[Normandie]

Originally Posted by molliepops

With some caveats, we have no right to force our principles/morals onto our pets.

Not sure that is right, if I didn't force my principles and morals onto my dogs one would be killing and maiming dogs/cats/small furries and people !

And, of course, those are likely to be at least some of the caveats...

[bazaar1]

Originally Posted by ribtickle

A collar with bells is said by the RSPB to cut down 50% of garden bird kills. Some people worry the cat will be strangled in trees, but I only ever use the fully elastic nylon collars which expand all round to more than twice their girth, so they're more likely to slip off.

Having a collar means the cat can wear a medallion. Besides being useful if it goes astray this provides a visible identity to a cat which may otherwise be seen as a stray cat by a neighbour only 4 doors away, who starts feeding it until it either moves in with them or hangs out in their garden killing wildlife out of your sight.

Cats, of course, do not like water. I successfully de-trained a prolific birder using a water pistol to chastise him each time he went after a bird. I sat in the garden and squirted him as he crouched down onto his belly to creep up on one or jumped on a fence near one. That and a stern rebuke. It worked with him because he was the type of cat who never went beyond his own garden and the immediate neighbours gardens, so he always thought I'd be on his case.

Similarly my two tabbies used to have the occasional fight in the house, and they'd be chased out with me shouting after them that any injuries incurring vet bills would be taken out of their meat allowance (they didn't understand, but it made 'Daddy' feel a whole lot better). But they soon learned not to fight in my presence, so the fur flew outside instead. They got a jug of water thrown over them, I had it ready by the back door along with my best "paaaack it in!". They stopped fighting.

This is so old school it's ridiculous. It's like hitting your puppy with a rolled up newspaper. The animal associates you with the negative punishment, not the action. All that it's does it's damage your relationship with the animal. If by chance they do associate it with the action you are trying to stop, they will just do it out of your line of sight, again the negative punishment only comes when your around so they associate it with you.

As for throwing water over your cats, why any decent, loving owner would want to distress their cat like that I cannot fathom.

[Sebastian_White]

I am having considerable success with these methods...

He's (crossing the proverbial paws) not killed nowt in days now...

*Oh ye doubters of little faith!

[whoever,hey]

Originally Posted by Aarghawasp!

Interesting...

I'm not convinced cats have the cognitive ability to associate the punishment with the deed. Cat kills rodent, several hours later receives biscuits for breakfast, works out why it hasn't been given meat?

How else do you think cats learn behaviours other than conditioning? Nearly all animals can be conditioned.

[bazaar1]

Originally Posted by whoever,hey

How else do you think cats learn behaviours other than conditioning? Nearly all animals can be conditioned.

Yea, positive reinforcement can train animals, but negative punishment hours after a natural behaviour is pointless.

[ladymoanalot]

I did not take them on to condition them. I took them on because they needed homes. I am not about to start punishing them for doing what is natural to them. I took them on warts and all....... besides which my neighbours are grateful they kill mice and I do not have the time to mess around.

[elliecat]

My parents cats sit on the patio underneath the bird feeders or on the chairs next to the bird feeders, they seem to ignore birds (mice are more their thing) and the birds ignore them. They just sit and watch the birds, my parents have had several families of birds over the years living in the bird boxes and fledging. Not sure why they aren't interested in birds we never did anything to stop them but they live next to a playing field where there are lots of field mice.

[Bedsit Bob]

Originally Posted by Sebastian_White

He's (crossing the proverbial paws) not killed nowt in days now..

That you know of.

[ribtickle]

Originally Posted by bazaar1

This is so old school it's ridiculous. It's like hitting your puppy with a rolled up newspaper. The animal associates you with the negative punishment, not the action. All that it's does it's damage your relationship with the animal. If by chance they do associate it with the action you are trying to stop, they will just do it out of your line of sight, again the negative punishment only comes when your around so they associate it with you.

As for throwing water over your cats, why any decent, loving owner would want to distress their cat like that I cannot fathom.

