I've been thinking long and hard about this. I agree that John Hurt, on first instinct shouldn't be the 9th Doctor from the Time War. Would it be worth making Matt Smith the 12th doctor and leaving us with one regeneration for the sake of one episode?
However, the key here is Clara survived. Firstly she has been spread across the doctors timeline, she has been there every step of the way, including the Time War, secondly she also read "The History of the Time War" or at least an important part of the Time War where she said "So thats who!" in Journey to the Center of the Tardis. In the Name of the Doctor she remembered the Journey of the Tardis and therefore should remember what she read in the History of the Tardis.
So my belief is perhaps the 50th Anniversary will be Clara revealing what truly happened in the Time War. We have heard lots about it, well how it ended anyway, but we still don't know exactly what happened. My other theory is that she remembers some of what she read (and one echo of her should have been in the time war) which means that she could force the Doctor to tell her, or having already been in the Time War she would be able to open the Time Lock, giving us the chance to visit the Time War.
People are talking about the Doctor running all of his life, and John Hurt is somehow tied into this but remember this is time travel, and there are fixed points in time. The Time War was an event that happened eternally, again and again and again, there is no time limit to the time war, it goes on for infinity (and why it is time locked), at least until the Doctor ended it. Therefore from the day the Doctor stared into the void, the tear in space-time he would have seen his fate in the Time War he would have seen himself standing there alone while the two greatest races in the universe burn. That is what made him choose his name in my opinion; the man who makes people better. He spent his life running from that fate.
I therefore believe that the 8th Doctor refuses to fight in the Time War, after all the Doctor is a man who never carries a weapon, never killing directly. The 8th Doctor died in the Time War through his refusal to fight, causing him to regenerate into John Hurt, imagine that, a Doctor born in the Time War around murder, war and a dictator regime of time lords. This would undoubtedly shape him into a much darker time lord, one that is prepared to kill and uphold the Time Lord as the supreme race.
What we don't know, is how the Doctor actually ends the Time War, how does he destroy Galifrei with no survivors apart from himself? One of my theories for a long time is that the final Doctor returns to the Time War and makes the 8th/9th Doctor escape while he sacrifices his final body destroying Galifrei and ending the War. Will the 50th Anniversary be similar? Will Matt Smith enter the Time War and end it while John Hurt's/Eccleston's Doctor escapes with dignity?
I'm not sure, and I'm finding it very cruel we have to wait until 23rd November to find out, but I am very excited nonetheless.
Well it seems clear that John Hurt's character is his greatest secret.
Yes it would make sense that this someone revolves around the Time War since that's a rather big 'gap'.
It's absolutely nothing to do with the fact that he killed the Time Lords and Daleks - that isn't a secret and that act was done in the name of the Doctor. It's attributed to him.
Clara didn't see Hurt's character at all even though she's been through every one of the Doctor's lives which strongly suggests he's not a normal part of of the Doctor's timeline.
John Hurt himself said he's playing PART of the Doctor.
He's not 'the Doctor' and doesn't carry that name.
Hence, I think he's something created from the Doctor (tied in to the rather weighted line from the cyber planner about how you could reconstruct the Doctor from the hole he's left in the universe). He contains the Doctor's more ruthless, warrior like aspects. And no it wouldn't surprise me if he started the Time War and our Doctor then felt duty bound to stop it in any way.
OK, although I agree that Hurt almost certainly plays a missing regeneration, here's an alternative theory I've been playing with:
When Smith's Doctor stepped into his own timeline, he died. That's why Clara only saw 11 Doctors. She next saw him in a place where all the other past Doctors were running around. Off camera, Matt Smith regenerated. There is a 12th Doctor out there. As Tennant used up a regeneration, it was effectively the 12th regeneration that we didn't see in TNOTD.The Valeyard was then produced, which is played by Hurt. He does not go by the name of The Doctor, and Smith would know who is as he has met him before.
Possibly needs a bit of work (there's the whole promise thing to take account of), but I was trying to work out how they could get away with showing an alternative bad Doctor now, and then deal with The Valeyard later - it's too similar a concept. Until now I half expected The Valeyard to be forgotton about, but as he was mentioned in TNOTD, it's now much more likely that he will make an appearance in the not too distant future.
OK, although I agree that Hurt almost certainly plays a missing regeneration, here's an alternative theory I've been playing with:
When Smith's Doctor stepped into his own timeline, he died. That's why Clara only saw 11 Doctors. She next saw him in a place where all the other past Doctors were running around. Off camera, Matt Smith regenerated. There is a 12th Doctor out there. As Tennant used up a regeneration, it was effectively the 12th regeneration that we didn't see in TNOTD.The Valeyard was then produced, which is played by Hurt. He does not go by the name of The Doctor, and Smith would know who is as he has met him before.
