Although Merlin does just seem to do as the Dragon tells him and poison Morgana he is obviously upset and uncomfortable with what he is doing. By this point in the story both he and Arthur have realised that they are beginning to succumb to the spell themselves and they have exhausted every other option that they can think of culminating in them being trapped in the castle with no way of escape. They know they cannot kill the Knights of Medhir and although it may have been their preferred course of action not to kill Morgana they are desperate and time is running out. Merlin doesn't have time to talk to Morgana and he knows as soon as Arthur goes out to fight the Knights he knows he must act quickly. Looking at it from the writers pov it gives Morgana the perfect motivation for turning against Arthur and Merlin - up to now I think she still cares for Arthur and her hatred is centered on Uther and up until Merlin poisons her I think she could still have gone either way. Merlin's actions almost make her mind up for her with perhaps some final nudging from Morgause when she vanishes with her for 12 months. merlin knows he must sacrifice his friend for the sake of everything and everyone else he holds dear and his destiny.
Great post Missyhoneybee. Perfect argument in every detail.
And here's me waiting for you to kiss me in the style Katie was kissing that girl on Dates the other week ;):p:D
Good lord woman, is Debbie and Jasmine style kissing not enough for you?? :eek: <Grabs star and passionately kisses her in the style of Katie and Gemma.> There, is that better?
If she was entirely innocent, why did she not say something to Arthur when he found her the only person awake in Camelot? Why did she not say Morgause was behind it? I think she was hedging her bets, waiting to see what happened, which makes her pretty morally grey too.
I thought she was terrified for Arthur's safety and the whole situation. I assumed she didn't say anything because she was scared Arthur would discover her magic. Although really, it wasn't her spell so I don't see why she couldn't say Morgause did it to her. No reason for dimwit Arthur to conclude the she had magic from that. But at the time of watching, the feeling I got from Morgana was of being scared, so I thought it was of her magic being discovered. Maybe she was trying to protect Morgause?
I do get why he makes that choice. The reason I think it shows him as behaving badly is that he doesn't try any less extreme options first. Like I said earlier while I wouldn't argue that talking with Morgana would have yielded a different way out I would argue that it would've made Merlin come across as a much better person. I don't think that the fact he was upset about poisoning her is enough to redeem him honestly.
Yes, this is exactly what I think. He was obviously very upset about poisoning Morgana, but to me, it would still only be plausible if he'd tried a couple of other things first, even if they stood little chance of working. He didn't even have an argument with her to find out what she knew and was clearly hiding FFS! The poisoning only works for his character as an absolute last ditch, desperate attempt, and it didn't come across like that to me.
BIB - no, if he was being sensible and simply wanted to stop the "source" of the spell he would have been quick about it and cut her throat instead. Quick and clean.:eek:
*runs away and hides from Star for the next week*
Lem you are a brave, brave woman to say that near Star! But actually you do have a point - if that is what he thought was the only way to save Camelot, and he was prepared to do it, then he should man up and do it properly, and swiftly.
I@ve watched this several times and once the dancing starts I can't find Rupert. Anyone spotted him ? And Eoin is soo funny !!! Look at Tom's hips he should go on Strictly he'd be great at the latin dances !
I couldn't find him either, but thought it was just cos I was watching it on my small phone screen.
Maybe he chooses to listen to the dragon because he has not listened to him in the past and he has seen the consequences of not listening to him! Take Mordred for instance. He does not listen to the dragon when he tells Merlin to kill Mordred in 1:08 because he thinks the boy is an innocent. But then he sees in 2:11 that Mordred is anything but innocent and that actually he has considerable powers. So Merlin begins to understand that the dragon may be right when he tells him to do seemingly harsh things. And so we come to 2:12 and the dragon telling him Morgana must die for the spell to be broken. Does it make more sense for Merlin to listen to him now? I think it does.
Interesting idea, except surely that falls down the minute he next ignores the dragon?
What I was confused by when I first watched (still am) is what exactly Morgause wanted to be the outcome of the spell. Was she just going to kill Uther? Or Uther and Arthur? What was supposed to happen if she achieved that? Did she plan to take over Camelot or just leave it to fall to civil war until a new king was crowned or what? I really don't think they make it very clear.
This is what happens when you try to understand Merlin.
Natarhi, you've posed so many good questions there that I hadn't thought of, I think my brain is going to explode trying to second guess the answers
Great post Missyhoneybee. Perfect argument in every detail.
Thank you Avi
I'm one of those frustrating people who always manages to see both sides of an arguement and I just decide that one side is right and then find myself justifying the other. I'm very indecisive but this situation was Hobson's choice for Merlin. He couldn't do right for doing wrong.
YES I WIN!!! <Kisses star in the style of Debbie and Jasmine> I always knew I was your favourite. You wouldn't put up with anyone else stalking you in the soaps forum.
