Dispatches: Tricks of the Dole Cheats: Mon 13th

24

Comments

  • SiriusSirius Posts: 4,881
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    I know my local job centre don't have a clue.

    In fairness though in rachymac's case it's not the staff that are the issue. The clue is in the name - Jobseeker's Allowance - not "Have a few weeks off over the summer allowance".

    Benefits are governed by the law, and the law states you have to be looking for work.
  • EraserheadEraserhead Posts: 22,016
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    I've had limited experience with job centres and the few months I had to sign on back in 2008 was a profoundly depressing time. Most of the people milling around in the centre looked, frankly, unemployable and I could see what a difficult job it was for the staff to try to help some people.

    However, I went in as someone skilled and experienced but looking for a career change after being unexpectedly dismissed from my current job (unfairly, but that's another story).

    The centre worker allocated to me was absolutely no help at all. All she was interested in was whether I had been applying for 3 jobs a week and then I got my dole money. I got no help looking for jobs and was simply told to check web sites and newspapers - something I could do without being told by someone who looked as if they'd rather not be working there at all.

    The centre computers had no relevant jobs unless you're a chef, unqualified care worker or fork lift driver.

    So this programme didn't surprise me at all (except for the fact that the Job Centre CEO is Dolores Umbridge).
  • kenny brockellykenny brockelly Posts: 1,243
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    *Donnie* wrote: »
    So not one trick yet then?.

    Yes, why was it called 'Tricks of the dole cheats'?. No doubt the sensationalist tosser presenting chose the title.
  • rachymacrachymac Posts: 1,799
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Sirius wrote: »
    In fairness though in rachymac's case it's not the staff that are the issue. The clue is in the name - Jobseeker's Allowance - not "Have a few weeks off over the summer allowance".

    Benefits are governed by the law, and the law states you have to be looking for work.

    Yes, but in the benefits agreement at my local office they ask you what type of work you are looking for. My benefits agreement states that I agree to look for Teaching and Teaching Assistant jobs up to 90 minutes travel from my home, which I have been doing. Their side of the agreement also states that they will pay you up until the day before you start work. Therefore, they knew I would be applying for jobs in June (when schools do their interviews for jobs starting the next term) and, if I got a job, would not be starting until the end of August.

    I did go at the time and look for another job to keep me going until that job starts, but lets face it, nowhere is going to take you on for a few weeks to then leave again because you have another job. It's not my fault schools don't start til the end of August - I would happily have started work straight away! And I'm still looking, but there are very few jobs in teaching and related areas to apply for at the moment since schools are all closed at the moment, and all have their staff lined up for the next term since it starts in a couple of weeks!

    I have to say, though, mine do actually read the booklets, and are starting to threaten calling up companies that you claim to have applied for jobs with. Not sure that they ever actually will, but at least it might make people actually apply (even if it is with CVs and application letters like the ones on the show!)
  • heikerheiker Posts: 7,029
    Forum Member
    yes so am i.. sick of people [the media] picking on easy targets like the sick and disabled people. not all people out of work are cheats.. they are the minority..

    start picking on the rich for a change..and the tax cheats.

    This programme is not about sick and disabled easy targets, it's clearly about exposing Job Centre Plus as a bunch of incompetents who couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery let alone find jobs for the unemployed.
  • welwynrosewelwynrose Posts: 33,666
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    The people at the job centre aren't recruitment experts
  • wrexham103.4wrexham103.4 Posts: 3,334
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    heiker wrote: »
    This programme is not about sick and disabled easy targets, it's clearly about exposing Job Centre Plus as a bunch of incompetents who couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery let alone find jobs for the unemployed.

    i think you'll find that there is such a tight time scale for the advisor (5 mins, if that a fortnight ) to help anyone find work when they have to fit in so many people in a day, the blame should lie with managers above who have imposed such tight time scales.