Possibly needs a bit of work (there's the whole promise thing to take account of), but I was trying to work out how they could get away with showing an alternative bad Doctor now, and then deal with The Valeyard later - it's too similar a concept. Until now I half expected The Valeyard to be forgotton about, but as he was mentioned in TNOTD, it's now much more likely that he will make an appearance in the not too distant future.
And taking this further, Hurt being freed while in the Doctor's timeline is now potentially in a position where he can steal the Doctor's regenerations...
It's getting quite interesting trying to figure it out:)
Haven't seen this one anywhere.......
Time war happens. McGann regenerates at the end of it in the event which locks all the Daleks and the Timelords.,,,,,into John Hurt, who now goes a bit mental and does 'something' pretty bad. Then regenerates into what we know as 9. Now- there has to be something in there that he is 'running from' all his life. So- possibly while the timewar is still accesible, before it becomes locked for good, John Hurt actually does something to either 1-start the time war, 2- something else on Gallifrey, which Doctor no.1 finds out about, causing him to steal a Tardis and run away to Earth, determined that he'd never become that person in the future, 3- kills his own ancestor/previous regeneration, making a paradox ( perhaps the event which locked the time war?). Again, Doc1 finds out and runs away.
BUT the Hurt Doctor CAN NOT be the Doctor from the time-war....
He can't have meant the time-war in the thing he did that was not in the name of the Doctor..
The secret is something the Dr has been running from ALL his life..... The time war was between his 8th and 9th incarnations which was already well into his life so the time frame makes 0 sense if the time-war is his secret.
Plus, we already know about the time war and the Doctor was the one who ended it, he openly talks about it how he was the one who destroyed the Daleks and his own people to stop the war.
It has to be something different, it just doesn't fit in with things if it is the Doctor from the time-war... The secret is something he has ran from for his whole life....That can not be the actions in the Time-War
Well John Hurt said in an interview he was from the Time War and is the REAL ninth Doctor so.
I don't think that it has ever been stated that the Doctor was running away from the secret all his life. What Dorium said in TWORS was: "The question that must never be answered, hidden in plain sight. The question you've been running from all your life. Doctor who? Doctor who? Doc-tor *who*?"
He's been running away from the question, not from the secret. Moffat seems to love doing stuff like this, just as "it is discovered" was refering to the Doctor's grave and not to his secret.
Interesting is that he says that the trinity also includes Tennant, but he doesn't say Smith. Is that because it should be obvious because Smith is the current Doctor or does it mean that the third part of the trinity is someone different?
Interesting is that he says that the trinity also includes Tennant, but he doesn't say Smith. Is that because it should be obvious because Smith is the current Doctor or does it mean that the third part of the trinity is someone different?
Starring Matt Smith as The Doctor, David Tennant as The Doctor and John Hurt as The Doctor. I dunno. It's awfully ambiguous.
Starring Matt Smith as The Doctor, David Tennant as The Doctor and John Hurt as The Doctor. I dunno. It's awfully ambiguous.
Well, yes. But it's not like we know the full cast for the episode for sure yet, do we? Of course it's most likely that he was talking about Matt, but one can always imagine.
I agree he's not from the Time War. Though we are supposed to think that, the Doctor has said more than once what happened at the end of it. He admitted to the Dalek that he was responsible for what happened. He freely admitted it to the Time Lords and the Master. He also, at some point, told Amy, and was ready to tell any Time Lords he found alive. It seems that, while he hates what he had to do, he feels like he was justified in doing so.
As he said himself, the Daleks had created terrible things as the war escalated, other races were being terribly effected by it to such an extent it led to situations like that with the Gelth, he had tried literally everything else to end it, and last but not least, the Time Lords were planning to wipe out the entirety of creation to finish it. Therefore, his actions haunted him for some time, yet he was always open about them. He stated in the Beast Below he wouldn't call himself the Doctor anymore after destroying the brain of the Space Whale, yet has freely still gone by the Doctor since the War. We saw how much the War effected him, not just in the 9th incarnation but also the 10th. It is only now, in the 11th, that he seems to finally have recovered, but even so is still haunted by it. As he admitted himself, he was so desperate to find alive Time Lords primarily to receive some level of forgiveness.
