I laugh at people demanding that ITV 'take risks'. These would be the first who would find it hilarous when a new 12 part drama 'tanks' after week 2. It would be a talking point every week 'how long will ITV stick with this show in this slot?' etc.
ITV took a risk by axing a long running breakfast show. Look how that has turned out, and the reaction on here, it's now a stick to beat them with "ITV were idiots to axe GMTV"
A lot of the ideas in this thread are constrained by 3 things
- Money
- Ideas that are easier said than done "They need more returning dramas" - you don't say
- What other channels are doing at the same time. All the ideas don't consider BBC1 airing New Tricks in the same slot, or more damaging, a stripped drama.
ITV1 and BBC1 also have the problem that every show has to be a mainstream hit, take comedy for example, they have to appeal to everyone and end up appealing to nobody. All the hit comedies that people rave about over the last few years (like The Inbetweeners) are cult hits that get 2 or 3 million.
I would guess that Moving Wallpaper would still be running now had it been on BBC2 or Channel 4.
That's a good point. But BBC1 have broadcast a lot of filler in the last few months that ITV1 could've taken advantage of. It's also been shown that the two channels can air programmes together and get good ratings in the process (look at Merlin v The X Factor).
I'm one who'd love to see ITV get on a good footing with excellent drama, so I wouldn't celebrate if critically acclaimed drama failed.
I agree, money is a serious issue but maybe they shouldn't be giving millions of pounds to a guy who can't even be bothered to broadcast his show in the UK next year?
The funny thing is that ITV is probably debated more than any other channel on this thread and there are many good ideas about rejuvenating the channel, but they're not taken - why is that?
I'm wondering whether The X Factor/Britain's Got Talent sucks up so much of the budget that they can't afford to test long running dramas.Or whether they have lost their nerve after their disatrous slate of 2008 so they're steering well clear of long commissions in case it goes belly up again.
Their attempts to do longer running shows targeted at younger viewers in 2008 failed miserably. They tried again and failed again with Married, Single, Other. In 2009, for a period, it seemed they were almost guaranteed 6m for a Monday Night Thriller so it's not too surprising.
If you take The X Factor and Britain's Got Talent away from ITV, the budget will be reduced in response to declining profits and less drama will be produced. Aside from that, XF and BGT are still being made on hourly budgets no higher than those of a drama.
The next obvious chance to free up some money is whenever ITV can offload their football rights (I think they're stuck with them until 2012). I know there is some debate about The Champions League and whether they're making anything from that but we know that the £70m FA deal is running at a significant loss.
And for £70m, they could sign Simon Cowell for 10 years. Or fund nearly 4 entire series of The X Factor.
Strip ITV of the soaps, the Cowell shows, Doc Martin and I'm A Celebrity and they would have nothing in terms of rating bankers. In comparison take EastEnders, Strictly Come Dancing, New Tricks, Doctor Who and Waking the Dead from BBC1 and they'd still have The One Show supporting the start of the evening, Merlin, Silent Witness, Spooks, Who Do You Think You Are, Have I Got News For You?...their programme slate is so much more stable.
ITV do have hits, they just don't use them enough - like Doc Martin and Benidorm. If they were returning now, as they should be, ITV would be looking forward to a strong 4th quarter again. Imagine Doc Martin on Mondays, Benidorm on Thursdays and Downton Abbey on Sundays? That would look pretty strong.
There's also Wild At Heart, Foyle's War, Lewis, Dancing on Ice, Harry Hill...
I don't think that's really where BBC1's strength is compared to ITV1. It's that they seem to get 3.5m-4.5m consistently at 9pm. The Young Ones would have probably found itself around 3m for 3 nights on ITV1 at best. Nobody on here will even remember that show in a year but it's the kind of thing that helps BBC1 in the ratings.
Also, ITV1 is still #1 in primetime. They're let down in comparison to the BBC by lower daytime ratings and lower ratings for the news at all times of day.
I agree, money is a serious issue but maybe they shouldn't be giving millions of pounds to a guy who can't even be bothered to broadcast his show in the UK next year?
He won't get his millions of pounds if he doesn't broadcast his shows in the UK next year. It's not an annual contract, it's based on hours produced (which is why the actual numbers put on the deals by the press are always guesswork).
C4 and Five need a flashsip show right now.
BBC1 has Eastenders, BBC2 has Top Gear/Mock The Week, ITV Has I'm A Celebrity, BGT and XF.
To me, right now it seems to be Grand Designs for Channel 4... and Five hasn't had a flagship show in yonks!!!
Channel 4 doesn't so much have a flagship show now but it does have strong brands. Gordon Ramsay, Jamie Oliver, Come Dine With Me, Gok Wan, Secret Millionaire, The Simpsons, Hollyoaks, Shameless...
They've got a reputation for making certain kinds of programming (property, cooking, body image/makeover)which I think is fine for them. I think the main channel has lost its reputation in homegrown comedy and drama.
Five could definitely use some stronger brands in primetime. And by that, I don't mean Big Brother.
No. In the primetime shares provided by DS (for 7-11pm), BBC1 are ahead so far this year with 21.6% to ITV1's 20.7%. Once the year's over though, ITV1 might nudge ahead as they traditionally close the gap in Autumn due to IAC/TXF.
In another definition of primetime, which ITV and Broadcast use (7-10.30pm), they might be ahead.
Also, ITV1 is still #1 in primetime. They're let down in comparison to the BBC by lower daytime ratings and lower ratings for the news at all times of day.
.
No. In the primetime shares provided by DS (for 7-11pm), BBC1 are ahead so far this year with 21.6% to ITV1's 20.7%. Once the year's over though, ITV1 might nudge ahead as they traditionally close the gap in Autumn due to IAC/TXF.
