That would be "Doctor lite".Yeah, I think so. Who-Lite refers (I assume) to a perception that this is a watered down version of the old show. To be fair to dervish's moment of lucidity, there is an argument to be made to this effect.
If anything isn't new who "Who-Heavy?"
They fit more stories into a season, They fit more action into an episode. In my opinion the pace is a lot faster nowadays.
All of that is true, but you're never going to get accurate science in DW (or an sci fi show really). I just think the concept is a really great one; it doesn't have to make perfect sense.
But we are not talking about "accurate science" here. I often say, on DS and elsewhere, that science fiction can have "fictional science" (warp drive in Star Trek, the TARDIS being bigger on the inside than it is on the outside, etc.). What we are talking about is "bogus logic," and unlike "fictional science," that is NOT acceptable in science fiction or any other kind of drama. When the Doctor says that the Carrionites use words in their science like humans use mathematics in their science, it is just false. I explained why it is false in detail above and I don't know how to explain it any more clearly, other than to say it would be like the Doctor saying Rose and Martha have the same skin colour. That would be an error of fact that you could not sweep under the rug by saying "Oh, it's science fiction so it's okay if it doesn't make sense."
But we are not talking about "accurate science" here. I often say, on DS and elsewhere, that science fiction can have "fictional science" (warp drive in Star Trek, the TARDIS being bigger on the inside than it is on the outside, etc.). What we are talking about is "bogus logic," and unlike "fictional science," that is NOT acceptable in science fiction or any other kind of drama. When the Doctor says that the Carrionites use words in their science like humans use mathematics in their science, it is just false. I explained why it is false in detail above and I don't know how to explain it any more clearly, other than to say it would be like the Doctor saying Rose and Martha have the same skin colour. That would be an error of fact that you could not sweep under the rug by saying "Oh, it's science fiction so it's okay if it doesn't make sense."
I'm not saying everything should be dismissed with the "it's sci-fi" thing, I'm just saying that, in this case, the concept was what was important. It was an interesting idea: words have power, and if used in the right combinations, can effect physical change. I liked the idea, and I liked how it had resonance for the rest of the series.
I'm not saying everything should be dismissed with the "it's sci-fi" thing, I'm just saying that, in this case, the concept was what was important. It was an interesting idea: words have power, and if used in the right combinations, can effect physical change. I liked the idea, and I liked how it had resonance for the rest of the series.
Obviously you will like what you like and I can't change your mind about that, but I am going to say, for the benefit of anybody who will listen to my contention, that the concept you find "interesting" is total crap, and is doubly so SPECIFICALLY in a science fiction context. That words, used in the right combinations, can effect physical change, is not a new idea, not invented by imaginative Doctor Who writers, but is in fact an idea thousands of years old, and it has a name: "magic." Magic goes with science fiction like oil goes with water. It is the absolute negation of science and science fiction. It is "fantasy," and thus fits perfectly fine in things like Lord Of The Rings or Buffy The Vampire Slayer. To the extent that Doctor Who's producers have allowed magic into their fictional universe, they have undermined the show in every possible way, even to the degree that it might be silly to even call the programme "science fiction" any more. We might as well just start calling the Time Lords "gods" instead of aliens.
Obviously you will like what you like and I can't change your mind about that, but I am going to say, for the benefit of anybody who will listen to my contention, that the concept you find "interesting" is total crap, and is doubly so SPECIFICALLY in a science fiction context. That words, used in the right combinations, can effect physical change, is not a new idea, not invented by imaginative Doctor Who writers, but is in fact an idea thousands of years old, and it has a name: "magic." Magic goes with science fiction like oil goes with water. It is the absolute negation of science and science fiction. It is "fantasy," and thus fits perfectly fine in things like Lord Of The Rings or Buffy The Vampire Slayer. To the extent that Doctor Who's producers have allowed magic into their fictional universe, they have undermined the show in every possible way, even to the degree that it might be silly to even call the programme "science fiction" any more. We might as well just start calling the Time Lords "gods" instead of aliens.