Although Merlin does just seem to do as the Dragon tells him and poison Morgana he is obviously upset and uncomfortable with what he is doing. By this point in the story both he and Arthur have realised that they are beginning to succumb to the spell themselves and they have exhausted every other option that they can think of culminating in them being trapped in the castle with no way of escape. They know they cannot kill the Knights of Medhir and although it may have been their preferred course of action not to kill Morgana they are desperate and time is running out. Merlin doesn't have time to talk to Morgana and he knows as soon as Arthur goes out to fight the Knights he knows he must act quickly.
By the time Arthur leaves the throne room there is not time to talk to Morgana, but he had time before that. He just chose to spend it fetching poison and trying to get the Knights of Medhir to finish Morgana off instead of talking to her. :mad: Him being upset about it is still not earning him any brownie points with me.
Looking at it from the writers pov it gives Morgana the perfect motivation for turning against Arthur and Merlin - up to now I think she still cares for Arthur and her hatred is centered on Uther and up until Merlin poisons her I think she could still have gone either way. Merlin's actions almost make her mind up for her with perhaps some final nudging from Morgause when she vanishes with her for 12 months. merlin knows he must sacrifice his friend for the sake of everything and everyone else he holds dear and his destiny.
I'd agree with this. The irony, of course, being that Merlin then fails in his destiny rather spectacularly. His poisoning Morgana now is a big factor in her becoming evil, and her become evil is what eventually leads to Arthur's death.
(I can hear star saying "serves him right!" :mad: as I type. :D)
Although Merlin does just seem to do as the Dragon tells him and poison Morgana he is obviously upset and uncomfortable with what he is doing. By this point in the story both he and Arthur have realised that they are beginning to succumb to the spell themselves and they have exhausted every other option that they can think of culminating in them being trapped in the castle with no way of escape. They know they cannot kill the Knights of Medhir and although it may have been their preferred course of action not to kill Morgana they are desperate and time is running out. Merlin doesn't have time to talk to Morgana and he knows as soon as Arthur goes out to fight the Knights he knows he must act quickly. Looking at it from the writers pov it gives Morgana the perfect motivation for turning against Arthur and Merlin - up to now I think she still cares for Arthur and her hatred is centered on Uther and up until Merlin poisons her I think she could still have gone either way. Merlin's actions almost make her mind up for her with perhaps some final nudging from Morgause when she vanishes with her for 12 months. merlin knows he must sacrifice his friend for the sake of everything and everyone else he holds dear and his destiny.
Reading this did make me feel sorry for Merlin. He's in an impossible position because Camelot will be destroyed now or Camelot will be destroyed some time in the future through Morgana turning against him. So he's doomed whatever he does. I haven't watched the episode so I don't know why Morgana survives but if Merlin was going to kill her he should have done the job properly and chosen a more effective form of murder. Weird how he chose poison when he's been poisoned himself and would understand exactly what she was going through, plus he was ill for days so he knew it was going to be a long, drawn out death. That's a bit sadistic! Is there any reason why he poisoned her over doing anything else?
Once I got over feeling sorry for Merlin I remember how if he'd just TOLD THE TRUTH to Morgana about his magic and oh, TOLD THE TRUTH to Arthur about his birth none of it would have happened. :mad: :mad: :mad: Sorry Merlin, but you brought about your own downfall through your sheer stupidity.
I thought she was terrified for Arthur's safety and the whole situation. I assumed she didn't say anything because she was scared Arthur would discover her magic. Although really, it wasn't her spell so I don't see why she couldn't say Morgause did it to her. No reason for dimwit Arthur to conclude the she had magic from that. But at the time of watching, the feeling I got from Morgana was of being scared, so I thought it was of her magic being discovered. Maybe she was trying to protect Morgause?
I thought she came across as exceedingly shifty and untrustworthy and ready to be culled. <Adopts Lem's approach of coming right out and saying exactly what she thinks!>
Yes, this is exactly what I think. He was obviously very upset about poisoning Morgana, but to me, it would still only be plausible if he'd tried a couple of other things first, even if they stood little chance of working. He didn't even have an argument with her to find out what she knew and was clearly hiding FFS! The poisoning only works for his character as an absolute last ditch, desperate attempt, and it didn't come across like that to me.
No, read Missyhoneybee's post. She made a very good argument for why Merlin didn't have time to talk to Morgana. He WAS desperate! It was a last ditch desperate attempt because time was running out for him and Arthur.
Lem you are a brave, brave woman to say that near Star! But actually you do have a point - if that is what he thought was the only way to save Camelot, and he was prepared to do it, then he should man up and do it properly, and swiftly.
Merlin isn't a man of action though, is he? Surely that aspect of this whole episode is in character with who he is. Arthur would have plunged his sword into Morgana, because he is a warrior. Merlin is not used to killing people so he opted for the easier (from the killer's point of view) method of poisoning. Plus it made sense to use poison because he lived with Gaius so knew which one to use (the one with the skull on it Merlin!) and knew where to find it.
Interesting idea, except surely that falls down the minute he next ignores the dragon?
