Fixed Point in Time Clarification

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  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 30
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    Was it established that the Teselecta has access to all of recorded history from the beginning of the universe to its end? That would put them at least on an equal power footing to the Timelords, an impression I never got. Or more likely, do they have databanks of recorded history up to the point of time the machine was sent out on its mission?

    Here's my take on it. In Let's Kill Hitler, the crew are reacting to the information they have at hand. The databanks aren't a sentient all-seeing thing, they're just a composite of information that's been collated up to that point. Records say the Doctor died in 2011 because that's what everyone at the time believed, that's how it looked to everyone who saw it. By whichever century the Teselecta comes from, that information hasn't changed. No-one has thought to themselves, "Hmm, you know I'm not so sure that was the real Doctor, it could have been some sort of lookalike designed to fool everyone." Or if they have, they've been dismissed as paranoid conspiracy theorists.

    By the time the crew meet the Doctor again, he explains his plan to them. And it doesn't contradict history in any way. I say again, the only reason "The Doctor dies on the 22nd April 2011" is in the records is because of what everyone saw and what made it into the official casefiles of the time, not because Time itself is actually some kind of aware being that directly told them this.

    Records can be wrong, even ones made in 2011. Current historians constantly revise what we know of past centuries because of new sources of information coming to light, or new ways of interpreting existing sources. I don't see that changing by the Teselecta's century. It's obvious the crew hold the Doctor in high regard, so if it looks like there's a way out without changing what's recorded, I think they'd take it. Which they did. Their understanding of fixed points was that this event or at least the event as recorded by history had to be unaltered. As far as 'history' is concerned (by those who wrote it), it hasn't been altered. Someone mentioned the explosion in The Doctor Dances which was a good example. History recorded the explosion and what was thought to be the cause. The Doctor ensured the explosion happened, it just didn't happen in the way everyone thought it did and what made it into the records of the time. The classic series played with this numerous times too. History doesn't record that the Great Fire of London was started by an overloaded alien weapon, but that's what really happened in the DW universe.

    In Let's Kill Hitler, the crew weren't aware of their own future, otherwise they'd have known they were going to get the year wrong before they did it. So it's seems fair that they didn't know the dead Doctor would turn out to be their own Teselecta until the Doctor brought it up.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 204
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    The Tesselecta crew from LKH were from earlier on in the timeline to the ones in WORS.
    They became the Doctor from their records
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 101
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    El Medico wrote: »
    I get that, but the Doctor, our flesh and blood Time Lord Doctor is still alive. This means that time itself was fooled by a robot Doctor.

    Why didn't he just take a photo of himself and burn that instead? It would have saved time and effort.

    The fixed point required him to be there for the death, that is why the photo wouldn't work. He was inside the Tesselector as it was shot and obviously left in the Tardis. Apparently that was enough for the Universe. And the fixed point was the Tesselector dies so the doctor won't make such a big splash anymore...
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 101
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    nattoyaki wrote: »
    1) because the body WASN'T burned (to paraphrase from my poor memory, but it was nothing more than this I'm certain - 'I barely got warm when they 'burnt' 'the body'). Any onlooker would have seen that, and the Silence, certainly, would never have missed it.

    Not necessarily. The BODY was burnt. The doctor and the tardis were both in the Tesselector. As soon as the burning got serious he used the Tardis and no one was any the wiser. No one saw him.
    nattoyaki wrote: »
    2) The 'minituarized cross people' wouldn't have assumed it because they have access to all of history (or at least the part the Doctor is involved in now, as established in LKH). They had the date and time of his certain death. Not their machine's (which, without further explanation in the show, they would have known already, anyway). His.

    It was recorded that the Doctor died at that time. There was no body to check it was the real doctor. And if they had known they would not have gone after River and then offer to do this thing. It had to happen!
  • Digital SidDigital Sid Posts: 39,870
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    Wizartar wrote: »
    it was the Teselecta... still doesn't answer why he was messing with Time at the start of the season 6!

    Was it the tesselecta on the TV at the beginning?
  • johnnysaucepnjohnnysaucepn Posts: 6,775
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    Wizartar wrote: »
    it was the Teselecta... still doesn't answer why he was messing with Time at the start of the season 6!

    Because that's what he does. He makes himself conspicuous and noticeable by messing around in Time. That's the lesson he had to learn - why he has to step back into the shadows.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 437
    Forum Member
    Time didn't record the Doctor dying, various races did. The fixed point was always the Teselector being shot & everyone assumed the Doctor had died, so that's what they recorded as having happened! I'm actually happy with it (so much better than hitting a reset button).

    Must admit I was still waiting for a new 'big bad' to appear somewhere...!
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 145
    Forum Member
    It was just the event that was fixed, not the Doctor's death. We just misunderstood it all, as did the Doctor. Hence the "is there anything else we can do for you?" *he walks away looking grim, and then, lightbulb moment* "AHA! Yes, there is actually"

    History recorded the Teselector being shot, it just so happened it looked like the Doctor at the time. Like I said, it wasn't the Doctor's death that was fixed, it was the event in general.
  • kittykat23ukkittykat23uk Posts: 40
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    I like to think that the crew, knowing what role the would then play in the bait and switch would just cover up their involvement, knowing that the fixed point has to be preserved.

    But, what I don't understand is that definition of "fixed point in time". From what I understood of the plot, the motivation for killing the Doctor is what will happen "On the fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the Eleventh, when no living creature may speak falsely or fail to give answer, a question will be asked. A question that must never, ever be answered." "Silence must fall- the Doctor's silence". The Silence are determined that the question must never be answered. The Doctor must never reach Trenzalore. Which implies that in the original history/future, that he did reach Trenzalore and was asked the question and that really bad stuff happened. We learn that the Silence deliberatly chose lake Silencio as the perfect place to create a fixed point in time. But if there was alway an alternate future without their interference, how is a fixed point created in these circumstances?

    We also hear that the silents are supposed to be preservers of order or time or something. This raises the question whether something else is trying to manipulate the Doctor's timeline to drive him towards his date with Trenzalore.
  • MinkytheDogMinkytheDog Posts: 5,658
    Forum Member
    I like to think that the crew, knowing what role the would then play in the bait and switch would just cover up their involvement, knowing that the fixed point has to be preserved.

    But, what I don't understand is that definition of "fixed point in time". From what I understood of the plot, the motivation for killing the Doctor is what will happen "On the fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the Eleventh, when no living creature may speak falsely or fail to give answer, a question will be asked. A question that must never, ever be answered." "Silence must fall- the Doctor's silence". The Silence are determined that the question must never be answered. The Doctor must never reach Trenzalore. Which implies that in the original history/future, that he did reach Trenzalore and was asked the question and that really bad stuff happened. We learn that the Silence deliberatly chose lake Silencio as the perfect place to create a fixed point in time. But if there was alway an alternate future without their interference, how is a fixed point created in these circumstances?

    We also hear that the silents are supposed to be preservers of order or time or something. This raises the question whether something else is trying to manipulate the Doctor's timeline to drive him towards his date with Trenzalore.

    I'm hoping that the other big change for next year is that they'll drop the idea that every badguy knows what the Doctor will do in his future.

    Apart from it constantly leaving the Doctor playing catch-up, it beggars belief that the likes of the Daleks or Silence wouldn't have checked that same future info to see what was going to happen to them - and either tried to change that (and break the universe within about 5 minutes) or they'd at least know exactly what he's going to do each time they meet him.

    Touchwood - they don't know what will happen when he speaks - they just want to make sure he doesn't (like the Alliance getting their wires crossed about who was flying the Tardis).
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