Is R.C. church homophobia acceptable in modern Britian

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  • jamie1992jamie1992 Posts: 354
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    Lizzy11268 wrote: »
    ...I can't forsee a law anytime soon that will force the RC church or indeed any church to marry gay people against their will.
    That being the most likely outcome it might be time for them to just shut the hell up about it.
    Unfortunately - as the victims of fanatical brainwashing - they find themselves unable to do so.
    I'm more interested in the reasons why mainstream media continues to give them a voice, filling airtime and newspaper articles with this stuff (and considerably more so in recent weeks, it would seem).
    There are people out there with equally crazy and unfounded beliefs - for example a movement which believes that dinosaurs never went extinct, but instead evolved into shapeshifting reptoids which - having assumed human form - are now in government, enslaving humanity for their own gain. This never gets any airtime, yet those who believe in the existence of an invisible sky fairy - one which is constantly watching us and becomes angry when two men or two women have intimate relationships - frequently does.
  • mirrorimagemirrorimage Posts: 4,622
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    Lizzy11268 wrote: »
    When gay marriage becomes completely legal, which will happen and I wouldnt be surprised if its soon, then the RC Church will more than likely be allowed an exception as will other religions who do not believe in gay marriage - I can't forsee a law anytime soon that will force the RC church or indeed any church to marry gay people against their will.

    That being the most likely outcome it might be time for them to just shut the hell up about it.

    Of course in my own opinion they SHOULD be forced to follow the law completely and utterly and no exceptions should be made on the basis of religious beliefs - but unfortunately a lot of religious folks are still stuck in the dark ages and a law will need to take into account the needs of as many as possible. So an exception seems the obvious solution.

    I really hope that one day gay people will be able to marry anywhere they choose.

    Do you actually have any understanding of what you are writing or does it just spew forth unabated?

    Whilst in a legal sense, I want to see marriage available to all, what same sex couple with even a modicum of common sense and understanding of the teachings of the catholic church would approach a catholic priest and expect to be married by him? It's a nonsense. You don't expect to join any other club by having them change their basic rules of membership to suit your personal circumstances do you?
  • jamie1992jamie1992 Posts: 354
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    Whilst in a legal sense, I want to see marriage available to all, what same sex couple with even a modicum of common sense and understanding of the teachings of the catholic church would approach a catholic priest and expect to be married by him? It's a nonsense. You don't expect to join any other club by having them change their basic rules of membership to suit your personal circumstances do you?

    You're straying from the topic of this thread, but personally I think that the law ought to disassociate itself from the term "marriage" completely, purely because the word has religious connotations. A civil partnership should be the one and only means by which the pairing of two human beings may be recognised in law - a process which every couple must go through, if they wish to enjoy the legal rights currently associated with marriage.
    Those with religious beliefs may separately go through a marriage ritual in a religious setting, but this would no longer have any legal significance whatsoever.
  • SULLASULLA Posts: 149,789
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    Lizzy11268 wrote: »
    When gay marriage becomes completely legal, which will happen and I wouldnt be surprised if its soon, then the RC Church will more than likely be allowed an exception as will other religions who do not believe in gay marriage - I can't forsee a law anytime soon that will force the RC church or indeed any church to marry gay people against their will.

    Do you want to rephrase that?
  • mirrorimagemirrorimage Posts: 4,622
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    jamie1992 wrote: »
    You're straying from the topic of this thread, but personally I think that the law ought to disassociate itself from the term "marriage" completely, purely because the word has religious connotations. A civil partnership should be the one and only means by which the pairing of two human beings may be recognised in law - a process which every couple must go through, if they wish to enjoy the legal rights currently associated with marriage.
    Those with religious beliefs may separately go through a marriage ritual in a religious setting, but this would no longer have any legal significance whatsoever.

    I was very much on topic jamie as the church's stance on gay marriage is one of the main complaints of opponents who criticise the church of homophobia. I think you've got the definition of marriage arse about face too, it's a legal definition and should be available to anybody who wishes to partake. However, a religious ceremony within the confines of any particular belief cannot with any real conviction be forcibly demanded.
  • Chester666666Chester666666 Posts: 9,020
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    SULLA wrote: »
    GIve me strength:rolleyes::rolleyes:

    you have no empathy at all do you?
  • Chester666666Chester666666 Posts: 9,020
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    Do you actually have any understanding of what you are writing or does it just spew forth unabated?

