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Has the Dream Lord returned?
MinkytheDog
Posts: 5,658 Forum Member
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A number of disconnected elements point to the possibility that "Missy" is the Dream Lord - last seen in "Amy's Choice".
Start with "Listen".
We have "Rupert" - a scared child - and two older men (Danny and Orson) who appear to be adult versions of that child or his descendants. Rupert was too afraid to go to bed and dream - but he had toys including a "soldier who doesn't need a gun" and what appeared to be a robot or spaceman in a bright orange spacesuit. Rupert also decided that the soldier must be a "colonel" cos Clara said it was "in charge".
There are various pointers to "beds" and sleep in that episode - the "bogeyman" lives under the bed, Rupert is scared to even get into his bed and the "bogeyman" appears in or on it. Orson has two beds despite being trapped on a crashed time-ship and both Rupert and Orson are unable to sleep.
In at least two previous 2005+ DW plots - "Fear Her" and "Night Terrors" - we had a "child" (with an "alien" connection) and in both stories, the child's FEAR lead to toys or drawings coming to life. In "Night Terrors", sleep and dreams were especially prominent and in "Fear Her", the child's bedroom was at the centre of her fears.
It's been widely discussed that recent and current plots are very familiar so it's not pulling anything out of mid-air to suggest the possibility that Danny and Orson are really just Rupert's toys brought to life.
Aside from Rupert, we had "half-face" - a cyborg that complained of being too tired cos he'd never been allowed to sleep in years and who may have simply fallen from the balloon-diner if he had fallen asleep.
The main thrust of the plot in "into the Dalek" was that the Dalek had dreams - and it caused the Dalek to act bizarrely. We again had military personal named after colours and the leader was another colonel (note that Clara may have put the idea into Rupert's head that "Pink" could be an "odd" name).
The Dalek's "internal weapon" that erased Gretchen was new to us and did not work like any other Dalek weapon - it appeared to "erase" the victim gradually rather than simply shooting or disintegrating them until there was just dust left. She appeared to be conscious throughout most of that process so it doesn't appear that her life just "blinked out".
Both Gretchen and half-face were shown in gentile settings, meeting with "Missy". "Missy" was over the top and overly-familiar and claimed to have an intimate connection with and knowledge of the Doctor. Her manner was very reminiscent of the Dream Lord as we previously met him and the idea of "heaven" itself can be said to be a dream.
We had an impossible, Hollywood version of a fantasy character living in an impossible Dingly-Dell version of a forest and facing space-faring robots - and the "explanation" for that was ropey at best but it boiled down to "nothing is UNreal.
Since this current series started, we've almost been spoon-fed "dreams" - a T-Rex in London, the lizard woman removing her veil in the street and no-one finds it odd, the Italian restaurant which apparently mixed wealthy and poor diners and had Egyptian obelisks, cyborgs removing eyeballs in the street and no-one noticing, people being shrunk to help repair a day-dreaming Dalek which them becomes "good" (only to prove to be the exact opposite) - and aren't Daleks still supposed to almost entirely extinct - yet we were supposedly seeing a massive war. And meeting Robin Hood only to be told that he's a real person when we KNOW that the Errol Flynn idiot we saw is no more "real" than Santa Claus in a red suit climbing down our chimneys - and now, a psychic steering wheel for the Tardis and the timelock on Gallifrey apparently vanishing just so that Clara can stroke the ickle scardy Doctor's hair - in a barn that she magically recognises from thousands of years in the future. And do I have to mention the "dream scene" of Jenny posing seductively?
Add all of that to the fairly widely commented oddities in the behaviour of the Doctor and Clara - and of Strax become a caricature - along with a generally "odd" tone to the series and settings to date.
Is it possible that the series arc this year is that nothing is real?
What if the "It's the Clara Show" cried aren't completely wrong and what we are seeing is her dream version of life with the new Doctor - caused by her meeting the Dream Lord whilst in the Doctor's Timestream?
It's reasonable to suggest that at least one of the Clara-clones must have come into contact with psychic pollen in there and she's said that she has some memory or knowledge of the experiences of those millions of "Clara-clones" - so it's possible that the effect of psychic pollen leaked into Clara-prime.
"Dreams" certainly does seem to be emerging as a central theme for the series so far - either directly or in reference to sleep or lack of consciousness - so the Dream Lord would seem to be a logical call for Missy at this stage.
Start with "Listen".
We have "Rupert" - a scared child - and two older men (Danny and Orson) who appear to be adult versions of that child or his descendants. Rupert was too afraid to go to bed and dream - but he had toys including a "soldier who doesn't need a gun" and what appeared to be a robot or spaceman in a bright orange spacesuit. Rupert also decided that the soldier must be a "colonel" cos Clara said it was "in charge".
