If your so distraught about the horse carriages in `Central Park NY`...why aren't you concerned about the horse carriages in the `Royal Parks of London'. Or is it that Liam Neeson has spoke out about the issue.
I did say in post 21 that I don't like the idea of horse-drawn carriages in city centres which would also cover London as it is a city centre. I don't know much about Liam Neeson so I don't really understand what you mean by that.
I'm interested in the responses to PETA on this thread - don't know much about them. What I do know is that they get very, very high profile endorsements from celebrities. How do they manage that when so many seem so dismissive of them?
Who knows what goes through the minds of some people?
The horses are being used not abused.
Bit like police dogs and sniffer dogs.
I think this sums it up beautifully, actually. There's a certain mentality that no animal should undertake any task for a human. It's completely unrealistic and, from my point of view, neither desirable nor logically attainable; unless we all survive on GM superfoods, ban all dairy products, close all zoos, ban all sports involving animals, ban leather, ban resin etc. etc.
I understand the concerns that some have about the traffic in NYC, but three fatalities in a decade seems like a remarkably good record. How many car crashes are there in the city every year?
Pamela Anderson.s Dodge Viper (auctioned to benefit PETA) had a .luxurious leather interior.; Jenna Jameson was photographed fishing, slurping oysters, and wearing a leather jacket just weeks after launching an anti-leather campaign for PETA; Morrissey got an official .okay. from PETA after eating at a steakhouse; Dita von Teese has written about her love of furs and foie gras; Steve-O built a career out of abusing small animals on film; the officially .anti-fur. Eva Mendes often wears fur anyway; and Charlize Theron.s celebrated October 2007 Vogue cover shoot featured several suede garments. In 2008, .Baby Phat. designer Kimora Lee Simmons became a PETA spokesmodel despite working with fur and leather, after making a $20,000 donation to the animal rights group.
........:D
PETA president and co-founder Ingrid Newkirk has described her group.s overall goal as .total animal liberation.. This means the complete abolition of meat, milk, cheese, eggs, honey, zoos, aquariums, circuses, wool, leather, fur, silk, hunting, fishing, and pet ownership
........
PETA activists regularly target children as young as six years old with anti-meat and anti-milk propaganda, even waiting outside their schools to intercept them without notifying their parents. One piece of kid-targeted PETA literature tells small children: .Your Mommy Kills Animals!.
There is no way I would go on one. The horse drawn carriages might have been around for a long time but times have changed. The horses shouldn't have to pull people through New York traffic.
If they're being cared for properly and not being harmed in any way, what exactly is the problem?
Should horse racing be banned too? What about police horses?
Pamela Anderson.s Dodge Viper (auctioned to benefit PETA) had a .luxurious leather interior.; Jenna Jameson was photographed fishing, slurping oysters, and wearing a leather jacket just weeks after launching an anti-leather campaign for PETA; Morrissey got an official .okay. from PETA after eating at a steakhouse; Dita von Teese has written about her love of furs and foie gras; Steve-O built a career out of abusing small animals on film; the officially .anti-fur. Eva Mendes often wears fur anyway; and Charlize Theron.s celebrated October 2007 Vogue cover shoot featured several suede garments. In 2008, .Baby Phat. designer Kimora Lee Simmons became a PETA spokesmodel despite working with fur and leather, after making a $20,000 donation to the animal rights group.
........:D
PETA president and co-founder Ingrid Newkirk has described her group.s overall goal as .total animal liberation.. This means the complete abolition of meat, milk, cheese, eggs, honey, zoos, aquariums, circuses, wool, leather, fur, silk, hunting, fishing, and pet ownership
........
PETA activists regularly target children as young as six years old with anti-meat and anti-milk propaganda, even waiting outside their schools to intercept them without notifying their parents. One piece of kid-targeted PETA literature tells small children: .Your Mommy Kills Animals!.
I wonder if New York would actually be a healthier place if the banned fuel guzzling vehicles and used (relatively) low emission horsedrawn vehicles instead?
When petrol / diesel becomes more scarce, unless electrically powered vehicles improve significantly, the use of horsedrawn vehicles may see a renaissance.
I've been on one of the horse drawn carriages recently. I haven't read the article but when I went we got on literally at the entrance to central park and then just went all around the park - there was no "traffic" around us.
This was admitedly about 4 years ago but I can't imagine that they can't just introduce some safety measures that would mean that it could work?
The campaign for the removal of horse-drawn carriages was going way before PETA got involved in it and there are other groups involved in the campaign. But since PETA became involved because people know what PETA are like all they can focus on is PETA themselves as an organisation rather then the one question - should horse-drawn carriages be banned in New York?
Quite a few of the links on this thread are about PETA as an organisation and about some of their extreme views such as them wanting to ban pet ownership or about celebrities who have spoken out for PETA who have then gone on to do something which has contradicted what they spoke out about. A separate thread entitled something like 'What are your thoughts about PETA?' would make more sense to air those kind of views.