    Whilst in a legal sense, I want to see marriage available to all, what same sex couple with even a modicum of common sense and understanding of the teachings of the catholic church would approach a catholic priest and expect to be married by him? It's a nonsense. You don't expect to join any other club by having them change their basic rules of membership to suit your personal circumstances do you?

    the homophobes cherry-pick or just believe in the faith without the bigotry
    if you are catholic then I can't see any reason why you shouldn't want to be married
    it's not as if the catholic church has a moral ground anyway
  • Chester666666Chester666666 Posts: 9,020
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    jamie1992 wrote: »
    Lots of Christians have been popping up in the media lately, spreading their mental disease and associated bigotry.
    If this continues, homophobia will become mainstream once again (as it was when I was growing up in the 1990s).

    I think the state ought to intervene and nip this in the bud.
    There is simply no scientific evidence to back up any of these Christian anti-gay claims (nor any of their other claims for that matter!).

    Christians are quite happy to embrace the achievements of science when it comes to spreading their myths - by way of radio, TV and the internet - or (at least where the more sane ones are concerned) treating their physical illnesses by way of modern medicine.
    Why not embrace the achievements of science when it comes to the issue of homosexuality as well?

    exactly
    well said
  • mirrorimagemirrorimage Posts: 4,622
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    the homophobes cherry-pick or just believe in the faith without the bigotry
    if you are catholic then I can't see any reason why you shouldn't want to be married
    it's not as if the catholic church has a moral ground anyway

    Some grammar and coherence might help me understand your post a bit better. :confused:

    But failing that, if a couple is both catholic and gay and want to get married within the faith then they have the same dilemma, because they either don't understand the teachings, or just don't care, making them as equal a cherry-picker as the homophobes you condemn.
  • jamie1992jamie1992 Posts: 354
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    I was very much on topic jamie as the church's stance on gay marriage is one of the main complaints of opponents who criticise the church of homophobia. I think you've got the definition of marriage arse about face too, it's a legal definition and should be available to anybody who wishes to partake. However, a religious ceremony within the confines of any particular belief cannot with any real conviction be forcibly demanded.
    My main complaint in accusing the church of homophobia is their entirely unsubstantiated claim that homosexuality is a disease which is both cureable and sinful. Gays have been talked down to for decades by these people - deluded fools who believe for no valid reason that they are operating on a "higher and more enlightened spiritual level" or similar nonsense.
    If you'd read my post properly you'd also know that I don't have the current legal definition of marriage "arse about face".
  • Chester666666Chester666666 Posts: 9,020
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    Some grammar and coherence might help me understand your post a bit better. :confused:

    But failing that, if a couple is both catholic and gay and want to get married within the faith then they have the same dilemma, because they either don't understand the teachings, or just don't care, making them as equal a cherry-picker as the homophobes you condemn.

    no dilemma
    Homophobia is evil
    besides the bible is mistranslated and misunderstood BS
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 2,053
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    If that is their opinion, then that is their opinion.

    Indeed, according to the Bible homosexuality is wrong so you can hardly expect the Catholic church to change their stance because vocal homosexual groups both here and in Europe have pressured their governments to make us accept their sexual preference despite the fact that many people think it to be totally unnatural. What would the questioner have in mind. Ban the present Catholic church and replace it with a homosexual version.:rolleyes:
  • mirrorimagemirrorimage Posts: 4,622
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    jamie1992 wrote: »
    My main complaint in accusing the church of homophobia is their entirely unsubstantiated claim that homosexuality is a disease which is both cureable and sinful. Gays have been talked down to for decades by these people - deluded fools who believe for no valid reason that they are operating on a "higher and more enlightened spiritual level" or similar nonsense.
    If you'd read my post properly you'd also know that I don't have the current legal definition of marriage "arse about face".