    The key is TIME! also all of the 'finding people work bit' has been outsourced to places like A4E, amonsgt other agencies

    and it DOES advertise its own jobs on the the website! .i know many people who have had jobs via the site. this programme is totally misleading
  • heikerheiker Posts: 7,029
    Forum Member
    i think you'll find that there is such a tight time scale for the advisor (5 mins, if that a fortnight ) to help anyone find work when they have to fit in so many people in a day, the blame should lie with managers above who have imposed such tight time scales.

    That goes without saying. I'm talking about the organisation as a whole not individual members of staff.
  • welwynrosewelwynrose Posts: 33,666
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    They should go back to calling them what they really are which is benefit officers
  • SiriusSirius Posts: 4,881
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    rachymac wrote: »
    Yes, but in the benefits agreement at my local office they ask you what type of work you are looking for. My benefits agreement states that I agree to look for Teaching and Teaching Assistant jobs up to 90 minutes travel from my home, which I have been doing. Their side of the agreement also states that they will pay you up until the day before you start work. Therefore, they knew I would be applying for jobs in June (when schools do their interviews for jobs starting the next term) and, if I got a job, would not be starting until the end of August.

    I did go at the time and look for another job to keep me going until that job starts, but lets face it, nowhere is going to take you on for a few weeks to then leave again because you have another job. It's not my fault schools don't start til the end of August - I would happily have started work straight away! And I'm still looking, but there are very few jobs in teaching and related areas to apply for at the moment since schools are all closed at the moment, and all have their staff lined up for the next term since it starts in a couple of weeks!

    I have to say, though, mine do actually read the booklets, and are starting to threaten calling up companies that you claim to have applied for jobs with. Not sure that they ever actually will, but at least it might make people actually apply (even if it is with CVs and application letters like the ones on the show!)

    I agree with some, indeed most, of what you are saying, but it does come down to the law. It's also within the remit of JCP to reduce the number of people on benefits, and they would argue that your job goals were unrealistic for the school holidays and that you should consider alternative forms of employment. So again that is Government driven, not staff driven.

    While it's unrealistic that you and your friend would get temporary positions, especially in the current climate, it's still the rules that are set down in law.
  • wrexham103.4wrexham103.4 Posts: 3,334
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    heiker wrote: »
    That goes without saying. I'm talking about the organisation as a whole not individual members of staff.

    oh i totally agree, front line staff get nothing but impossible targets set from above as do BC staff processing.
  • heikerheiker Posts: 7,029
    Forum Member
    "Boss of Job Centre Plus"....sack the stupid woman. She's been caught out as not being fit for purpose.
  • Louise-annLouise-ann Posts: 1,110
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Well that boss woman didn't have a clue.
  • wrexham103.4wrexham103.4 Posts: 3,334
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    to be fair most places have more than 45 mins to investigate why something is a miss or not right and report back
  • wrexham103.4wrexham103.4 Posts: 3,334
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    welwynrose wrote: »
    The people at the job centre aren't recruitment experts

    exactly this is why the gov pay hundreds of millions of pounds of tax payers money to private companies to 'help' people back in to work, and then they go and F it up (A4E)
  • rachymacrachymac Posts: 1,799
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    The ones in my local office really don't have much of a clue how different things are meant to be processed, as seen on the programme. A lot of it is lack of awareness of the exact procedures to follow, and the exact rules as they stand.

    Example - a friend of mine lives in Northern Ireland, and was invited to an interview day in Dublin for teaching jobs (this was back in June). She went to the Job Centre to enquire about claiming travel to interview costs, and was told that this would be fine - she gave all the details about the interview day, and was given a letter to hand in at the bus station to get her return bus ticket without having to pay for it (the bus company reclaim it straight from the Job Centre). All nice and easy.

    The next week, she went in to sign on and had written in her booklet that she had "attended interview day in Dublin" - the guy in the Job Centre informed her that her benefits would now be stopped because all benefits are stopped if you leave the UK at any time while on them, and she had left the UK by travelling to Dublin. So why did they pay for her bus journey? Why didn't they point this put to her at the time? She had to fight to keep receiving benefits, even though she had the bus tickets to prove she had travelled down one morning nad back the same afternoon - in other words, she was only there for the time of the interview session!