I am not sure exactly when Merlin next ignores the dragon. We would have to know exactly when that was to argue further.
Merlin isn't a man of action though, is he? Surely that aspect of this whole episode is in character with who he is. Arthur would have plunged his sword into Morgana, because he is a warrior. Merlin is not used to killing people so he opted for the easier (from the killer's point of view) method of poisoning. Plus it made sense to use poison because he lived with Gaius so knew which one to use (the one with the skull on it Merlin!) and knew where to find it.
What?! Merlin's practically a one man killing machine! He killed Edwin and Nimueh, and I'm sure there have been others. Yes, they were 'baddies' but he did it and he didn't seem too distressed by it. He could have just blasted Morgana away or whatever he did with them. Anyone with an ounce of common sense would know that being poisoned is a horrible way to die. Oh yeah, except we're talking about Merlin here, he doesn't have any common sense. :rolleyes: If only he'd bumped Uther off when he had the chance. Idiot! (That still doesn't make any sense to me. He's quite happy to kill my poor Edwin who was just avenging his parents but he can't possibly kill a genocidal maniac who's murdered loads of his own people for decades. No, that's completely immoral! :rolleyes: With Edwin, I feel very much like star does over Morgana. I'll never forgive Merlin for killing him. :mad:)
Speaking of Edwin, Smint have you done a Merwin scene in my story? Because if you haven't, I want one!
Yes, this is exactly what I think. He was obviously very upset about poisoning Morgana, but to me, it would still only be plausible if he'd tried a couple of other things first, even if they stood little chance of working. He didn't even have an argument with her to find out what she knew and was clearly hiding FFS! The poisoning only works for his character as an absolute last ditch, desperate attempt, and it didn't come across like that to me.
Exactly! I do find it a very out of character moment.
But actually you do have a point - if that is what he thought was the only way to save Camelot, and he was prepared to do it, then he should man up and do it properly, and swiftly.
Weird how he chose poison when he's been poisoned himself and would understand exactly what she was going through, plus he was ill for days so he knew it was going to be a long, drawn out death. That's a bit sadistic! Is there any reason why he poisoned her over doing anything else?
Yes, because he's a pathetic coward. :mad: Let's face it he could have also killed her with his magic (à la Agravaine) if he didn't want to knife her.
Once I got over feeling sorry for Merlin I remember how if he'd just TOLD THE TRUTH to Morgana about his magic and oh, TOLD THE TRUTH to Arthur about his birth none of it would have happened. :mad: :mad: :mad: Sorry Merlin, but you brought about your own downfall through your sheer stupidity.
Oh star's going to love you for saying that. Hope you're prepared for another kiss.
No, read Missyhoneybee's post. She made a very good argument for why Merlin didn't have time to talk to Morgana. He WAS desperate! It was a last ditch desperate attempt because time was running out for him and Arthur.
I still say he had time. There was all the time when he was getting poison from Gaius's room and they were dragging Uther around. He could have spoken to her.
Merlin is not used to killing people so he opted for the easier (from the killer's point of view) method of poisoning. Plus it made sense to use poison because he lived with Gaius so knew which one to use (the one with the skull on it Merlin!) and knew where to find it.
BIB-Ha!
He could have at least chosen a kinder poison, not one that would lead her to choke/suffocate to death.
What?! Merlin's practically a one man killing machine! He killed Edwin and Nimueh, and I'm sure there have been others. Yes, they were 'baddies' but he did it and he didn't seem too distressed by it. He could have just blasted Morgana away or whatever he did with them. Anyone with an ounce of common sense would know that being poisoned is a horrible way to die. Oh yeah, except we're talking about Merlin here, he doesn't have any common sense. :rolleyes:
Good point. There really was no reason for him not to use his magic.
If only he'd bumped Uther off when he had the chance. Idiot!
He wouldn't even have had to bump him off, Morgause was coming to do that, that was the whole point of the spell! (Or at least a large part of it, we still don't seem able to puzzle out what she was going for entirely, but killing Uther was definitely up there. )
He wouldn't even have had to bump him off, Morgause was coming to do that, that was the whole point of the spell! (Or at least a large part of it, we still don't seem able to puzzle out what she was going for entirely, but killing Uther was definitely up there. )
Well I meant way back in S1 when he saved Uther. If he'd just left him to die, Arthur would have been king, he could have told Arthur the truth about his birth, and magic would have been legal. Would have cut out the next 4 series though.
Good lord woman, is Debbie and Jasmine style kissing not enough for you?? <Grabs star and passionately kisses her in the style of Katie and Gemma.> There, is that better?
Lem you are a brave, brave woman to say that near Star! But actually you do have a point - if that is what he thought was the only way to save Camelot, and he was prepared to do it, then he should man up and do it properly, and swiftly.