Any decent, loving cat owner should wish to break up a fight between their cats. It's how you protect them from potentially fatal hidden abscesses, or having their eyes scratched. Whether it's old fashioned or not is debatable, though I'm not sure why anyone should care either way. The only pertinent point is it worked. And it didn't damage my relationship with my cats.

The black death, as I called him, a cat I was ready to rehome on condition he went to a house without a garden, stopped going after the birds and became so attached to me that he would run and leap onto my lap before I'd actually completely sat down. He was a very happy cat who never went further than his own gate. Sadly gone now, due to CRF.

My two tabbies, now 15 and 17, gave up their fighting soon after the water cannon was used for cat dispersal. They're not affectionate with one another, but they will sunbathe together and even eat side-by-side, and will go out and come back in together, whereas before it was separate rooms at feeding time and each cat requiring its own féted entrance and exit.

I've been feeding a neglected, collarless old tom who weighed as much as a packet of crisps last year, was covered in bites, had two abscesses on his throat, one open, one healing, scratches across his nose, his eyes weeping and one usually half shut. I think he lives on the next street, no idea where.

I discovered he was constantly being set by a sort of twin tom cat, possibly originally a litter mate, who seemed to have the upper hand, possibly because it had survived the battle injuries better and remained a heavyweight. The other cat seemed to spend all day hunting him down for another scrap, with this pathetic creature had to assume the en garde position. I chased the other cat away from my garden with water, after several attempts at shouting didn't work, and Dusty, as I call him, was able to use this sanctuary to sunbathe with my neutered cats in the garden, which allowed him to de-stress, and over the course of the past year he's been supplemented with food so that he has put on weight to make a solid cat who can defend himself. There are no more injuries on his face or throat, only a little weeping left in one eye.

So there's 3 happy endings from the intervention of harmless water.

[bazaar1]

Originally Posted by ribtickle

Any decent, loving cat owner should wish to break up a fight between their cats. It's how you protect them from potentially fatal hidden abscesses, or having their eyes scratched. Whether it's old fashioned or not is debatable, though I'm not sure why anyone should care either way. The only pertinent point is it worked. And it didn't damage my relationship with my cats.

The black death, as I called him, a cat I was ready to rehome on condition he went to a house without a garden, stopped going after the birds and became so attached to me that he would run and leap onto my lap before I'd actually completely sat down. He was a very happy cat who never went further than his own gate. Sadly gone now, due to CRF.

My two tabbies, now 15 and 17, gave up their fighting soon after the water cannon was used for cat dispersal. They're not affectionate with one another, but they will sunbathe together and even eat side-by-side, and will go out and come back in together, whereas before it was separate rooms at feeding time and each cat requiring its own féted entrance and exit.

I've been feeding a neglected, collarless old tom who weighed as much as a packet of crisps last year, was covered in bites, had two abscesses on his throat, one open, one healing, scratches across his nose, his eyes weeping and one usually half shut. I think he lives on the next street, no idea where.

I discovered he was constantly being set by a sort of twin tom cat, possibly originally a litter mate, who seemed to have the upper hand, possibly because it had survived the battle injuries better and remained a heavyweight. The other cat seemed to spend all day hunting him down for another scrap, with this pathetic creature had to assume the en garde position. I chased the other cat away from my garden with water, after several attempts at shouting didn't work, and Dusty, as I call him, was able to use this sanctuary to sunbathe with my neutered cats in the garden, which allowed him to de-stress, and over the course of the past year he's been supplemented with food so that he has put on weight to make a solid cat who can defend himself. There are no more injuries on his face or throat, only a little weeping left in one eye.

So there's 3 happy endings from the intervention of harmless water.

You cannot prove in anyway shape or form that it was the water that prevented the fighting in ANY of your examples.
All you can say is that they stopped fighting in your presence, as above this is a common result from negative reinforcement.
You even confirm that your punishment based training altered your cats behaciour towars you. You saw this as a poisitve thing, but if you take a detached, behaviourists view of your cats behavioural change youd see that its more likely to be based upon a need to appease YOU, probably to prevent further punishment. Rhat is why you will often find dogs/cats that have been abused are extra loving, they try to appease their owners for fear of being hurt. Now I appreciate you didn't abuse your cats, I am not suggesting that for a minute but throwing water over them isn't a nice caring act (and a jug of water is VERY different from a small water pistol, which I still disagree with) and has the aim of scaring you cats.

