Actually wrong guess - get Bilsdale much better from my bedroom aerial connected to bedroom PC - can confirm it is BBC Radio Newcastle oddly! DVBDream is reporting thr PID on Emley Moor as 6154 in HEX btw, but the PCR is 3202.
6154 is the Service ID, not a PID and it isn't in hex.
As a rule of thumb, the PCR uses the video stream for TV channels, the audio stream for radio channels or the null packet stream for text / data / off-air channels.
After a lot of faffing around, I've managed to determine that the two hidden streams on Sandy Heath are:
PID 3202 - BBC Radio Norfolk
PID 3502 - BBC Radio Cambridgeshire
I assume this is replicated at Tacolneston, as R Norfolk is an interesting choice otherwise.
Can anyone check Sandy Heath? This should be Radio Cambridgeshre if there is a station there but can someone please confirm with PIDs and SID number
So far we have
Crystal Palace: BBC London 94.9 (APID 3202)
Sutton Coldfield: BBC WM (APID unknown, SID 6149)
Mendip: BBC Radio Bristol (APID unknown)
Winter Hill: BBC Radio Manchester (APID 3202, SID 6152)
Waltham and Nottingham: BBC Radio Nottingham (APID 3302)
Emley Moor: BBC Radio Leeds (APID 3202, SID 6154)
Bilsdale: BBC Radio Newcastle (APID unknown)
Caradon Hill: BBC Radio Devon (APID unknown)
Sandy Heath: BBC Radio Norfolk (APID 3202) and BBC Radio Cambridgeshire (APID 3502)
Can anyone fill in the blanks with the SID numbers for what I have not listed here? Also, does anyone know the SID numbers (Menu ID) for the ones I did not mention? In the list above SID is shown as Menu ID.
(Trying to put together a logical list of SIDs to see if there is anything missing we don't know about!). If you have found these two what are the other numbers in the stream?
further to the earlier post-:
The channel numbers assigned to existing local radio services also indicate an alphabetical ordering of stations from ch.719-722 in each region. Bristol on 719 and WM on 722 show this as a possibility, e.g. Bristol would be the first in the listing of BBC local stations in the West region; WM the last in the West Mids region. It's probably the best way to list them given intense local rivalies and given some of the comments about which stations have been prioritised so far.
This could be taken as an indication that upto 4 local radio stations will be added in each region. Otherwise, the BBC could have just reused 719 and possibly 720, as they have done in the nations.
BBC Local Radio is 96kbps mono*. But could be cut to 80kbps to facilitate more streams, where needed.
*Might make sense to carry current AM opt outs on Freeview as BBC Radio Scotland does on digital platforms north of the border?
Allowing for the fact that some spare capacity needs to be reserved to provide audio description and subtitle services across all streams, if they are all required simultaneously, there is still some slack in the null packets which could be used to add more audio streams. As far as the BBC is concerned, 96kbps is the minimum standard currently used for audio on freeview (other than for audio description). Even the World Service is using 96kbps.
BBC A still has a 128kbps hidden audio stream attached to BBC One on PID 152, carrying a duplicate of the audio stream on PID 102. It serves no useful purpose for the majority of the time, perhaps it could be removed and the capacity reallocated to local radio.
I wonder if Sheffield is transmitting Radio Sheffield? I don't know if that's possible given BBC A is the same from Emley Moor even though it has it's own feed? If I had the right equipment I would check myself.
I wonder if Sheffield is transmitting Radio Sheffield? I don't know if that's possible given BBC A is the same from Emley Moor even though it has it's own feed? If I had the right equipment I would check myself.
I wouldn't have thought so, as with Bilsdale and Pontop Pike, the BBC region is the same for Emley Moor and Sheffield.
In any event, the Sheffield transmitter only covers part of the whole Sheffield area and, editorially, Radio Sheffield also covers Barnsley, Doncaster, Rotherham and the North Midlands, which is all in the Emley Moor footprint.