It's fine she's forfeited rights to any hugs in the future though :mad:
Oh god, did you have to mention Jasmine Keren? *hugs star and goes to fetch the cheering up chocolate cake and kitten*
Jasmine
I'd agree with this. The irony, of course, being that Merlin then fails in his destiny rather spectacularly. His poisoning Morgana now is a big factor in her becoming evil, and her become evil is what eventually leads to Arthur's death.
(I can hear star saying "serves him right!" :mad: as I type.
Exactly.
And it does serve him right. You can't treat people like that and not expect it to come back and bite you in the arse :mad:
Once I got over feeling sorry for Merlin I remember how if he'd just TOLD THE TRUTH to Morgana about his magic and oh, TOLD THE TRUTH to Arthur about his birth none of it would have happened. Sorry Merlin, but you brought about your own downfall through your sheer stupidity.
Merlin isn't a man of action though, is he? Surely that aspect of this whole episode is in character with who he is. Arthur would have plunged his sword into Morgana, because he is a warrior. Merlin is not used to killing people so he opted for the easier (from the killer's point of view) method of poisoning. Plus it made sense to use poison because he lived with Gaius so knew which one to use (the one with the skull on it Merlin!) and knew where to find it.
B*llshit. Arthur would NEVER have done that. Only Merlin is selfish enough to sacrifice other people's lives for his own gain.
Whilst they were dragging Uther around the castle I don't think that there was time for Merlin to talk to Morgana. Either Arthur was with them or they were running away from the knights dragging Uther which would have made it difficult to have a conversation as they were struggling to move him without Arthur helping them. He could have used magic to kill her but what would he have told Arthur ? He still can't reveal his magic and once they were barricaded in the council chamber he couldn't have blamed the knights as they were all outside fighting Arthur. The same goes for stabbing her or cutting her throat , how does he explain it ? Avi was right he used poison because he knew what he was doing with it and where to find it. But yes he should have told Morgana about his magic when she was struggling with the realisation that she too had magic. I don't think him telling her now would have helped the situation as neither of them would have been able to stop the knights without Morgause so he has to force Morgause to stop them herself.
I agree Arthur would never have killed Morgana himself or stood back and allowed Merlin to do it either so Merlin had to act alone.
He could have used magic to kill her but what would he have told Arthur ? He still can't reveal his magic and once they were barricaded in the council chamber he couldn't have blamed the knights as they were all outside fighting Arthur. The same goes for stabbing her or cutting her throat , how does he explain it ?
But surely the same goes for poison, how would he explain that? "Oh no! I thought this was the water bottle, but it turns out it was the poison bottle! My bad."? "We were making a rope when she suddenly keeled over, probably a heart attack, you know how much greasy food she eats."? "So it seems that antidote that Gaius used has the side effect of sudden death a few hours later. Might have to fire him"? There is no reason that using his magic would have left a mark upon her.
Whilst they were dragging Uther around the castle I don't think that there was time for Merlin to talk to Morgana. Either Arthur was with them or they were running away from the knights dragging Uther which would have made it difficult to have a conversation as they were struggling to move him without Arthur helping them. He could have used magic to kill her but what would he have told Arthur ? He still can't reveal his magic and once they were barricaded in the council chamber he couldn't have blamed the knights as they were all outside fighting Arthur. The same goes for stabbing her or cutting her throat , how does he explain it ? Avi was right he used poison because he knew what he was doing with it and where to find it. But yes he should have told Morgana about his magic when she was struggling with the realisation that she too had magic. I don't think him telling her now would have helped the situation as neither of them would have been able to stop the knights without Morgause so he has to force Morgause to stop them herself.
I agree Arthur would never have killed Morgana himself or stood back and allowed Merlin to do it either so Merlin had to act alone.
If he'd sussed out that Morgana was the source of the spell, and that if she died it would lift the spell (quite an assumption to make, but the sort they correctly make all the time), then that actually makes what he did make a lot more sense.
I've always understood it that Merlin was having to sacrifice Morgana to lift the spell - ie he was having to kill her for it to break - not that he was hoping Morgause would come along and do anything about it.
He traced the magic to its source, Morgana, he had to eliminate the source of magic. I am surprised they (the shitty TPTB) didn't have him trying to knock her unconscious first though to try if that worked and, only then, having him decide he had to poison her.
Thank you Star ! I now feel that I am a legitimate part of the thread. I did always think this but by the time we get to this ep TPTB have alreay decided that its not gonna happen so we have to accept it and review the episode accordingly. However bad the writers made the story or however frustrating the final series became I will always love Merlin as it gave it the wonderful Colin Morgan and the unbelievable Bradley James. I would watch these two in anything just to watch them. I love their banter and comedic scenes and their bromance NO SLASH ! Although I am no averse to reading a little slash but not watching it. The show also gave us the delectable knights Tom, Rupert and Eoin so although the 5th series and the ending in particular was hard to watch and somewhat disappointing we must thank TPTB for their excellent casting decisions. They got the important decisions right at the beginning !!!!!