There are various pointers to "beds" and sleep in that episode - the "bogeyman" lives under the bed, Rupert is scared to even get into his bed and the "bogeyman" appears in or on it. Orson has two beds despite being trapped on a crashed time-ship and both Rupert and Orson are unable to sleep.
In at least two previous 2005+ DW plots - "Fear Her" and "Night Terrors" - we had a "child" (with an "alien" connection) and in both stories, the child's FEAR lead to toys or drawings coming to life. In "Night Terrors", sleep and dreams were especially prominent and in "Fear Her", the child's bedroom was at the centre of her fears.
It's been widely discussed that recent and current plots are very familiar so it's not pulling anything out of mid-air to suggest the possibility that Danny and Orson are really just Rupert's toys brought to life.
Aside from Rupert, we had "half-face" - a cyborg that complained of being too tired cos he'd never been allowed to sleep in years and who may have simply fallen from the balloon-diner if he had fallen asleep.
The main thrust of the plot in "into the Dalek" was that the Dalek had dreams - and it caused the Dalek to act bizarrely. We again had military personal named after colours and the leader was another colonel (note that Clara may have put the idea into Rupert's head that "Pink" could be an "odd" name).
The Dalek's "internal weapon" that erased Gretchen was new to us and did not work like any other Dalek weapon - it appeared to "erase" the victim gradually rather than simply shooting or disintegrating them until there was just dust left. She appeared to be conscious throughout most of that process so it doesn't appear that her life just "blinked out".
Both Gretchen and half-face were shown in gentile settings, meeting with "Missy". "Missy" was over the top and overly-familiar and claimed to have an intimate connection with and knowledge of the Doctor. Her manner was very reminiscent of the Dream Lord as we previously met him and the idea of "heaven" itself can be said to be a dream.
We had an impossible, Hollywood version of a fantasy character living in an impossible Dingly-Dell version of a forest and facing space-faring robots - and the "explanation" for that was ropey at best but it boiled down to "nothing is UNreal.
Since this current series started, we've almost been spoon-fed "dreams" - a T-Rex in London, the lizard woman removing her veil in the street and no-one finds it odd, the Italian restaurant which apparently mixed wealthy and poor diners and had Egyptian obelisks, cyborgs removing eyeballs in the street and no-one noticing, people being shrunk to help repair a day-dreaming Dalek which them becomes "good" (only to prove to be the exact opposite) - and aren't Daleks still supposed to almost entirely extinct - yet we were supposedly seeing a massive war. And meeting Robin Hood only to be told that he's a real person when we KNOW that the Errol Flynn idiot we saw is no more "real" than Santa Claus in a red suit climbing down our chimneys - and now, a psychic steering wheel for the Tardis and the timelock on Gallifrey apparently vanishing just so that Clara can stroke the ickle scardy Doctor's hair - in a barn that she magically recognises from thousands of years in the future. And do I have to mention the "dream scene" of Jenny posing seductively?
Add all of that to the fairly widely commented oddities in the behaviour of the Doctor and Clara - and of Strax become a caricature - along with a generally "odd" tone to the series and settings to date.
Is it possible that the series arc this year is that nothing is real?
What if the "It's the Clara Show" cried aren't completely wrong and what we are seeing is her dream version of life with the new Doctor - caused by her meeting the Dream Lord whilst in the Doctor's Timestream?
It's reasonable to suggest that at least one of the Clara-clones must have come into contact with psychic pollen in there and she's said that she has some memory or knowledge of the experiences of those millions of "Clara-clones" - so it's possible that the effect of psychic pollen leaked into Clara-prime.
"Dreams" certainly does seem to be emerging as a central theme for the series so far - either directly or in reference to sleep or lack of consciousness - so the Dream Lord would seem to be a logical call for Missy at this stage.
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The things you use as evidence of a dream theory are at best flimsy or non existent- odd things happen in Doctor Who all the time without people noticing. And the dream scene with Jenny posing? That wasn't a dream.
Given that you automatically argue and disagree with absolutely anything I say as a matter of course, I'll take your predictable response as a sign that my post was really rather good.
And for future reference, the use of quotation marks around "dream scene" - which you conveniently removed when referring to it - indicates that the phrase is not to be taken literally and there is no "let's trash another of Minky's threads" exclusion to that according the available sources relating to grammar and the correct use of punctuation.
I agree, dreams are a theme - more specifically - unachievable dreams.
The androids dream of 'The Promised' - something they never achieve. Some that could arguably be unachievable if you are in the camp that believes it a reference to the afterlife. (I think it's a physical location.)
The sheriff dreams of conquest and is conquered.
Rusty dreams of defeating all Dalek's who have survived more Armageddon than a cockroach could dream of.
The doctor dreams of saving Rusty's sense of beauty and in doing so his good man status, but fails and gives it his own sense of hate towards the Dalek's
Rupert Pink dreams about becoming a soldier without a gun named Danny, but cries when he's asked if he has killed someone.....