    As they showed in the programme, the big issue here is that staff don't know the rules themselves, or they know them and don't know how to enforce them.
  • heikerheiker Posts: 7,029
    Forum Member
    Louise-ann wrote: »
    Well that boss woman didn't have a clue.

    http://www.civilservice.gov.uk/about/case-studies/ruth-owen

    Ruth Owen: "The vast majority of my career has been in customer service delivery"

    Which basically means she's never done a proper job in her life.
  • rachymacrachymac Posts: 1,799
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Sirius wrote: »
    they would argue that your job goals were unrealistic for the school holidays and that you should consider alternative forms of employment.

    But in that case they shouldn't be:

    a) Saying that you only legally *have* to apply for the two areas of work which you have stated in your agreement, which in mine are Teaching and Teaching Assistant. In our Job Centre (I don't know about others), you sign an agreement which says "I will apply for jobs in the ares of _______ and _________, up to 90 minutes travel from my home." You don't have to look for jobs outside of these two areas(unless you are still unemployed after 13 weeks, at which time you have to add a 3rd category). Therefore, if the school holidays are going to be an issue, they shouldn't be letting people put down two school-based areas of work as the two areas on the form.

    b) Saying at the time that "you will be paid until the day before you start work." I specifically asked at the time did that mean that, if I was offered a job in June, I could return my booklet and keep being paid until the day before I strated work at the end of August. I was told by two different members of staff that yes, that was the case.

    Like I said in my last post, the main issue is that the staff themselves don't know the rules. One member of staff will tell you one thing, you follow what they tell you *to the letter* and then another member of staff comes along and tells you that oh, actually, we're stopping your money now unless you do x, y, z. A friend of mine was in the same situation as me last year and told the Job Centre that she had been offered a job for Setember at the beginning of the summer - the advisor herself actually told her to keep signing in and just lie in her JobSeekers book, cos at least then it looked then like she was looking for work. I could easily have done that (as I'm sure loads of people do), but I trusted that the advisors I had spoken to knew what they were talking about. I think that was my mistake...
  • wrexham103.4wrexham103.4 Posts: 3,334
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    heiker wrote: »
    http://www.civilservice.gov.uk/about/case-studies/ruth-owen

    Ruth Owen: "The vast majority of my career has been in customer service delivery"

    Which basically means she's never done a proper job in her life.

    you only have to look at her wage of £124k a year to realise that all them up to dont have a clue, and dont care about the minions on £16k on the front line!

    https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:Ip4B1P6m2dQJ:www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/dwp-org-charts.pdf+&hl=en&gl=uk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgL8pOay19LGR6ZbGkvQ6X1Bit30o1CgRWWh3olcOCJ60iJUdcfJQqVmKwfCkKfP_EP_BvQzdi4l0myXZkj0LBVcadDz9LJN9b-aTSCiqyafrAQlb1fbUjZZ8y5c1b41Io3I1aY&sig=AHIEtbT0ohbUJVwXuR1eUliZK4vVnxNSAQ&pli=1
  • Granny McSmithGranny McSmith Posts: 19,622
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    People who have been on benefits should be the preferred choice to work in the benefits office since they have the experience.

    When I was signing on I often felt I could do the job better than the Jobcentre staff. I knew more about benefits than they did!
  • d0lphind0lphin Posts: 25,327
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    rachymac wrote: »
    The ones in my local office really don't have much of a clue how different things are meant to be processed, as seen on the programme. A lot of it is lack of awareness of the exact procedures to follow, and the exact rules as they stand.

    Example - a friend of mine lives in Northern Ireland, and was invited to an interview day in Dublin for teaching jobs (this was back in June). She went to the Job Centre to enquire about claiming travel to interview costs, and was told that this would be fine - she gave all the details about the interview day, and was given a letter to hand in at the bus station to get her return bus ticket without having to pay for it (the bus company reclaim it straight from the Job Centre). All nice and easy.