After a lot of faffing around, I've managed to determine that the two hidden streams on Sandy Heath are:
PID 3202 - BBC Radio Norfolk
PID 3502 - BBC Radio Cambridgeshire
I assume this is replicated at Tacolneston, as R Norfolk is an interesting choice otherwise.
I wouldn't have thought so, as with Bilsdale and Pontop Pike, the BBC region is the same for Emley Moor and Sheffield.
In any event, the Sheffield transmitter only covers part of the whole Sheffield area and, editorially, Radio Sheffield also covers Barnsley, Doncaster, Rotherham and the North Midlands, which is all in the Emley Moor footprint.
Therefore Sheffield may appear on Emley Moor anyway as a second stream. Given there are two from Sandy Heath it is not impossible it may still happen!
Therefore Sheffield may appear on Emley Moor anyway as a second stream. Given there are two from Sandy Heath it is not impossible it may still happen!
As I mentioned in post #106, the BBC appears to have reserved LCNs 719 to 722 for local radio, which would allow up to 4 BBC LR stations per region. The roll-out has been incredibly slow to date, so don't expect everything to appear at once...
After a lot of faffing around, I've managed to determine that the two hidden streams on Sandy Heath are:
PID 3202 - BBC Radio Norfolk
PID 3502 - BBC Radio Cambridgeshire
I assume this is replicated at Tacolneston, as R Norfolk is an interesting choice otherwise.
Indeed, because Sandy Heath is a different BBC sub region to Taccy/Sudbury, because of course Look East has that Cambs opt out.
Therefore, having Norfolk on Sandy is of little benefit, I'd have expected Cambs and 3CR, with Norfolk and Suffolk (or possibly Essex) on Taccy/Sudbury
As I mentioned in post #106, the BBC appears to have reserved LCNs 719 to 722 for local radio, which would allow up to 4 BBC LR stations per region. The roll-out has been incredibly slow to date, so don't expect everything to appear at once...
I don't expect them to all appear at once but given ther are now at least 10 local stations on Freeview around England, and there were only two before December, and three before Monday, the addition of 7 new ones in two days is certainly NOT a slow roll-out.
It is jut a case of when they are given an LCN.
I would spspect any station with PID 3202 gets 719, 3302 720 3402 721 and 3502 722 - but I may be wrong! We'll just have to wait and see.
Any more observations would be welcome
If all goes to plan by area, we should also have
Radio Humberside on Belmont
Radio Solent on Rowridge
Radio Kent on Bluebell Hill and Dover
Radio Jersey (and Guernsey) on Fremont Point
Radio Oxford on Oxford
Any more would be 2nd 3rd or 4th. Given that Radio Nottingham has 3302 instead of 3202, I would suspect Radio Derby, Leicester and Lincolnshire will get the other allocations there. Keep an eye out!
I don't expect them to all appear at once but given ther are now at least 10 local stations on Freeview around England, and there were only two before December, and three before Monday, the addition of 7 new ones in two days is certainly NOT a slow roll-out.
Given that BBC London and BBC WM were added to Freeview in April 2014, NOT December 2014, I would beg to differ. No progress for the 10 months between then and the current additions certainly doesn't give the impression of a speedy roll-out.
Given that Radio Nottingham has 3302 instead of 3202, I would suspect Radio Derby, Leicester and Lincolnshire will get the other allocations there. Keep an eye out!
Why would you expect Lincolnshire to be added to Waltham / Nottingham? Surely Belmont would be the natural choice, it being the transmitter actually serving Lincolnshire.
Given that BBC London and BBC WM were added to Freeview in April 2014, NOT December 2014, I would beg to differ. No progress for the 10 months between then and the current additions certainly doesn't give the impression of a speedy roll-out.
Do you not think that the initial two were some sort of trial or pilot, and now we have a major rollout underway once the pilot had proved itself?