The campaign for the removal of horse-drawn carriages was going way before PETA got involved in it and there are other groups involved in the campaign. But since PETA became involved because people know what PETA are like all they can focus on is PETA themselves as an organisation rather then the one question - should horse-drawn carriages be banned in New York?
Quite a few of the links on this thread are about PETA as an organisation and about some of their extreme views such as them wanting to ban pet ownership or about celebrities who have spoken out for PETA who have then gone on to do something which has contradicted what they spoke out about. A separate thread entitled something like 'What are your thoughts about PETA?' would make more sense to air those kind of views.
BIB: no, not if the animals are looked after properly and not harmed in any way. I'm sure most people have expressed this view, THEN questioned PETA's attempts at taking the moral high ground.
As for police horses they perform a public service and the mounted police officers undergo months of specialised training before being allowed to handle the public. Carriage horses are there for the personal profit of their drivers and they only need to attend a two day course to get the valid licence. I don't see how the two things can be compared.
As for police horses they perform a public service and the mounted police officers undergo months of specialised training before being allowed to handle the public. Carriage horses are there for the personal profit of their drivers and they only need to attend a two day course to get the valid licence. I don't see how the two things can be compared.
Fair enough, but again if the animals aren't being harmed and are being properly cared for, there's absolutely no reason why they should be banned. They are technically performing a public service too, albeit in a somewhat different manner to police horses.
Fair enough, but again if the animals aren't being harmed and are being properly cared for, there's absolutely no reason why they should be banned. They are technically performing a public service too, albeit in a somewhat different manner to police horses.
I guess for me I just feel that what they do in city centres is now obsolete. I can understand why the horses were pulling the carriages through New York City streets 100 years ago because it was a necessity but now it just a case of pulling loads of tourists around congested streets.
The largest stable block which holds most of these horses is a tenement building and doesn't have any outside space. There is no paddock for them to run or even just to graze in. So the horses are either working pulling tourists around or inside the tenement building stables.
I am not against workhorses if there is a need for them but in this case I don't think there is a real need. The mayor wants to replace them with vintage style electric cars and I think it's a good idea. I feel that modern New York with things like the traffic, police and ambulance sirens, tour buses, large crowds, taxis, brightly coloured traffic lights and so on just isn't the right place for horse-drawn carriages any more.
It appears from this article that they are heavily regulated and well taken care of. My experience is that those who actively work with animals build an afinity with them and know a great deal more about them and their needs than rent-a-mob PETA chasers.
You're right, these horses are the drivers livelihood, it's in their own interest to look after them and you do build a bond with a horse you work with.
PETA want to go to Egypt and try that crap seen the horse and carriage ranks in Luxor and they are really sad badly treated beaten and raced
A couple on our cruise got threw out of a carriage that tipped over and had to be flown back to uk on insurance they were so badly injured
As for police horses they perform a public service and the mounted police officers undergo months of specialised training before being allowed to handle the public. Carriage horses are there for the personal profit of their drivers and they only need to attend a two day course to get the valid licence. I don't see how the two things can be compared.
Police horses are the most vulnerable to being attacked by thugs. About the only form of protection they get is a visor. They don't go out patrolling with stab/bullet proof armour that human officers are given to wear. I can also remember a TV show that was on a few years ago that monitored the heart and respiration rates of police horses and they proved that horses can become extremely stressed out while on duty. There are also many countries that will send retired police horses for slaughter.
I will also say that the police use dogs as cannon fodder. They are the ones that are sent into a building first and if there is a threat then the dogs are often the first ones to suffer serious or fatal injuries. I watched an episode of (I think) K9 Cops and an officer featured in it came out and said he would rather a police dog get hurt than a human officer. Some of the other dog handlers pretty much said the same. So, to the police, horses and dogs are just tools.
As for carriage horses. They should NOT operate in cities or busy towns. The air pollution alone should be enough to see them banned. It's one thing to subject ourselves to inhaling noxious exhaust fumes, but it's another thing entirely to subject an animal that hasn't a clue about the risks. That is why I seldom walk my dogs beside a busy road.
"He [Neeson] even goes as far as to question whether the industry is really being threatened because real estate moguls are eyeing up the valuable stables for development."
So it's probably money at the root of all this, and bugger all to do with the animals welfare.
Moguls supporting PETA with generous donations perhaps?
Comments
Bit like police dogs and sniffer dogs.
I did say in post 21 that I don't like the idea of horse-drawn carriages in city centres which would also cover London as it is a city centre. I don't know much about Liam Neeson so I don't really understand what you mean by that.
no pets
no farm animals
no zoos
no working animals
I agree, and I also fully support Liam Neeson's views.
Who knows what goes through the minds of some people?