Although Merlin does just seem to do as the Dragon tells him and poison Morgana he is obviously upset and uncomfortable with what he is doing. By this point in the story both he and Arthur have realised that they are beginning to succumb to the spell themselves and they have exhausted every other option that they can think of culminating in them being trapped in the castle with no way of escape. They know they cannot kill the Knights of Medhir and although it may have been their preferred course of action not to kill Morgana they are desperate and time is running out. Merlin doesn't have time to talk to Morgana and he knows as soon as Arthur goes out to fight the Knights he knows he must act quickly. Looking at it from the writers pov it gives Morgana the perfect motivation for turning against Arthur and Merlin - up to now I think she still cares for Arthur and her hatred is centered on Uther and up until Merlin poisons her I think she could still have gone either way. Merlin's actions almost make her mind up for her with perhaps some final nudging from Morgause when she vanishes with her for 12 months. merlin knows he must sacrifice his friend for the sake of everything and everyone else he holds dear and his destiny.
Great POV missyhoneybee and I think the BIB was exactly what the writers were trying to convey (albeit in a clumsy way). I guess they never expected people like us to argue and debate over the whys and wherefores of all the characters actions.
Well that would have been a far more merciful death than the slow, terrifying, painful poisoning he chose. :mad:
And that is my point. Merlin is in an impossible situation, he cannot do anything without someone being hurt (in his opinion) and he chooses the option of sacrificing a friend for the greater good. However, if he ever did care for Morgana (and I think he did), he should have chosen a quicker and less ghastly method of killing her. But, that would also have screwed up the storyline for the writers so instead they sacrificed all established character traits just to let Merlin be a murdering ******* and get rid of any question of Morgana ever turning good again. Once again, sloppy writing and don't poke the plot holes!
Lem you are a brave, brave woman to say that near Star! But actually you do have a point - if that is what he thought was the only way to save Camelot, and he was prepared to do it, then he should man up and do it properly, and swiftly.
Yes, you get my idea - he should have made it quick and painless for Morgana if he thought that was the only way out.
However, I don't think Star is ever going to forgive me or speak to me again
I thought she came across as exceedingly shifty and untrustworthy and ready to be culled. <Adopts Lem's approach of coming right out and saying exactly what she thinks!>
Warning - it can get you into trouble
<Lem looks around nervously for the hit men that I'm sure Star will have set on me by now>
Merlin isn't a man of action though, is he? Surely that aspect of this whole episode is in character with who he is. Arthur would have plunged his sword into Morgana, because he is a warrior. Merlin is not used to killing people so he opted for the easier (from the killer's point of view) method of poisoning. Plus it made sense to use poison because he lived with Gaius so knew which one to use (the one with the skull on it Merlin!) and knew where to find it.
But Merlin is also a compassionate person so the idea of a slow and painful death by poison would not sit well with him. I still don't think it was in character for him to chose the poison when he could so easily have used magic and then just blamed it on Morgause.
Thank you Star ! I now feel that I am a legitimate part of the thread. I did always think this but by the time we get to this ep TPTB have alreay decided that its not gonna happen so we have to accept it and review the episode accordingly. However bad the writers made the story or however frustrating the final series became I will always love Merlin as it gave it the wonderful Colin Morgan and the unbelievable Bradley James. I would watch these two in anything just to watch them. I love their banter and comedic scenes and their bromance NO SLASH ! Although I am no averse to reading a little slash but not watching it. The show also gave us the delectable knights Tom, Rupert and Eoin so although the 5th series and the ending in particular was hard to watch and somewhat disappointing we must thank TPTB for their excellent casting decisions. They got the important decisions right at the beginning !!!!!
You are most welcome Missy I'm glad you feel that way, everyone who posts here is part of the thread
I agree with everything you have said (except reading slash ). I can argue to the back teeth, in here, about what I'd have preferred to have happened in the show but it doesn't mean I can't watch it and enjoy it. I love Merlin and unlike some in here I can still watch series 5 in enjoyment because it is still Merlin. Yes I wish things were different and yes I moan in here but I still will happily watch any episode of Merlin. (Except 2x03 and 2x12 of course :mad:)
Yes, you get my idea - he should have made it quick and painless for Morgana if he thought that was the only way out.
However, I don't think Star is ever going to forgive me or speak to me again
Of course Star shall still speak to you. Star likes everyone
However she doesn't forgive easily and she certainly doesn't forget :p
Warning - it can get you into trouble
<Lem looks around nervously for the hit men that I'm sure Star will have set on me by now>
Star doesn't have hit men... however she does have a very fiery dragon who is extremely protective of her sorceress
But Merlin is also a compassionate person so the idea of a slow and painful death by poison would not sit well with him. I still don't think it was in character for him to chose the poison when he could so easily have used magic and then just blamed it on Morgause.