Can anyone check Sandy Heath? This should be Radio Cambridgeshre if there is a station there but can someone please confirm with PIDs and SID number
So far we have
Crystal Palace: BBC London 94.9 (APID 3202)
Sutton Coldfield: BBC WM (APID unknown, SID 6149)
Mendip: BBC Radio Bristol (APID unknown)
Winter Hill: BBC Radio Manchester (APID 3202, SID 6152)
Waltham and Nottingham: BBC Radio Nottingham (APID 3302)
Emley Moor: BBC Radio Leeds (APID 3202, SID 6154)
Bilsdale: BBC Radio Newcastle (APID unknown)
Caradon Hill: BBC Radio Devon (APID unknown)
Sandy Heath: BBC Radio Norfolk (APID 3202) and BBC Radio Cambridgeshire (APID 3502)
Can anyone fill in the blanks with the SID numbers for what I have not listed here? Also, does anyone know the SID numbers (Menu ID) for the ones I did not mention? In the list above SID is shown as Menu ID.
6(Trying to put together a logical list of SIDs to see if there is anything missing we don't know about!). If you have found these two what are the other numbers in the stream?
Why would you expect Lincolnshire to be added to Waltham / Nottingham? Surely Belmont would be the natural choice, it being the transmitter actually serving Lincolnshire.
Waltham and it's dependent relays serve the south of the county including Lincoln and Grantham
Do you not think that the initial two were some sort of trial or pilot, and now we have a major rollout underway once the pilot had proved itself?
Given the absence of any information regarding a pilot and any consultation by the BBC, I would say not. What exactly would have been on trial? there are already many radio channels on freeview, so not a technical trial. There are already regional channels in the nations, so audience / listening patterns would already be known.
Waltham and it's dependent relays serve the south of the county including Lincoln and Grantham
As an overlap perhaps. Both are well within the service area of Belmont which extends well into North Norfolk. After all, historically, Belmont was a relay of Anglia Television.
Indeed, because Sandy Heath is a different BBC sub region to Taccy/Sudbury, because of course Look East has that Cambs opt out.
Therefore, having Norfolk on Sandy is of little benefit, I'd have expected Cambs and 3CR, with Norfolk and Suffolk (or possibly Essex) on Taccy/Sudbury
As most of Northamptonshire is covered by Sandy Heath, where do they stand in this?
Waltham and it's dependent relays serve the south of the county including Lincoln and Grantham
I have a cousin who lives in Grantham. When I visited there the main transmitter received was Waltham. Belmont was receivable but with a dotty picture.
Belmont is a main transmitter for Humberside and North East Lincolnshire - and takes BBC East Yorks & Lincs, and ITV Yorkshire East. (not Anglia!)
I have a cousin who lives in Grantham. When I visited there the main transmitter received was Waltham. Belmont was receivable but with a dotty picture.
Belmont is a main transmitter for Humberside and North East Lincolnshire - and takes BBC East Yorks & Lincs, and ITV Yorkshire East. (not Anglia!)
Perhaps the BBC should rearrange their editorial areas to suit the reception conditions of your cousin with the dotty picture in Grantham? Alas that is not currently how it is arranged. As you have pointed out, as far as the BBC is concerned, East Yorkshire and Lincolnshire are editorially placed within the coverage area of Belmont.
You previously suggested that Lincoln is actually covered by Waltham rather than Belmont. In that case, you would expect the Lincoln relay transmitter to be a relay of Waltham. It is, in fact, a relay of Belmont.
As far as Belmont being a relay of Anglia is concerned, did you not understand the term "historically"? Belmont used to be a transmitter site for Anglia Television many years ago, prior to ITV regions being reorganised and Belmont being reassigned to YTV.