    Homosexual sex is considered sinful, which only means it is contrary to God's law or whatever it is Catholics believe, along with a whole host of other sexual acts the church might teach that people shouldn't really engage in. That said, if you don't believe in that, such a proclamation is meaningless anyway. It's like me telling you you're a naughty person, so won't get any Christmas presents off Santa Claus, and you being completely offended by that (even though you know full well Santa is make believe)

    The arse about face comment was due to your suggestion that "marriage" be detached from a legal definition, due to religious connotation. Marriage is a social and legal contract, so if anything, its relationship with religion is from where it ought to be distanced.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 36,630
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    Indeed, according to the Bible homosexuality is wrong so you can hardly expect the Catholic church to change their stance because vocal homosexual groups both here and in Europe have pressured their governments to make us accept their sexual preference despite the fact that many people think it to be totally unnatural. What would the questioner have in mind. Ban the present Catholic church and replace it with a homosexual version.:rolleyes:

    Where in the bible does it say homosexuality is wrong?.

    (I'll give you a clue, it's been done to death on DS many times).

    Besides, as has already been mentioned, Christians are happy to ignore some of the other things the bible says to do, so why not ignore any passages that seemingly are against homosexuality too?.
  • CharlotteswebCharlottesweb Posts: 18,680
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    Besides, as has already been mentioned, Christians are happy to ignore some of the other things the bible says to do, so why not ignore any passages that seemingly are against homosexuality too?.

    Because organised religion is, was and always has been, about control and forming the world to the will of those that run said religions.

    This is why the koran and bible are as they are, they touch on so many subjects in often vague or contradictory manners they can be used to justify any behaviour at all.
  • Chester666666Chester666666 Posts: 9,020
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    Because organised religion is, was and always has been, about control and forming the world to the will of those that run said religions.

    This is why the koran and bible are as they are, they touch on so many subjects in often vague or contradictory manners they can be used to justify any behaviour at all.

    Exactly
    the bible never condemned homosexuals
    it does condemn heterosexuals
    "homosexual" was a term from 1868 and added in the 50's
  • Chester666666Chester666666 Posts: 9,020
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    Homosexual sex is considered sinful, which only means it is contrary to God's law or whatever it is Catholics believe, along with a whole host of other sexual acts the church might teach that people shouldn't really engage in. That said, if you don't believe in that, such a proclamation is meaningless anyway. It's like me telling you you're a naughty person, so won't get any Christmas presents off Santa Claus, and you being completely offended by that (even though you know full well Santa is make believe)

    The arse about face comment was due to your suggestion that "marriage" be detached from a legal definition, due to religious connotation. Marriage is a social and legal contract, so if anything, its relationship with religion is from where it ought to be distanced.

    when you are young and you hear that you are considered evil due to being gay, lesbian or bi then the stupid homophobic mother-******s do affect you, and that's putting it mildly
  • patsylimerickpatsylimerick Posts: 22,124
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    when you are young and you hear that you are considered evil due to being gay, lesbian or bi then the stupid homophobic mother-******s do affect you, and that's putting it mildly

    The stupid mother-******s also said that I shouldn't ever have sex until I was married. So, once I discovered that I probably wanted to do that, I let the stupid mother-******s to it. Away I went. Clearly, the Catholic Church wasn't for me. It wasn't just the desire for sex, it was also the astonishing misogyny that exists in so many prominent religions yet goes more or less unremarked upon, and the wealth at the head of the Church, and the spectre of child-abuse cover-ups and, probably more than anything else, the beginning of my personal struggle with belief as a concept.

    It's a legal issue - the right to same-sex marriage - and one I support fully. It's got nothing to do with religion and there are religious beliefs all over the world, held firmly by people of all colours and creeds, which repulse me. But, so long as they don't impact upon me and my life, it's got very little to do with me what rules they choose to impose upon themselves.
  • jamie1992jamie1992 Posts: 354
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    Homosexual sex is considered sinful, which only means it is contrary to God's law or whatever it is Catholics believe, along with a whole host of other sexual acts the church might teach that people shouldn't really engage in. That said, if you don't believe in that, such a proclamation is meaningless anyway. It's like me telling you you're a naughty person, so won't get any Christmas presents off Santa Claus, and you being completely offended by that (even though you know full well Santa is make believe)

    The arse about face comment was due to your suggestion that "marriage" be detached from a legal definition, due to religious connotation. Marriage is a social and legal contract, so if anything, its relationship with religion is from where it ought to be distanced.