Yes, of course he is compassionate, and if the plot just required him to kill Morgana, he would have blasted her to oblivion in one quick hand movement (a la Agravaine). But the plot didn't require him to kill her, it required him to seriously attempt to kill her but leave her alive just long enough for Morgause to come to the rescue and save Morgana and leave Morgana with a hatred of Merlin for ever more. So it had to be something slow and agonising. You know how it is when writing plots Lem! Sometimes you need a very particular circumstance and you have to sacrifice something - character in this case, plausibility in others - to achieve just the right result.
Oh and btw, last night I said something about Arthur would just put a sword through anyone he had to kill and someone (Star?) thought I was speaking specifically of Morgana. I wasn't! I don't think Arthur would have cheerfully put a sword through Morgana at any stage - even in S5 - but if he had to kill someone less close to him, that is how he would do it. IMO. He wouldn't resort to poisoning. Hope that is clearer.
Oh and btw, last night I said something about Arthur would just put a sword through anyone he had to kill and someone (Star?) thought I was speaking specifically of Morgana. I wasn't! I don't think Arthur would have cheerfully put a sword through Morgana at any stage - even in S5 - but if he had to kill someone less close to him, that is how he would do it. IMO. He wouldn't resort to poisoning. Hope that is clearer.
Of course it was me :o
I actually re-read that again this morning and thought oh yes you probably meant it that ^^ way
And that is my point. Merlin is in an impossible situation, he cannot do anything without someone being hurt (in his opinion) and he chooses the option of sacrificing a friend for the greater good. However, if he ever did care for Morgana (and I think he did), he should have chosen a quicker and less ghastly method of killing her. But, that would also have screwed up the storyline for the writers so instead they sacrificed all established character traits just to let Merlin be a murdering ******* and get rid of any question of Morgana ever turning good again. Once again, sloppy writing and don't poke the plot holes!
Agreed. Like I said I understand him coming to the decision that he had to kill her, but I don't understand him doing it without at least trying some other path first.
Yes, of course he is compassionate, and if the plot just required him to kill Morgana, he would have blasted her to oblivion in one quick hand movement (a la Agravaine). But the plot didn't require him to kill her, it required him to seriously attempt to kill her but leave her alive just long enough for Morgause to come to the rescue and save Morgana and leave Morgana with a hatred of Merlin for ever more. So it had to be something slow and agonising. You know how it is when writing plots Lem! Sometimes you need a very particular circumstance and you have to sacrifice something - character in this case, plausibility in others - to achieve just the right result.
I see what you're saying Avi, and I do accept that they needed Morgana to be dying slowly enough to be saved. That is why I really think they should have had Merlin looking for another solution, either to talk to Morgana and see if she could back out of the spell or perhaps to suggest to Arthur that they hide Uther and go after Morgause as she cast the spell. For me it is just too much out of character-ness to have Merlin both decide to kill Morgana without hesitation (by which I mean that while he is upset he doesn't doubt what he is doing) and for that killing to be a slow painful death. That's what I meant when I said the writing was making Merlin look bad.
Oi you :mad: Star is trying to be menacing here and you're ruining it :mad:
Oh and another thing I just wasted time replying to your PM and I couldn't send it because your inbox is full. You said you were sorting it this morning!
I actually re-read that again this morning and thought oh yes you probably meant it that ^^ way
Oh good, I'm glad I didn't come across as completely unhinged. You know how it is when you write things when you are tired, and you can't be bothered to make them make sense? I feel that way most of the time! But I saw your response last night and was too tired to even reply. But it was hanging over me all night. :eek::)
I see what you're saying Avi, and I do accept that they needed Morgana to be dying slowly enough to be saved. That is why I really think they should have had Merlin looking for another solution, either to talk to Morgana and see if she could back out of the spell or perhaps to suggest to Arthur that they hide Uther and go after Morgause as she cast the spell. For me it is just too much out of character-ness to have Merlin both decide to kill Morgana without hesitation (by which I mean that while he is upset he doesn't doubt what he is doing) and for that killing to be a slow painful death. That's what I meant when I said the writing was making Merlin look bad.
BIB But Merlin didn't know Morgause was the source, did he, until she turned up, by which point the knights of Medhir were wreaking havoc and he and Arthur were already succumbing to the spell.
Oh and another thing I just wasted time replying to your PM and I couldn't send it because your inbox is full. You said you were sorting it this morning!
A full inbox, eh? <surveys half empty inbox sadly>
Oh and another thing I just wasted time replying to your PM and I couldn't send it because your inbox is full. You said you were sorting it this morning!
I'm doing it, I'm doing it. I said I would try and sort it this morning. Definitely today is what I said. As it happens I have just cleared space now, so you can send the message. Please? Pretty please?
Comments
Great post Missyhoneybee. Perfect argument in every detail.
Good lord woman, is Debbie and Jasmine style kissing not enough for you?? :eek: <Grabs star and passionately kisses her in the style of Katie and Gemma.> There, is that better?
Yes, this is exactly what I think. He was obviously very upset about poisoning Morgana, but to me, it would still only be plausible if he'd tried a couple of other things first, even if they stood little chance of working. He didn't even have an argument with her to find out what she knew and was clearly hiding FFS! The poisoning only works for his character as an absolute last ditch, desperate attempt, and it didn't come across like that to me.