Taking all this into account, it seems likely that the Hurt Doctor is from another time entirely. The Doctor has been running from his real identity all his life, which may indeed be the reason why he left Gallifrey in the first place. IMO, the Hurt Doctor is the original. The one who did something so awful that the Doctor chose to abandon that identity and become the Doctor. Therefore, the 1st Doctor is still technically the original Doctor, and remember he did use the words "the original, you might say."
I mean, ultimately, we already know what the Doctor did at the end of the Time War. The only thing that isn't clear is what the Moment was. I think Moff has a little something else up his sleeve tbh, but has slotted in a nice red herring by bringing up the Time War again. Bare in mind, we haven't even heard it mentioned by name in series 5 and 6, aside from hints at it in the Doctor's Wife. Even the episodes featuring the Daleks seemed to have retconned it.
I mean, ultimately, we already know what the Doctor did at the end of the Time War. The only thing that isn't clear is what the Moment was. I think Moff has a little something else up his sleeve tbh, but has slotted in a nice red herring by bringing up the Time War again. Bare in mind, we haven't even heard it mentioned by name in series 5 and 6, aside from hints at it in the Doctor's Wife. Even the episodes featuring the Daleks seemed to have retconned it.
When exactly did he bring up the time war?
There could still be secrets pertaining to the time war, like who started it in the first place, Hurt's Doctor perhaps?
I think it is clear that Hurt is the real 9th Doctor from the time war. I think Moffat really wanted to explore the war through Ecclestone and when he refused he had to bring in Hurts character.
As it has been established we know that the Doctor ended the time war by not just destroying the Daleks but his own race. This could be the horrible thing he did but there must be some other element to it we don't know. It could be that he was the one to start it or it could be something more insidious.
As for the whole, when a Timelord takes a name thing... I think he was referring to the fact that Timelords adopt a name and this represents their character. The Doctor chose his name because it represents "healer and wise man". Hurt's incarnation broke this promise because he committed genocide, therefore he broke the promise of being a Doctor.
I have a feeling the 50th is going to unlock the time war and Moffat wants to open up Gallifrey for future stories.
I think it is clear that Hurt is the real 9th Doctor from the time war. I think Moffat really wanted to explore the war through Ecclestone and when he refused he had to bring in Hurts character.
As it has been established we know that the Doctor ended the time war by not just destroying the Daleks but his own race. This could be the horrible thing he did but there must be some other element to it we don't know. It could be that he was the one to start it or it could be something more insidious.
As for the whole, when a Timelord takes a name thing... I think he was referring to the fact that Timelords adopt a name and this represents their character. The Doctor chose his name because it represents "healer and wise man". Hurt's incarnation broke this promise because he committed genocide, therefore he broke the promise of being a Doctor.
I have a feeling the 50th is going to unlock the time war and Moffat wants to open up Gallifrey for future stories.
I do tend to lean very strongly to this.
The very fact that Moffat really wanted Christopher Ecclestone to be on board and had several meetings with him, speaks volumes.
Of course it could be possible that when finding out that he couldn't get him, the introduction of John Hurt could mean a completely different story as opposed to an amended story.
I would imagine that they have contingency plans should they not be able to get the actors they want.
Whenever the Doctor does something terrible, something he is ashamed of, the lives he's taken, the companions he's lost or anything else he has done than is not in the 'name of the doctor', he hides them in a manifestation.
That manifestation is John Hurt's character, thus why he looks so worn and haggard, having the burden of all that shame (The Doctor has done terrible things during his 1,200 years!), but that manifestation now wants to break free. The Doctor is scared the terrible deeds he hides in this manifestation will come to light.
I quite like this idea.
I have not read too many spoilers, so I have have missed some info, but I am sure that someone mentioned a trinity, which this would fit into, Matt Smiths Doctor being the actual Doctor, David Tennants doctor being the human doctor with Rose and Hurts doctor being the bad things the doctor has done.
The very fact that Moffat really wanted Christopher Ecclestone to be on board and had several meetings with him, speaks volumes.
Of course it could be possible that when finding out that he couldn't get him, the introduction of John Hurt could mean a completely different story as opposed to an amended story.
If you trust the rumours (probably unfounded) that CE's Doctor wouldn't have had much to do, my suspicion would be that it would only be a regeneration sequence from Hurt into Nine, making the connection clear. I think the Hurt Doctor was always part of Moffat's plan - after all, the focus on the Doctor's identity and the secrets he keeps have been introduced for a while.
whether Hurt's Doctor is from the Time War or not, did something terrible to start it, end it, you can't help feeling that the Time War itself is being held back for a Dr Who film, should such a thing come to pass.