The fact is you used fear of an object (water) to punish your animals. Negative reinforcement is widely viewed as an old fashioned, out dated training technique.

[pugamo]

Why would you want to stop your cat from hunting? It is the most natural thing in the world. I won't leave an animal in distress if I see my cat with it and it can be saved, I take it off the cat, but I would never try to stop my cats from hunting. It would be pointless and counter productive, like not taking a dog for a walk anymore.

[molliepops]

Possibly to save wild life but I am not getting into fights over that again so will leave it at that.

[bazaar1]

Originally Posted by molliepops

Possibly to save wild life but I am not getting into fights over that again so will leave it at that.

I think some cat owners get protective as they get accused of 'allowing' their cats to destroy wildlife. I don't like my cats hunting, but equally I will not try to force them out of the instinct, it cannotbe done and most of the methods suggested are cruel. I would much rather take steps to avoid a hunt being successful such as a bell (or 3), ensuring I provide suitable nutrients (so he's not hunting out of dietary requirement). Cats can and do have a big impact on local wildlife, however this is now not likely to be pets but ferals - they DO hunt for food and will have far more impact that a local fat cat who thinks that bird looks fun to chase.

[MarellaK]

The mouse and rat population would escalate if cats weren't allowed to hunt. There are reports of this happening in areas where the cat population has decreased. There are lots of very passionate, nature loving people who hate cats hunting but rats and mice are still considered vermin and can spread disease. Cats kill a lot more rodents than they do birds and cats have been used for centuries, on farms, ships, factories and other work places to keep the rodent population down.

Many of these nature loving people can be a bit hypocritical as most of them still eat meat - but that's another story.

I have never ever punished my own cats (unless you could call hysterical screaming at unwanted 'presents' punishment). My Tabitha did eventually stop bringing her prey home to me (it took many years) when she finally realised I didn't approve, I would always instantly remove the prey from her (dead or alive), depriving her of the pleasure of chasing it around the house.

As for spraying water, I am guilty of having done this to neighbourhood 'bullies' who tried to terrorise my Tabitha from enjoying her own garden. I found it to be an effective deterrent. My Tabitha sometimes came home wet, when it wasn't raining, so I assume she had been sprayed by someone who didn't want her in their garden. I consider water to be a fairly harmless deterrent but I would never use it on my own cats to 'punish' them for unwanted behaviour because I never want their trust in me to be undermined in any way. I don't particularly mind other people spraying my cats in order to protect their own cats or property as long as they don't hurt them in any other way.

[primer]

i have used an rspb 'bleep' collar on one of my cats who is a prolific and skilled hunter. it works on jumps so doesn't stop them hunting on the ground. truth be told, they don't really stop him at all as he seems to manage to 'lose' the collars pretty quickly and at £10.00 a throw they are expensive... one thing though, he certainly isn't traumatised by wearing it, he's really not that sensitive

[bazaar1]

Originally Posted by primer

i have used an rspb 'bleep' collar on one of my cats who is a prolific and skilled hunter. it works on jumps so doesn't stop them hunting on the ground. truth be told, they don't really stop him at all as he seems to manage to 'lose' the collars pretty quickly and at £10.00 a throw they are expensive... one thing though, he certainly isn't traumatised by wearing it, he's really not that sensitive

Not heard of them! So has he just amended his hunting style to accommodate?

[primer]

Originally Posted by bazaar1

Not heard of them! So has he just amended his hunting style to accommodate?

well, he either loses the collar, or he seems to catch them anyway regardless of the advance warning they get from the bleep, so i've more or less given up.

he very sweet and soppy with humans, but he is also the most exceptionally successful/ prolific hunter of the many cats that have populated my life so far...

[BlackGrass]

You cannot stop the killing. My cat can barely walk and has lost all its teeth, it still brings me dead birds.