Lem you are a brave, brave woman to say that near Star!
I couldn't find him either, but thought it was just cos I was watching it on my small phone screen.
Interesting idea, except surely that falls down the minute he next ignores the dragon?
Natarhi, you've posed so many good questions there that I hadn't thought of, I think my brain is going to explode trying to second guess the answers
Thank you Avi
I'm one of those frustrating people who always manages to see both sides of an arguement and I just decide that one side is right and then find myself justifying the other. I'm very indecisive but this situation was Hobson's choice for Merlin. He couldn't do right for doing wrong.
By the time Arthur leaves the throne room there is not time to talk to Morgana, but he had time before that. He just chose to spend it fetching poison and trying to get the Knights of Medhir to finish Morgana off instead of talking to her. :mad: Him being upset about it is still not earning him any brownie points with me.
I'd agree with this. The irony, of course, being that Merlin then fails in his destiny rather spectacularly. His poisoning Morgana now is a big factor in her becoming evil, and her become evil is what eventually leads to Arthur's death.
(I can hear star saying "serves him right!" :mad: as I type.
Reading this did make me feel sorry for Merlin. He's in an impossible position because Camelot will be destroyed now or Camelot will be destroyed some time in the future through Morgana turning against him. So he's doomed whatever he does. I haven't watched the episode so I don't know why Morgana survives but if Merlin was going to kill her he should have done the job properly and chosen a more effective form of murder. Weird how he chose poison when he's been poisoned himself and would understand exactly what she was going through, plus he was ill for days so he knew it was going to be a long, drawn out death. That's a bit sadistic! Is there any reason why he poisoned her over doing anything else?
Once I got over feeling sorry for Merlin I remember how if he'd just TOLD THE TRUTH to Morgana about his magic and oh, TOLD THE TRUTH to Arthur about his birth none of it would have happened. :mad: :mad: :mad: Sorry Merlin, but you brought about your own downfall through your sheer stupidity.
I thought she came across as exceedingly shifty and untrustworthy and ready to be culled. <Adopts Lem's approach of coming right out and saying exactly what she thinks!>
No, read Missyhoneybee's post. She made a very good argument for why Merlin didn't have time to talk to Morgana. He WAS desperate! It was a last ditch desperate attempt because time was running out for him and Arthur.
Merlin isn't a man of action though, is he? Surely that aspect of this whole episode is in character with who he is. Arthur would have plunged his sword into Morgana, because he is a warrior. Merlin is not used to killing people so he opted for the easier (from the killer's point of view) method of poisoning. Plus it made sense to use poison because he lived with Gaius so knew which one to use (the one with the skull on it Merlin!) and knew where to find it.
I am not sure exactly when Merlin next ignores the dragon. We would have to know exactly when that was to argue further.
What?! Merlin's practically a one man killing machine! He killed Edwin and Nimueh, and I'm sure there have been others. Yes, they were 'baddies' but he did it and he didn't seem too distressed by it. He could have just blasted Morgana away or whatever he did with them. Anyone with an ounce of common sense would know that being poisoned is a horrible way to die. Oh yeah, except we're talking about Merlin here, he doesn't have any common sense. :rolleyes: If only he'd bumped Uther off when he had the chance. Idiot! (That still doesn't make any sense to me. He's quite happy to kill my poor Edwin who was just avenging his parents but he can't possibly kill a genocidal maniac who's murdered loads of his own people for decades. No, that's completely immoral! :rolleyes: With Edwin, I feel very much like star does over Morgana. I'll never forgive Merlin for killing him. :mad:)
Speaking of Edwin, Smint have you done a Merwin scene in my story? Because if you haven't, I want one!
He can't, he's a snivelling wimp. :mad:
Sorry. Better stop thinking about it.
Yes, because he's a pathetic coward. :mad: Let's face it he could have also killed her with his magic (à la Agravaine) if he didn't want to knife her.
Oh star's going to love you for saying that. Hope you're prepared for another kiss.
I still say he had time. There was all the time when he was getting poison from Gaius's room and they were dragging Uther around. He could have spoken to her.
BIB-Ha!
He could have at least chosen a kinder poison, not one that would lead her to choke/suffocate to death.
He wouldn't even have had to bump him off, Morgause was coming to do that, that was the whole point of the spell! (Or at least a large part of it, we still don't seem able to puzzle out what she was going for entirely, but killing Uther was definitely up there.
Unless he didn't want to use his magic to kill his friend, which is understandable. But then poison wasn't much of a better option.
Well I meant way back in S1 when he saved Uther. If he'd just left him to die, Arthur would have been king, he could have told Arthur the truth about his birth, and magic would have been legal. Would have cut out the next 4 series though.
And in doing so seals Arthur's fate. Arthur would still be alive if Morgana hadn't been turned against him.