Fair enough. There is that old sci-fi staple of advanced science seeming like magic to those who don't understand it, and I thought that the Carrionite 'science' could be viewed on those terms rather than as 'magic'. I understand why you don't like it.
On the Time Lords as gods front, while the show is not saying that the Doctor actually IS a god, they're certainly drawing that analogy.
Fair enough. There is that old sci-fi staple of advanced science seeming like magic to those who don't understand it, and I thought that the Carrionite 'science' could be viewed on those terms rather than as 'magic'. I understand why you don't like it.
On the Time Lords as gods front, while the show is not saying that the Doctor actually IS a god, they're certainly drawing that analogy.
IIRC didn't the Face of Boe aka Jack refer to The Doctor as a 'God' in New Earth?
Everybody knows that RDT is a big Buffy The Vampire Slayer fan, and that he has tried to make Doctor Who somewhat like BTVS. I'm not sure that RDT really knows the difference between science fiction and fantasy, or that he cares.
As long as it's a good show, does it really matter if from time to time the lines between sci-fi and sci-fantasy are blurred? The Doctor, while he may seem godlike at times, isn't actually a god, and the audience knows this.
Obviously you will like what you like and I can't change your mind about that, but I am going to say, for the benefit of anybody who will listen to my contention, that the concept you find "interesting" is total crap, and is doubly so SPECIFICALLY in a science fiction context. That words, used in the right combinations, can effect physical change, is not a new idea, not invented by imaginative Doctor Who writers, but is in fact an idea thousands of years old, and it has a name: "magic." Magic goes with science fiction like oil goes with water. It is the absolute negation of science and science fiction. It is "fantasy," and thus fits perfectly fine in things like Lord Of The Rings or Buffy The Vampire Slayer. To the extent that Doctor Who's producers have allowed magic into their fictional universe, they have undermined the show in every possible way, even to the degree that it might be silly to even call the programme "science fiction" any more. We might as well just start calling the Time Lords "gods" instead of aliens.
I guess you've never heard of Clarke's Laws then?
The most famous is the third one.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Btw if you've never seen it I'd avoid the third Doctor episode The Daemons, as that one has what are considered to be black magic rituals as an alien science.
In other words just because we don't do science that way that doesn't mean it's impossible for an alien race to do it that way. That's one of the things that science fiction is about for me, speculating and challenging assumptions.
I guess you've never heard of Clarke's Laws then?
The most famous is the third one.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Btw if you've never seen it I'd avoid the third Doctor episode The Daemons, as that one has what are considered to be black magic rituals as an alien science.
In other words just because we don't do science that way that doesn't mean it's impossible for an alien race to do it that way. That's one of the things that science fiction is about for me, speculating and challenging assumptions.
I guess you've never heard of Clarke's Laws then?
The most famous is the third one.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Btw if you've never seen it I'd avoid the third Doctor episode The Daemons, as that one has what are considered to be black magic rituals as an alien science.
In other words just because we don't do science that way that doesn't mean it's impossible for an alien race to do it that way. That's one of the things that science fiction is about for me, speculating and challenging assumptions.
That quote from Clarke was never meant to be taken literally. Taken literally, its nonsense, but like I said, Clarke meant something different. Clark was suggesting that people don't understand the science behind technology, which is true, so that makes it the equivalent of magic to them. In other words, not understanding the scientific complexities behind the cause-and-effect relationship of flicking a switch on a wall and flooding a dark room with light makes flicking the switch the equivalent of saying "hocus-pocus" and getting light, in a manner of speaking.
I have seen "The Daemons," and it supports MY point. The Doctor, in that story, spent the whole time scoffing at the supernatural and magic. He said that what LOOKED like magic was really science, and that what looked like a supernatural being was really just an alien. I have no problem with that. That is a time-honored theme in science fiction. That theme was also explored in "The Impossible Planet"/"The Satan Pit." Pertwee's Doctor never said anything stupid about the "power of words" being the basis of an alien race's science in the way that math is the basis of ours. In "The Daemons," magic was not the aliens' science, it was just a front that concealed the science.