More about PETA here:
http://www.animalscam.com/peta_7things.php
I think this sums it up beautifully, actually. There's a certain mentality that no animal should undertake any task for a human. It's completely unrealistic and, from my point of view, neither desirable nor logically attainable; unless we all survive on GM superfoods, ban all dairy products, close all zoos, ban all sports involving animals, ban leather, ban resin etc. etc.
I understand the concerns that some have about the traffic in NYC, but three fatalities in a decade seems like a remarkably good record. How many car crashes are there in the city every year?
Pamela Anderson.s Dodge Viper (auctioned to benefit PETA) had a .luxurious leather interior.; Jenna Jameson was photographed fishing, slurping oysters, and wearing a leather jacket just weeks after launching an anti-leather campaign for PETA; Morrissey got an official .okay. from PETA after eating at a steakhouse; Dita von Teese has written about her love of furs and foie gras; Steve-O built a career out of abusing small animals on film; the officially .anti-fur. Eva Mendes often wears fur anyway; and Charlize Theron.s celebrated October 2007 Vogue cover shoot featured several suede garments. In 2008, .Baby Phat. designer Kimora Lee Simmons became a PETA spokesmodel despite working with fur and leather, after making a $20,000 donation to the animal rights group.
........:D
PETA president and co-founder Ingrid Newkirk has described her group.s overall goal as .total animal liberation.. This means the complete abolition of meat, milk, cheese, eggs, honey, zoos, aquariums, circuses, wool, leather, fur, silk, hunting, fishing, and pet ownership
........
PETA activists regularly target children as young as six years old with anti-meat and anti-milk propaganda, even waiting outside their schools to intercept them without notifying their parents. One piece of kid-targeted PETA literature tells small children: .Your Mommy Kills Animals!.
.......>:(
If they're being cared for properly and not being harmed in any way, what exactly is the problem?
Should horse racing be banned too? What about police horses?
Oh good god!
When petrol / diesel becomes more scarce, unless electrically powered vehicles improve significantly, the use of horsedrawn vehicles may see a renaissance.
This was admitedly about 4 years ago but I can't imagine that they can't just introduce some safety measures that would mean that it could work?
Quite a few of the links on this thread are about PETA as an organisation and about some of their extreme views such as them wanting to ban pet ownership or about celebrities who have spoken out for PETA who have then gone on to do something which has contradicted what they spoke out about. A separate thread entitled something like 'What are your thoughts about PETA?' would make more sense to air those kind of views.
BIB: no, not if the animals are looked after properly and not harmed in any way. I'm sure most people have expressed this view, THEN questioned PETA's attempts at taking the moral high ground.
The horses in New York probably need more protection from them than by them.
Fair enough, but again if the animals aren't being harmed and are being properly cared for, there's absolutely no reason why they should be banned. They are technically performing a public service too, albeit in a somewhat different manner to police horses.
I guess for me I just feel that what they do in city centres is now obsolete. I can understand why the horses were pulling the carriages through New York City streets 100 years ago because it was a necessity but now it just a case of pulling loads of tourists around congested streets.
The largest stable block which holds most of these horses is a tenement building and doesn't have any outside space. There is no paddock for them to run or even just to graze in. So the horses are either working pulling tourists around or inside the tenement building stables.
I am not against workhorses if there is a need for them but in this case I don't think there is a real need. The mayor wants to replace them with vintage style electric cars and I think it's a good idea. I feel that modern New York with things like the traffic, police and ambulance sirens, tour buses, large crowds, taxis, brightly coloured traffic lights and so on just isn't the right place for horse-drawn carriages any more.
You're right, these horses are the drivers livelihood, it's in their own interest to look after them and you do build a bond with a horse you work with.
Totally agree
A couple on our cruise got threw out of a carriage that tipped over and had to be flown back to uk on insurance they were so badly injured
Police horses are the most vulnerable to being attacked by thugs. About the only form of protection they get is a visor. They don't go out patrolling with stab/bullet proof armour that human officers are given to wear. I can also remember a TV show that was on a few years ago that monitored the heart and respiration rates of police horses and they proved that horses can become extremely stressed out while on duty. There are also many countries that will send retired police horses for slaughter.
I will also say that the police use dogs as cannon fodder. They are the ones that are sent into a building first and if there is a threat then the dogs are often the first ones to suffer serious or fatal injuries. I watched an episode of (I think) K9 Cops and an officer featured in it came out and said he would rather a police dog get hurt than a human officer. Some of the other dog handlers pretty much said the same. So, to the police, horses and dogs are just tools.
As for carriage horses. They should NOT operate in cities or busy towns. The air pollution alone should be enough to see them banned. It's one thing to subject ourselves to inhaling noxious exhaust fumes, but it's another thing entirely to subject an animal that hasn't a clue about the risks. That is why I seldom walk my dogs beside a busy road.
So it's probably money at the root of all this, and bugger all to do with the animals welfare.
Moguls supporting PETA with generous donations perhaps?