    I reject the "naughty person" analogy - I think you're trivialising the level of cruelty and hurt involved when an insitution of authority[1] attacks a core component of a person's being which they - with all the will in the world - simply cannot change. Teenagers struggling to come to terms with their sexuality will be particularly hurt.
    The only "choice" is to compromise by training oneself to suppress all feelings of sexual attraction completely and never entering into any sexual relations, or by simply keeping the feelings secret and going through the motions of heterosexual life without ever coming clean, but the emotional damage resulting from either course of action is now widely recognised.

    As I have already said, I do indeed suggest that the legal term "marriage" be replaced with something that does not have religious connotations. The religious folk can then be left to "get on with it" and do whatever they want with their precious "marriage", within the bounds of their little "club" or individual "clubs".

    [1]The church continues to have real, material authority - regardless of whether a person believes its religious myths or not - purely because it is still a powerful institution with many followers and has the ability to influence social attitudes.
  • mirrorimagemirrorimage Posts: 4,622
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    when you are young and you hear that you are considered evil due to being gay, lesbian or bi then the stupid homophobic mother-******s do affect you, and that's putting it mildly

    If you have ever been told you're "evil" by a Catholic for being gay, lesbian or bi then I'm Alan Carr.
  • jamie1992jamie1992 Posts: 354
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    If you have ever been told you're "evil" by a Catholic for being gay, lesbian or bi then I'm Alan Carr.
    I can remember homosexuality being described as "an evil force which is destroying people's lives" by a man featured on (I believe) Granada News in the mid-1990s - that stayed with me for a long time.
  • mirrorimagemirrorimage Posts: 4,622
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    The stupid mother-******s also said that I shouldn't ever have sex until I was married.

    The catholic church does indeed hold a singular view on what sex is all about. That singular idea seems to have been translated into "Caholic church = gay haters"

    I was as equal a sinner in the eyes of the church as a homosexual when I co-habited with my then fiancée before we married. But so what?
  • Chester666666Chester666666 Posts: 9,020
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    jamie1992 wrote: »
    I reject the "naughty person" analogy - I think you're trivialising the level of cruelty and hurt involved when an insitution of authority[1] attacks a core component of a person's being which they - with all the will in the world - simply cannot change. Teenagers struggling to come to terms with their sexuality will be particularly hurt.
    The only "choice" is to compromise by training oneself to suppress all feelings of sexual attraction completely and never entering into any sexual relations, or by simply keeping the feelings secret and going through the motions of heterosexual life without ever coming clean, but the emotional damage resulting from either course of action is now widely recognised.

    As I have already said, I do indeed suggest that the legal term "marriage" be replaced with something that does not have religious connotations. The religious folk can then be left to "get on with it" and do whatever they want with their precious "marriage", within the bounds of their little "club" or individual "clubs".

    [1]The church continues to have real, material authority - regardless of whether a person believes its religious myths or not - purely because it is still a powerful institution with many followers and has the ability to influence social attitudes.
    exactly
    ever since I started paying attention to the media the religious homophobia has always affected social policies
  • Chester666666Chester666666 Posts: 9,020
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    If you have ever been told you're "evil" by a Catholic for being gay, lesbian or bi then I'm Alan Carr.

    then you are Alan Carr
    as that was always widely said so I was always seeing how evil I was, that I'm like a pedophile from religious crazies and media like the daily mail, express
  • mirrorimagemirrorimage Posts: 4,622
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    jamie1992 wrote: »
    I can remember homosexuality being described as "an evil force which is destroying people's lives" by a man featured on (I believe) Granada News in the mid-1990s - that stayed with me for a long time.

    There's always the odd dumb arse. They merely can't get away from their rather restricted ideal equation of:

    (1M + 1F)*marriage (- deliberate hindrances to conception) = children = God Win
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