In an attempt to avoid some of the wild speculation regarding which local radio services will appear at which sites, I've compiled a list of the regional transport streams used on BBC A. The list is of the TSID, Editorial Region and Main Transmitter sites:
4161 West (Mendip)
4162 South West & Channel Islands (Fremont Point, Stockland Hill, Caradon Hill, Huntshaw Cross, Redruth)
4163 South (Rowridge, Hannington)
4164 London (Crystal Palace)
4165 West Midlands (Sutton Coldfield, Ridge Hill)
4166 East Midlands (Waltham)
4167 East [Norwich] (Tacolneston)
4168 North West (Winter Hill)
4169 North East & Cumbria (Caldbeck, Pontop Pike, Bilsdale)
4170 Yorkshire (Emley Moor, Sheffield)
4171 Oxford (Oxford/Bexley)
4172 South East (Bluebell Hill, Heathfield)
4173 Cambridge (Sandy Heath)
4175 East Yorkshire & Lincolnshire (Belmont)
To complete the picture, although not really relevant to BBC LR, the situation in the nations is:
4220 Scotland
4221 Northern Ireland
4222 Wales
Attempts to subdivide these transport stream regions, simply to generate a regional fantasy local radio lineup is pointless. The BBC is highly unlikely to re-engineer the BBC A multiplex simply to accommodate fringe coverage of the odd local radio service.
I have a cousin who lives in Grantham. When I visited there the main transmitter received was Waltham. Belmont was receivable but with a dotty picture.
Belmont is a main transmitter for Humberside and North East Lincolnshire - and takes BBC East Yorks & Lincs, and ITV Yorkshire East. (not Anglia!)
Waltham is only a few miles away from Grantham and clearly visible on the high ground to the south west on the way into the town, so it's no surprise it's the primary transmitter for south Lincolnshire (Grantham, Sleaford, Stamford - NG postcode areas) and Belmont is weak in places. Both BBC East Midlands and ITV Central East cover stories from this part of the region, although coverage of stories beyond this area is now very limited compared to recent years. And of course, the Nottingham local mux has a deliberate beam blasting out eastwards across the vast majority of southern Lincolnshire! Grantham is in a dip, so near the centre Belmont is not possible - that's why BBC Lincs has a FM relay serving the area.
Lincoln was previously mixed between BBC East Midlands and ITV Yorkshire (East), this changed in the run-up to digital switchover, as was the case with all such relays that combined feeds from different main transmitters. And it's only been in the last decade that Waltham's role towards Lincolnshire has changed, full power Channel 5 analogue and even greater coverage of Lincs on both the BBC and Central regional opts prior to the Look North (Hull) expansion and the loss of competition between Central and Yorkshire, who prior to being part of the same company had good reasons to compete over Lincolnshire viewers.
On Sky, I believe all of Lincs is mapped to BBC E Yorks & Lincs with a stretch from the Lincs border over the north east Midlands across to the area near Chesterfield being allocated BBC East Midlands and ITV Yorkshire - but you know all about Sky region splits!
BBC Radio Lincolnshire is an odd one, historically it's always carried BBC East Midlands pan-regional radio output; it used to feature on the BBC East Midlands Ceefax pages (Radio listings). It still carries BBC East Midlands late night output - and Saturday night 1800-0000 is simulcast with Derby, Nottingham and Leicester, but the station has also shared content with BBC Humberside in recent years and is increasingly grouped with Yorkshire in the BBC's regional split.
Comments
6154 is the Service ID, not a PID and it isn't in hex.
As a rule of thumb, the PCR uses the video stream for TV channels, the audio stream for radio channels or the null packet stream for text / data / off-air channels.
PID 3202 - BBC Radio Norfolk
PID 3502 - BBC Radio Cambridgeshire
I assume this is replicated at Tacolneston, as R Norfolk is an interesting choice otherwise.
So far we have
Crystal Palace: BBC London 94.9 (APID 3202)
Sutton Coldfield: BBC WM (APID unknown, SID 6149)
Mendip: BBC Radio Bristol (APID unknown)
Winter Hill: BBC Radio Manchester (APID 3202, SID 6152)
Waltham and Nottingham: BBC Radio Nottingham (APID 3302)
Emley Moor: BBC Radio Leeds (APID 3202, SID 6154)
Bilsdale: BBC Radio Newcastle (APID unknown)
Caradon Hill: BBC Radio Devon (APID unknown)
Sandy Heath: BBC Radio Norfolk (APID 3202) and BBC Radio Cambridgeshire (APID 3502)
Can anyone fill in the blanks with the SID numbers for what I have not listed here? Also, does anyone know the SID numbers (Menu ID) for the ones I did not mention? In the list above SID is shown as Menu ID.