Comments
If anything isn't new who "Who-Heavy?"
They fit more stories into a season, They fit more action into an episode. In my opinion the pace is a lot faster nowadays.
Completely agree.
But we are not talking about "accurate science" here. I often say, on DS and elsewhere, that science fiction can have "fictional science" (warp drive in Star Trek, the TARDIS being bigger on the inside than it is on the outside, etc.). What we are talking about is "bogus logic," and unlike "fictional science," that is NOT acceptable in science fiction or any other kind of drama. When the Doctor says that the Carrionites use words in their science like humans use mathematics in their science, it is just false. I explained why it is false in detail above and I don't know how to explain it any more clearly, other than to say it would be like the Doctor saying Rose and Martha have the same skin colour. That would be an error of fact that you could not sweep under the rug by saying "Oh, it's science fiction so it's okay if it doesn't make sense."
I'm not saying everything should be dismissed with the "it's sci-fi" thing, I'm just saying that, in this case, the concept was what was important. It was an interesting idea: words have power, and if used in the right combinations, can effect physical change. I liked the idea, and I liked how it had resonance for the rest of the series.
Obviously you will like what you like and I can't change your mind about that, but I am going to say, for the benefit of anybody who will listen to my contention, that the concept you find "interesting" is total crap, and is doubly so SPECIFICALLY in a science fiction context. That words, used in the right combinations, can effect physical change, is not a new idea, not invented by imaginative Doctor Who writers, but is in fact an idea thousands of years old, and it has a name: "magic." Magic goes with science fiction like oil goes with water. It is the absolute negation of science and science fiction. It is "fantasy," and thus fits perfectly fine in things like Lord Of The Rings or Buffy The Vampire Slayer. To the extent that Doctor Who's producers have allowed magic into their fictional universe, they have undermined the show in every possible way, even to the degree that it might be silly to even call the programme "science fiction" any more. We might as well just start calling the Time Lords "gods" instead of aliens.
Fair enough. There is that old sci-fi staple of advanced science seeming like magic to those who don't understand it, and I thought that the Carrionite 'science' could be viewed on those terms rather than as 'magic'. I understand why you don't like it.
On the Time Lords as gods front, while the show is not saying that the Doctor actually IS a god, they're certainly drawing that analogy.
IIRC didn't the Face of Boe aka Jack refer to The Doctor as a 'God' in New Earth?
Yes, either the Face of Boe or Novice Hame referred to him as "the lonely god". In Family of Blood, Tim's description of him was pretty godlike too.
I guess you've never heard of Clarke's Laws then?
The most famous is the third one.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Btw if you've never seen it I'd avoid the third Doctor episode The Daemons, as that one has what are considered to be black magic rituals as an alien science.
In other words just because we don't do science that way that doesn't mean it's impossible for an alien race to do it that way. That's one of the things that science fiction is about for me, speculating and challenging assumptions.
Well put!
That quote from Clarke was never meant to be taken literally. Taken literally, its nonsense, but like I said, Clarke meant something different. Clark was suggesting that people don't understand the science behind technology, which is true, so that makes it the equivalent of magic to them. In other words, not understanding the scientific complexities behind the cause-and-effect relationship of flicking a switch on a wall and flooding a dark room with light makes flicking the switch the equivalent of saying "hocus-pocus" and getting light, in a manner of speaking.
I have seen "The Daemons," and it supports MY point. The Doctor, in that story, spent the whole time scoffing at the supernatural and magic. He said that what LOOKED like magic was really science, and that what looked like a supernatural being was really just an alien. I have no problem with that. That is a time-honored theme in science fiction. That theme was also explored in "The Impossible Planet"/"The Satan Pit." Pertwee's Doctor never said anything stupid about the "power of words" being the basis of an alien race's science in the way that math is the basis of ours. In "The Daemons," magic was not the aliens' science, it was just a front that concealed the science.