*Stumbles back from kiss dizzy and light headed*
Much better thanks
It's fine she's forfeited rights to any hugs in the future though :mad:
Jasmine
Exactly.
And it does serve him right. You can't treat people like that and not expect it to come back and bite you in the arse :mad:
THIS ^^^^ A THOUSAND TIME THIS!!!! :mad::mad:
Keren I LOVE you
B*llshit. Arthur would NEVER have done that. Only Merlin is selfish enough to sacrifice other people's lives for his own gain.
I agree Arthur would never have killed Morgana himself or stood back and allowed Merlin to do it either so Merlin had to act alone.
YAY *throws arms around missy and hugs her*
I've always understood it that Merlin was having to sacrifice Morgana to lift the spell - ie he was having to kill her for it to break - not that he was hoping Morgause would come along and do anything about it.
He traced the magic to its source, Morgana, he had to eliminate the source of magic. I am surprised they (the shitty TPTB) didn't have him trying to knock her unconscious first though to try if that worked and, only then, having him decide he had to poison her.
Thank you Star ! I now feel that I am a legitimate part of the thread. I did always think this but by the time we get to this ep TPTB have alreay decided that its not gonna happen so we have to accept it and review the episode accordingly. However bad the writers made the story or however frustrating the final series became I will always love Merlin as it gave it the wonderful Colin Morgan and the unbelievable Bradley James. I would watch these two in anything just to watch them. I love their banter and comedic scenes and their bromance NO SLASH ! Although I am no averse to reading a little slash but not watching it. The show also gave us the delectable knights Tom, Rupert and Eoin so although the 5th series and the ending in particular was hard to watch and somewhat disappointing we must thank TPTB for their excellent casting decisions. They got the important decisions right at the beginning !!!!!
Great POV missyhoneybee and I think the BIB was exactly what the writers were trying to convey (albeit in a clumsy way). I guess they never expected people like us to argue and debate over the whys and wherefores of all the characters actions.
And that is my point. Merlin is in an impossible situation, he cannot do anything without someone being hurt (in his opinion) and he chooses the option of sacrificing a friend for the greater good. However, if he ever did care for Morgana (and I think he did), he should have chosen a quicker and less ghastly method of killing her. But, that would also have screwed up the storyline for the writers so instead they sacrificed all established character traits just to let Merlin be a murdering ******* and get rid of any question of Morgana ever turning good again. Once again, sloppy writing and don't poke the plot holes!
Yes, you get my idea - he should have made it quick and painless for Morgana if he thought that was the only way out.
However, I don't think Star is ever going to forgive me or speak to me again
Warning - it can get you into trouble
<Lem looks around nervously for the hit men that I'm sure Star will have set on me by now>
But Merlin is also a compassionate person so the idea of a slow and painful death by poison would not sit well with him. I still don't think it was in character for him to chose the poison when he could so easily have used magic and then just blamed it on Morgause.
You are most welcome Missy
I agree with everything you have said (except reading slash
Of course Star shall still speak to you. Star likes everyone
However she doesn't forgive easily and she certainly doesn't forget
Star doesn't have hit men... however she does have a very fiery dragon who is extremely protective of her sorceress
Yes, of course he is compassionate, and if the plot just required him to kill Morgana, he would have blasted her to oblivion in one quick hand movement (a la Agravaine). But the plot didn't require him to kill her, it required him to seriously attempt to kill her but leave her alive just long enough for Morgause to come to the rescue and save Morgana and leave Morgana with a hatred of Merlin for ever more. So it had to be something slow and agonising. You know how it is when writing plots Lem! Sometimes you need a very particular circumstance and you have to sacrifice something - character in this case, plausibility in others - to achieve just the right result.
Oh and btw, last night I said something about Arthur would just put a sword through anyone he had to kill and someone (Star?) thought I was speaking specifically of Morgana. I wasn't! I don't think Arthur would have cheerfully put a sword through Morgana at any stage - even in S5 - but if he had to kill someone less close to him, that is how he would do it. IMO. He wouldn't resort to poisoning. Hope that is clearer.
Of course it was me
I actually re-read that again this morning and thought oh yes you probably meant it that ^^ way
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Oi you :mad: Star is trying to be menacing here and you're ruining it :mad:
Oh and another thing I just wasted time replying to your PM and I couldn't send it because your inbox is full. You said you were sorting it this morning!
Oh good, I'm glad I didn't come across as completely unhinged. You know how it is when you write things when you are tired, and you can't be bothered to make them make sense? I feel that way most of the time! But I saw your response last night and was too tired to even reply. But it was hanging over me all night. :eek::)
BIB But Merlin didn't know Morgause was the source, did he, until she turned up, by which point the knights of Medhir were wreaking havoc and he and Arthur were already succumbing to the spell.
A full inbox, eh? <surveys half empty inbox sadly>
I'm doing it, I'm doing it. I said I would try and sort it this morning. Definitely today is what I said. As it happens I have just cleared space now, so you can send the message.