(Trying to put together a logical list of SIDs to see if there is anything missing we don't know about!). If you have found these two what are the other numbers in the stream?
Thanks
SID 6210, APID 3302 according to DVB Dream
This could be taken as an indication that upto 4 local radio stations will be added in each region. Otherwise, the BBC could have just reused 719 and possibly 720, as they have done in the nations.
Allowing for the fact that some spare capacity needs to be reserved to provide audio description and subtitle services across all streams, if they are all required simultaneously, there is still some slack in the null packets which could be used to add more audio streams. As far as the BBC is concerned, 96kbps is the minimum standard currently used for audio on freeview (other than for audio description). Even the World Service is using 96kbps.
BBC A still has a 128kbps hidden audio stream attached to BBC One on PID 152, carrying a duplicate of the audio stream on PID 102. It serves no useful purpose for the majority of the time, perhaps it could be removed and the capacity reallocated to local radio.
PMT PID 3200, Audio PID 3202, MHEG PID 3210 & Service ID 6153 for Bilsdale.
See post #89
I wouldn't have thought so, as with Bilsdale and Pontop Pike, the BBC region is the same for Emley Moor and Sheffield.
In any event, the Sheffield transmitter only covers part of the whole Sheffield area and, editorially, Radio Sheffield also covers Barnsley, Doncaster, Rotherham and the North Midlands, which is all in the Emley Moor footprint.
What are the SIDs (Menu IDs) for these two?
Therefore Sheffield may appear on Emley Moor anyway as a second stream. Given there are two from Sandy Heath it is not impossible it may still happen!
As I mentioned in post #106, the BBC appears to have reserved LCNs 719 to 722 for local radio, which would allow up to 4 BBC LR stations per region. The roll-out has been incredibly slow to date, so don't expect everything to appear at once...
Indeed, because Sandy Heath is a different BBC sub region to Taccy/Sudbury, because of course Look East has that Cambs opt out.
Therefore, having Norfolk on Sandy is of little benefit, I'd have expected Cambs and 3CR, with Norfolk and Suffolk (or possibly Essex) on Taccy/Sudbury
I don't expect them to all appear at once but given ther are now at least 10 local stations on Freeview around England, and there were only two before December, and three before Monday, the addition of 7 new ones in two days is certainly NOT a slow roll-out.
It is jut a case of when they are given an LCN.
I would spspect any station with PID 3202 gets 719, 3302 720 3402 721 and 3502 722 - but I may be wrong! We'll just have to wait and see.
Any more observations would be welcome
If all goes to plan by area, we should also have
Radio Humberside on Belmont
Radio Solent on Rowridge
Radio Kent on Bluebell Hill and Dover
Radio Jersey (and Guernsey) on Fremont Point
Radio Oxford on Oxford
Any more would be 2nd 3rd or 4th. Given that Radio Nottingham has 3302 instead of 3202, I would suspect Radio Derby, Leicester and Lincolnshire will get the other allocations there. Keep an eye out!
Given that BBC London and BBC WM were added to Freeview in April 2014, NOT December 2014, I would beg to differ. No progress for the 10 months between then and the current additions certainly doesn't give the impression of a speedy roll-out.
Why would you expect Lincolnshire to be added to Waltham / Nottingham? Surely Belmont would be the natural choice, it being the transmitter actually serving Lincolnshire.
Do you not think that the initial two were some sort of trial or pilot, and now we have a major rollout underway once the pilot had proved itself?
Waltham and it's dependent relays serve the south of the county including Lincoln and Grantham
Given the absence of any information regarding a pilot and any consultation by the BBC, I would say not. What exactly would have been on trial? there are already many radio channels on freeview, so not a technical trial. There are already regional channels in the nations, so audience / listening patterns would already be known.
As an overlap perhaps. Both are well within the service area of Belmont which extends well into North Norfolk. After all, historically, Belmont was a relay of Anglia Television.
As most of Northamptonshire is covered by Sandy Heath, where do they stand in this?