    The next week, she went in to sign on and had written in her booklet that she had "attended interview day in Dublin" - the guy in the Job Centre informed her that her benefits would now be stopped because all benefits are stopped if you leave the UK at any time while on them, and she had left the UK by travelling to Dublin. So why did they pay for her bus journey? Why didn't they point this put to her at the time? She had to fight to keep receiving benefits, even though she had the bus tickets to prove she had travelled down one morning nad back the same afternoon - in other words, she was only there for the time of the interview session!

    As they showed in the programme, the big issue here is that staff don't know the rules themselves, or they know them and don't know how to enforce them.


    It would be laughable if it wasn't true, wouldn't it? Ridiculous, people need to use their common sense.
  • zoepaulpennyzoepaulpenny Posts: 15,951
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    heiker wrote: »
    This programme is not about sick and disabled easy targets, it's clearly about exposing Job Centre Plus as a bunch of incompetents who couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery let alone find jobs for the unemployed.

    yes i did watch it.. and i must say, to the people who do want work. these tossers are a waste of *f***ing time!!
  • ProgRockerProgRocker Posts: 1,325
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    The Job Centre isn't fit for purpose and needs overhauling. The 'alternative' Job Centre set up next door was a good idea.

    As for filling in the booklets with a shopping list or even phantom job applications, the information written in them are checked every so often. Perhaps not every single time you sign on.

    Fortunately, I haven't had to sign on since November 2010 and I am now in a fab job. Hope I never have to set foot in the place again as I felt like one of the interviewees on film - a sense of depression when visiting the place. When I did sign on, I too found that the jobs advertised on the 'user unfriendly' DirectGov website did not appear on the 'Job Points' in the Job Centre. That was absolutely disgraceful!

    Ruth Owen needs to be removed, she really seems to be out of her depth in her current role. Replace this parasite with someone with some fresh ideas and some drive.
  • Mr MertonMr Merton Posts: 477
    Forum Member
    Didn't watch all of this programme but have mixed feelings about what I did see. The promotional trailers were deliberately provocative in order to attract viewers, which is something that I can live with as long as the programme itself was of a sufficiently high quality.

    Sadly the programme was rather messy even if it was well-meaning in places, and programme makers have to realise that a series of 'stunts' can frequently give a misleading impression. Case in point being the benefit claimant dressing up in paint-spattered overalls; if someone attended a Job Centre dressed like that when on previous visits they had dressed in casual or smart clothing, you can't exactly accuse them of doing paid work without additional documentary evidence to back this claim up. (If they say they've been painting at home you've got to believe them.)

    Plus Job Centres can't easily check up on an individual's job applications; frequent checks aren't foolproof and would require extensive communications between Job Centres and companies which may end up annoying those companies in turn with a barrage of unwanted emails/expensive phone calls, wasting the time of all concerned. Also if there's pressure for Job Centres to force claimants into applying for jobs regardless of whether or not they're entirely suitable for them just so as to tick a Jobseeker's Agreement box, then you can't legitimately complain if the employers don't consider them at all.

    (Jobseeker's Agreements are really only there to convince politicians that they aren't paying "benefit scroungers" and serve little practical purpose if there aren't that many suitable jobs available in the marketplace; indeed it encourages lying if there are genuinely few suitable jobs available.)

    It's true though that my recent experience of Job Centres have revealed shocking levels of ignorance, but unless the staff have been properly trained you can never accuse them of doing a poor job.

    Anyway, Jobseeker's Allowance is going to be replaced by Universal Credit which will apparently have more stringent job seeking 'checks', but as always there will be workarounds. Of course the real solution is to ensure that there are enough jobs easily available for everyone in the first place, but that's much more difficult to achieve compared to clamping down on "benefit scroungers".

    So, all things considered, what was that programme good for anyway?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,027
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Yay, more dole bashing.

    Lets hope they give some good advice on how to get your benefits.



    So is it an investigation into the Jobcentre Plus or Dole Cheats?

    More likely than not a hatchet job, where the only agenda was the privatisation of Job Centre Plus. But, on an aside issue, Morland should be commended for negotiating an Unpaid Internship within Channel 4 Despatches. Given time, and additional training, he may even be competent to write copy for the obituary notices.
Sign In or Register to comment.