The Time War, but with the possibility of it ending differently
Comments
However, the key here is Clara survived. Firstly she has been spread across the doctors timeline, she has been there every step of the way, including the Time War, secondly she also read "The History of the Time War" or at least an important part of the Time War where she said "So thats who!" in Journey to the Center of the Tardis. In the Name of the Doctor she remembered the Journey of the Tardis and therefore should remember what she read in the History of the Tardis.
So my belief is perhaps the 50th Anniversary will be Clara revealing what truly happened in the Time War. We have heard lots about it, well how it ended anyway, but we still don't know exactly what happened. My other theory is that she remembers some of what she read (and one echo of her should have been in the time war) which means that she could force the Doctor to tell her, or having already been in the Time War she would be able to open the Time Lock, giving us the chance to visit the Time War.
People are talking about the Doctor running all of his life, and John Hurt is somehow tied into this but remember this is time travel, and there are fixed points in time. The Time War was an event that happened eternally, again and again and again, there is no time limit to the time war, it goes on for infinity (and why it is time locked), at least until the Doctor ended it. Therefore from the day the Doctor stared into the void, the tear in space-time he would have seen his fate in the Time War he would have seen himself standing there alone while the two greatest races in the universe burn. That is what made him choose his name in my opinion; the man who makes people better. He spent his life running from that fate.
I therefore believe that the 8th Doctor refuses to fight in the Time War, after all the Doctor is a man who never carries a weapon, never killing directly. The 8th Doctor died in the Time War through his refusal to fight, causing him to regenerate into John Hurt, imagine that, a Doctor born in the Time War around murder, war and a dictator regime of time lords. This would undoubtedly shape him into a much darker time lord, one that is prepared to kill and uphold the Time Lord as the supreme race.
What we don't know, is how the Doctor actually ends the Time War, how does he destroy Galifrei with no survivors apart from himself? One of my theories for a long time is that the final Doctor returns to the Time War and makes the 8th/9th Doctor escape while he sacrifices his final body destroying Galifrei and ending the War. Will the 50th Anniversary be similar? Will Matt Smith enter the Time War and end it while John Hurt's/Eccleston's Doctor escapes with dignity?
I'm not sure, and I'm finding it very cruel we have to wait until 23rd November to find out, but I am very excited nonetheless.
Yes it would make sense that this someone revolves around the Time War since that's a rather big 'gap'.
It's absolutely nothing to do with the fact that he killed the Time Lords and Daleks - that isn't a secret and that act was done in the name of the Doctor. It's attributed to him.
Clara didn't see Hurt's character at all even though she's been through every one of the Doctor's lives which strongly suggests he's not a normal part of of the Doctor's timeline.
John Hurt himself said he's playing PART of the Doctor.
He's not 'the Doctor' and doesn't carry that name.
Hence, I think he's something created from the Doctor (tied in to the rather weighted line from the cyber planner about how you could reconstruct the Doctor from the hole he's left in the universe). He contains the Doctor's more ruthless, warrior like aspects. And no it wouldn't surprise me if he started the Time War and our Doctor then felt duty bound to stop it in any way.
When Smith's Doctor stepped into his own timeline, he died. That's why Clara only saw 11 Doctors. She next saw him in a place where all the other past Doctors were running around. Off camera, Matt Smith regenerated. There is a 12th Doctor out there. As Tennant used up a regeneration, it was effectively the 12th regeneration that we didn't see in TNOTD.The Valeyard was then produced, which is played by Hurt. He does not go by the name of The Doctor, and Smith would know who is as he has met him before.
Possibly needs a bit of work (there's the whole promise thing to take account of), but I was trying to work out how they could get away with showing an alternative bad Doctor now, and then deal with The Valeyard later - it's too similar a concept. Until now I half expected The Valeyard to be forgotton about, but as he was mentioned in TNOTD, it's now much more likely that he will make an appearance in the not too distant future.
And taking this further, Hurt being freed while in the Doctor's timeline is now potentially in a position where he can steal the Doctor's regenerations...
It's getting quite interesting trying to figure it out:)
Haven't seen this one anywhere.......
Time war happens. McGann regenerates at the end of it in the event which locks all the Daleks and the Timelords.,,,,,into John Hurt, who now goes a bit mental and does 'something' pretty bad. Then regenerates into what we know as 9. Now- there has to be something in there that he is 'running from' all his life. So- possibly while the timewar is still accesible, before it becomes locked for good, John Hurt actually does something to either 1-start the time war, 2- something else on Gallifrey, which Doctor no.1 finds out about, causing him to steal a Tardis and run away to Earth, determined that he'd never become that person in the future, 3- kills his own ancestor/previous regeneration, making a paradox ( perhaps the event which locked the time war?). Again, Doc1 finds out and runs away.