Remember the two that are there now have PIDs 3202 and 3502. I would imagine it will either be on 3302 or 3402 - those two we don't know about yet.
I have a cousin who lives in Grantham. When I visited there the main transmitter received was Waltham. Belmont was receivable but with a dotty picture.
Belmont is a main transmitter for Humberside and North East Lincolnshire - and takes BBC East Yorks & Lincs, and ITV Yorkshire East. (not Anglia!)
Perhaps the BBC should rearrange their editorial areas to suit the reception conditions of your cousin with the dotty picture in Grantham? Alas that is not currently how it is arranged. As you have pointed out, as far as the BBC is concerned, East Yorkshire and Lincolnshire are editorially placed within the coverage area of Belmont.
You previously suggested that Lincoln is actually covered by Waltham rather than Belmont. In that case, you would expect the Lincoln relay transmitter to be a relay of Waltham. It is, in fact, a relay of Belmont.
As far as Belmont being a relay of Anglia is concerned, did you not understand the term "historically"? Belmont used to be a transmitter site for Anglia Television many years ago, prior to ITV regions being reorganised and Belmont being reassigned to YTV.
4161 West (Mendip)
4162 South West & Channel Islands (Fremont Point, Stockland Hill, Caradon Hill, Huntshaw Cross, Redruth)
4163 South (Rowridge, Hannington)
4164 London (Crystal Palace)
4165 West Midlands (Sutton Coldfield, Ridge Hill)
4166 East Midlands (Waltham)
4167 East [Norwich] (Tacolneston)
4168 North West (Winter Hill)
4169 North East & Cumbria (Caldbeck, Pontop Pike, Bilsdale)
4170 Yorkshire (Emley Moor, Sheffield)
4171 Oxford (Oxford/Bexley)
4172 South East (Bluebell Hill, Heathfield)
4173 Cambridge (Sandy Heath)
4175 East Yorkshire & Lincolnshire (Belmont)
To complete the picture, although not really relevant to BBC LR, the situation in the nations is:
4220 Scotland
4221 Northern Ireland
4222 Wales
Attempts to subdivide these transport stream regions, simply to generate a regional fantasy local radio lineup is pointless. The BBC is highly unlikely to re-engineer the BBC A multiplex simply to accommodate fringe coverage of the odd local radio service.
Waltham is only a few miles away from Grantham and clearly visible on the high ground to the south west on the way into the town, so it's no surprise it's the primary transmitter for south Lincolnshire (Grantham, Sleaford, Stamford - NG postcode areas) and Belmont is weak in places. Both BBC East Midlands and ITV Central East cover stories from this part of the region, although coverage of stories beyond this area is now very limited compared to recent years. And of course, the Nottingham local mux has a deliberate beam blasting out eastwards across the vast majority of southern Lincolnshire! Grantham is in a dip, so near the centre Belmont is not possible - that's why BBC Lincs has a FM relay serving the area.
Lincoln was previously mixed between BBC East Midlands and ITV Yorkshire (East), this changed in the run-up to digital switchover, as was the case with all such relays that combined feeds from different main transmitters. And it's only been in the last decade that Waltham's role towards Lincolnshire has changed, full power Channel 5 analogue and even greater coverage of Lincs on both the BBC and Central regional opts prior to the Look North (Hull) expansion and the loss of competition between Central and Yorkshire, who prior to being part of the same company had good reasons to compete over Lincolnshire viewers.
On Sky, I believe all of Lincs is mapped to BBC E Yorks & Lincs with a stretch from the Lincs border over the north east Midlands across to the area near Chesterfield being allocated BBC East Midlands and ITV Yorkshire - but you know all about Sky region splits!
BBC Radio Lincolnshire is an odd one, historically it's always carried BBC East Midlands pan-regional radio output; it used to feature on the BBC East Midlands Ceefax pages (Radio listings). It still carries BBC East Midlands late night output - and Saturday night 1800-0000 is simulcast with Derby, Nottingham and Leicester, but the station has also shared content with BBC Humberside in recent years and is increasingly grouped with Yorkshire in the BBC's regional split.