The doctor dreams of a hand touching his foot, and is made curious and intrigued about the monsters of the universe and set off to investigate them.......
So rather then fear, I think it about disappointment of not realising your dreams.
I like it - but I'd argue that the "disappointment" was actually a fear of failure and suggest that the characters have each "giving up" in some way rather than risk that failure.
half-face, for example, didn't fail to reach the Promised Land - he "lacked faith" and gave up trying to reach it. The robot knights were - apparently - seeking that same Promised Land but "The Sheriff" (who we can assume was their leader as he could switch the others off) was about to give up on that search and settle for "ruling England".
Oddly enough, that idea is almost exactly halfway between my original idea and yours - cool - and that has just given me an idea for a Moffat style twist.
We - understandably - assumed that "Dream" in "Dream Lord" referred to literal "dreaming" cos of the need to "wake up" in that plot - but it wouldn't take much work to twist that around and no that the "Dream" actually refers to ambitions and "optimism" - cos that was very much the real central elements of "Amy's Choice" - especially Amy and Rory's goals in life.
As for your pointing out of weird thing's which should seem odd but no-one notices, I think you've just noticed weaker parts of the writing where you have thought through those scenes slightly better than the writers themselves.
Not that much "thought" - as in, I haven't sat and planned that all out for days. I was writing a reply to a post in another thread and it struck me that a number of things questioned by me and by others could all be explained in that scenario.
Just to point out - the Dream Lord was the result of "psychic pollen" being trapped in the rotor - according to the Doctor - and I suggested that it's likely that Clara-clones will have come into contact with that same stuff. I should add that we only had the Doctor's word for that "psychic pollen" excuse and we saw the Dream Lord's face in the Tardis console AFTER the psychic pollen had supposedly been removed. It was believed by some at the time that the "Dream Lord" was actually just a manifestation of part of the Doctor's mind or "psyche" and - oddly enough - I suggested that Missy might also be a "projection of his mind" after the first episode.
If the Dream Lord is simply part of a "dark side" of the Doctor's mind, he would have no physical identity and what we saw would just be a "fantasy" of the Doctor's creation. You could certainly write a brief explanation saying that his new "mental image" of the Dream Lord was influenced by some of the villains he's met since - there have been several awful woman who dressed in black and wore too much make-up.
As always, I have absolutely no knowledge of anything that hasn't already appeared on TV and am totally "spoiler free". I'm not even remotely saying "this is what is going to happen". (Sad that some regulars here will ignore this paragraph and this thread will be filled with troll-bile and abuse sometime in the next couple of days)
Well your theory seems to cover every angle, so I for one certainly cannot deny it's a possibility as much as anyone else's theory (and more than some). Would imagine though that if they went down the 'part of the doctors psyche' route they would probably present it differently as the dreamlord has sort of 'been done'. What I mean is your theory could be completely correct but maybe the writers think the dreamlord was a while ago now and probably too long for some to remember (and another storyline repeat for those who do) so it's the same thing but presented in a different way. We already know she goes by missy after all. Would expect if she's imagined there would be a reason for the name.
Not really presenting a "theory" - think of it more like "fan fiction inspired by series 8".
Underneath all of that is the idea that nothing we've seen so far is real - it's all a "dream" but one that can kill him (another re-used plot, perhaps - apart from Amy's Choice there's Turn Left, God Complex etc)
I had previously said that I thought they might try a weird twist this year and the fast regeneration following the "extra lives" gave me the idea of showing us what it's like inside the Doctor's head when he's trying to sort his mind out after a regeneration - this could fit with that idea.
I also suggested that they might be doing the entire series roughly as "The Wizard of Oz" - which is basically about someone's dreams as they recover from being hurt. We already have a tin man, a coward and a wicked witch
For a start, it gives fans another "insight" by showing them around "inside the Doctor's head". It's also not a false threat - the idea is that he can and will die in there cos Missy is "real", just not corporeal (same the the earlier Dream Lord).
And cos it's Doctor Who - at least one of the Pink boys can turn out to be totally real and Clara can meet him later in an "have we met before cos I feel like I've always known you" way - then off for kissing and scones.
(You do realise that I might complete change all of this after tonight's episode
Yes and no - he was a part of the Doctor's "psyche" that was "released" as a result of psychic pollen getting trapped in the Tardis' workings.
He's kind of like the little devil/angel versions of themselves that cartoon characters have on their shoulders but "bought to life" by sci-fi blather.
In Amy's Choice, he was more like "The Doctor's Self Doubt" except that rather than being a nagging thought inside in his own head, it came out and got mixed up with Amy's doubts about marriage and Rory's insecurities - creating what was basically an annoying little troll (can't help wondering if that was intentional)