrants can just come from say Romania to Dublin via Paris or Frankfurt. Then continue to the United Kingdom via Northern Ireland. Remember: the Republic of Ireland will still be in the EU single market.
Possible solutions:
Patrolled border between Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland complete full immigration. Will be unpopular with nationalists and undermines the Good Friday Agreement
Passport checks on all ferries and flights between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. Has already been tempted, but rejected by unionists
Spot checks on both sides of the border based on intelligence. But illegal immigration could still continue. In effect, the UK would still have a 'leaky' border.
We may have closed down the infamous Lille Loophole, but there is another in Northern Ireland.
In practice how would this work ?
Because I am at a struggle to know how you'd make this effective. You'd either annoy the nationalists or annoy the unionists.
I'm open to ideas....
Quite possibly. Because when the UK leaves the EU, word is sure to spread out about open border between the UK and rest of the EU in Northern Ireland.
Are you a Romanian keen to get into the UK at any price ? Were you refuse entry at Heathrow ? Then travel overland from Eastern Europe to France, take the daily Irish Ferries crossing from France to the Republic of Ireland. Then cross the unpatrolled border into Northern Ireland and on to the UK.
Agreed. Seen the border myself. Apart from speed limit changes, you are unaware you have crossed an international border.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-29509552
So how does this square the Conservatives' policy on the UK keeping control of its own borders ?
A response from UKIP please - a especially from voters in Clacton ?
What a UKIP Government Will Do.
Read it carefully, Nicholas, and you will see the word permit, even visa. At the moment it will apply to just two foreign nations. If we pull out of the EU, technically, the EU nationals will not get a permit, unless of course British politicians roll over.....as they frequently do.
I'm not a spokesperson for the Conservatives or UKIP, but I'll try and apply some logic to this.
I would suggest that the controlling borders rhetoric isn't necessarily about the physical borders, but being able to decide who can work here and use our services and ultimately who from other countries we allow to stay here. Currently the UK can only do this with people from certain countries, leaving others that are exempt for this control.
Amongst the many and varied "highlights" repealing the agency worker rights legislation.
Agreed.
If we do pull out of the EU, expect British business to lobby hard for us to stay in the EU single market and for numerous exceptions to made allowing EU nationals to continuing working and living here.
"We would review all legislation and regulations from the EU (3,600 new laws since 2010) and remove those which hamper British prosperity and competitiveness."
Expect British business to lobby hard a future UKIP government to retain UK access to the EU single market.
"UKIP would not seek to remain in the European Free Trade Area (EFTA) or European Economic Area (EEA) while those treaties maintain a principle of free movement of labour, which prevents the UK managing its own borders."
Expect British business to lobby hard a future UKIP government to retain UK access to the EU single market.
" UKIP will leave the EU and save at least £8bn pa in net contributions."
That's £21 million per day. Less than the £53 million which UKIP quote elsehwere: http://www.ukipmeps.org/pdf_news_711.pdf
"We will ensure that visitors to the UK.... have NHS-approved private health insurance as a condition of entry to the UK"
Does that include everyone ? Including say day trippers who've just come of the Eurostar from Lille or Paris having Saturday in London ? Or shoppers crossing the border from Dundalk to Newry ?
"UKIP will leave the EU, and take back control of our borders"
Including the open unpatrolled international border with the Republic of Ireland ?
"UKIP will overcome the unfairness of MPs from devolved nations voting on English-only issues"
So are UKIP going to restrict the voting rights of some UK MPs in the UK parliament ?
Talk at H&M count of Lab polling about 42% & UKIP about 35%. Based on official turnout of 36.02%, that would suggest Lab maj about 2,000.
If true that is a very good result for UKIP.
And illegal immigration happens in the majority of countries, which suggests that no government has found an answer to it.
It would appear though that countries with only water around them as a natural border, rather than land borders, would have a massive advanatage when it comes to controlling immigration of any kind. Australia and New Zealand do have illegals, but probably not anything like other countries. Great Britain is an island.
In a couple of months when by-elections cannot take place before May, there will probably be a significant number of MPs crossing the floor to join UKIP to stand at the General Election.
I think it's a realistic possibility, most seats will be 2nd, but it will still be an incredible achievement.
Labour, conservatives and the liberals are all in danger of ending the night with less seats than they started with, especially with the SNP also rising in Scotland.
The times, they are a-changing.
Yes - what a brilliant night, the Labour "rotten boroughs" of the north are now very vunerable, Labour in Rotherham now have one hell of a headache.
It's also good to know many people in Clacton were not taken in by "the effing Tories".
For those who haven't seen these
What a UKIP government will do http://www.ukip.org/policies_for_people?utm_campaign=preview_policy&utm_medium=email&utm_source=ukip
and the views of a UKIP MEP about TTIP
http://www.gerardbattenmep.com/ttips-transatlantic-trade-6-intestment-partnership/
"
1 Trade policy should be decided by the British Parliament and not the European Union.
2 I oppose TTIPs and if and when I get to vote on this in the European Parliament I will vote against.
3 From what I know of the TTIPs negotiations so far it represents another aspect of the growing ‘coporatisation’ of the world whereby policy is decided by big business and not by soveriegn governments.
4 In my ten years as a UKIP MEP I have never voted for EU legislation and I never will. The European Union has no legitimacy to legislate over the British people.
Politics has started to become exciting again - even the political commentators simply have no idea how the GE will pan out.