Well John Hurt said in an interview he was from the Time War and is the REAL ninth Doctor so.
He's been running away from the question, not from the secret. Moffat seems to love doing stuff like this, just as "it is discovered" was refering to the Doctor's grave and not to his secret.
No he hasn't.
The most he has said is that in the 50th he is in a sort of 'trinity' with other Doctors (Tennant and Smith presumably).
Source?
He also said he plays "part of the Doctor", not the Doctor himself.
Given he is an actor, I'm fairly sure he meant part as in role/character. So yes, the Doctor himself.
No, he definitely says he plays "part of the Doctor".
Yes, the "part of the Doctor".
http://uk.tv.yahoo.com/john-hurt-part-doctor-trinity-131859755.html
Interesting is that he says that the trinity also includes Tennant, but he doesn't say Smith. Is that because it should be obvious because Smith is the current Doctor or does it mean that the third part of the trinity is someone different?
Starring Matt Smith as The Doctor, David Tennant as The Doctor and John Hurt as The Doctor. I dunno. It's awfully ambiguous.
Well, yes. But it's not like we know the full cast for the episode for sure yet, do we? Of course it's most likely that he was talking about Matt, but one can always imagine.
As he said himself, the Daleks had created terrible things as the war escalated, other races were being terribly effected by it to such an extent it led to situations like that with the Gelth, he had tried literally everything else to end it, and last but not least, the Time Lords were planning to wipe out the entirety of creation to finish it. Therefore, his actions haunted him for some time, yet he was always open about them. He stated in the Beast Below he wouldn't call himself the Doctor anymore after destroying the brain of the Space Whale, yet has freely still gone by the Doctor since the War. We saw how much the War effected him, not just in the 9th incarnation but also the 10th. It is only now, in the 11th, that he seems to finally have recovered, but even so is still haunted by it. As he admitted himself, he was so desperate to find alive Time Lords primarily to receive some level of forgiveness.
Taking all this into account, it seems likely that the Hurt Doctor is from another time entirely. The Doctor has been running from his real identity all his life, which may indeed be the reason why he left Gallifrey in the first place. IMO, the Hurt Doctor is the original. The one who did something so awful that the Doctor chose to abandon that identity and become the Doctor. Therefore, the 1st Doctor is still technically the original Doctor, and remember he did use the words "the original, you might say."
I mean, ultimately, we already know what the Doctor did at the end of the Time War. The only thing that isn't clear is what the Moment was. I think Moff has a little something else up his sleeve tbh, but has slotted in a nice red herring by bringing up the Time War again. Bare in mind, we haven't even heard it mentioned by name in series 5 and 6, aside from hints at it in the Doctor's Wife. Even the episodes featuring the Daleks seemed to have retconned it.
When exactly did he bring up the time war?
There could still be secrets pertaining to the time war, like who started it in the first place, Hurt's Doctor perhaps?
As it has been established we know that the Doctor ended the time war by not just destroying the Daleks but his own race. This could be the horrible thing he did but there must be some other element to it we don't know. It could be that he was the one to start it or it could be something more insidious.
As for the whole, when a Timelord takes a name thing... I think he was referring to the fact that Timelords adopt a name and this represents their character. The Doctor chose his name because it represents "healer and wise man". Hurt's incarnation broke this promise because he committed genocide, therefore he broke the promise of being a Doctor.
I have a feeling the 50th is going to unlock the time war and Moffat wants to open up Gallifrey for future stories.
I do tend to lean very strongly to this.
The very fact that Moffat really wanted Christopher Ecclestone to be on board and had several meetings with him, speaks volumes.
Of course it could be possible that when finding out that he couldn't get him, the introduction of John Hurt could mean a completely different story as opposed to an amended story.
I would imagine that they have contingency plans should they not be able to get the actors they want.
I quite like this idea.
I have not read too many spoilers, so I have have missed some info, but I am sure that someone mentioned a trinity, which this would fit into, Matt Smiths Doctor being the actual Doctor, David Tennants doctor being the human doctor with Rose and Hurts doctor being the bad things the doctor has done.
If you trust the rumours (probably unfounded) that CE's Doctor wouldn't have had much to do, my suspicion would be that it would only be a regeneration sequence from Hurt into Nine, making the connection clear. I think the Hurt Doctor was always part of Moffat's plan - after all, the focus on the Doctor's identity and the secrets he keeps have been introduced for a while.
The Time War, but with the possibility of it ending differently
Everyone has a great theory but really until its shown we really don't know. But it will keep us off the streets speculating about it till November.