In another definition of primetime, which ITV and Broadcast use (7-10.30pm), they might be ahead.
I thought not, I was hoping you were around to give us the statistics.
I do find it frustrating how ITV1 can claim to be the most watched primetime channel by having 7 extra soap episodes a week than BBC1. Its a testament to BBC1's other shows how they can actually compete and win primetime against a 90 minute soap night.
Think it's quite common with The X Factor. Pretty sure Dermot posted on his twitter last week that he arrived back from filming in Aus late Friday then had to do some voiceover stuff.
Surprising really in Peter Dickson's case considering it's pretty much the same script for each show, every year.
This really hasn't been ITV's year. Even the much touted ITV2 has shown such ratings flops as Jedward, The Saturdays 24.7 and Paris Hilton's New BFF( although my niece watches it) and is now falling behind BBC Three, which has a much more varied line up.
Firstly I wouldn't say BBC3's line up is much more varied. They have their few hits which flood the schedules (Real Hustle, Snog, Marry, Avoid, Family Guy etc.) although admittedly have more original commissions.
Secondly, odd ITV2 now seem to have a new general promo running for shows like the Saturdays and Jedward, but all those shows have now ended.
My final gripe with ITV (and Channel 4 for that matter) is their lack of responsivness fo successful digital shows. If BBC2/BBC3 gets a big hit, its promoted to BBC1 quite quickly where it becomes a massive TV show.
This problem is greater with Channel 4 though. I'm all for giving digital channels their own unique identity but digital channels should never overshadow their terrestrial counterpart. Channel 4 would probably be in a simiar position to how ITV1 currently rates if they stripped E4 of its successes.
Firstly no way C4 would rival ITV1 even if it did strip out all of E4's hits. And secondly, you'd just end up with E4 becoming like - well, ITV2.
BBC3 and BBC4 can afford to lose shows to their parents - ITV2 and E4 can't really. Remember too ITV2 and E4 also have to be sold to advertisers, and if the hits the channel are built around are continuously stolen, it's going to be more difficult to sell those ad spaces.
We've seen this week how The Inbetweeners put on 1m viewers on the last series without moving channels. Nobody knows for sure how it would have performed on C4 - but possible it could have got exactly the same rating and we'd all be saying how the promotion had doubled it's audience, when in reality that would have happened anyway without moving anywhere.
Their attempts to do longer running shows targeted at younger viewers in 2008 failed miserably. They tried again and failed again with Married, Single, Other. In 2009, for a period, it seemed they were almost guaranteed 6m for a Monday Night Thriller so it's not too surprising.
But it's so short term. If they're going to axe the likes of Heartbeat, Kingdom, The Royle they need something to take their place.
If you take The X Factor and Britain's Got Talent away from ITV, the budget will be reduced in response to declining profits and less drama will be produced. Aside from that, XF and BGT are still being made on hourly budgets no higher than those of a drama.
I believe I'm right in saying Simon Cowell gets the extra amounts he demands each year for The X Factor/Britain's Got Talent. I have the feeling the drama budget doesn't increase in kind.
The next obvious chance to free up some money is whenever ITV can offload their football rights (I think they're stuck with them until 2012). I know there is some debate about The Champions League and whether they're making anything from that but we know that the £70m FA deal is running at a significant loss.
And for £70m, they could sign Simon Cowell for 10 years. Or fund nearly 4 entire series of The X Factor.
It's strange, because doesn't the football attract the key demo more than the majority of shows? You'd think they'd be an advertisers dream.
ITV do have hits, they just don't use them enough - like Doc Martin and Benidorm. If they were returning now, as they should be, ITV would be looking forward to a strong 4th quarter again. Imagine Doc Martin on Mondays, Benidorm on Thursdays and Downton Abbey on Sundays? That would look pretty strong.
There's also Wild At Heart, Foyle's War, Lewis, Dancing on Ice, Harry Hill...
Again, that just shows the short sightedness of ITV. I'm sure they could've got Doc Martin and Benidorm ready for this year - I'm sure the makers were ready for it. Instead they send Martin Clunes off to make some run of the mill documentaries.
I don't think that's really where BBC1's strength is compared to ITV1. It's that they seem to get 3.5m-4.5m consistently at 9pm. The Young Ones would have probably found itself around 3m for 3 nights on ITV1 at best. Nobody on here will even remember that show in a year but it's the kind of thing that helps BBC1 in the ratings.
ITV used to be the default channel with the benefit of this. Partly down to BBC1's improvement in recent times and partly through ITV's sheer incompetence they've lost this.
Also, ITV1 is still #1 in primetime. They're let down in comparison to the BBC by lower daytime ratings and lower ratings for the news at all times of day.
BBC1 leads by traditional form of primetime as stated by others.
He won't get his millions of pounds if he doesn't broadcast his shows in the UK next year. It's not an annual contract, it's based on hours produced (which is why the actual numbers put on the deals by the press are always guesswork).
It'll be interesting to see how they use this money. No X Factor in autumn 2011 could result in an interesting time for ITV.
Even in the 7-10.30pm primetime definition, the biggest gap between BBC1 & ITV1 is probably the 10pm news. I was more trying to make a point than get into a debate about definitions of primetime!
I thought not, I was hoping you were around to give us the statistics.
I know ITV1 finished ahead last year though.
I do find it frustrating how ITV1 can claim to be the most watched primetime channel by having 7 extra soap episodes a week than BBC1. Its a testament to BBC1's other shows how they can actually compete and win a night against a 90 minute soap night.
Throw in Casualty and Holby City (plus River City for us unfortunate folk North of the border) and BBC1 have 4 hours. I don't really think that either of them have a great and varied schedule from 7-9pm. It's the same things year round with some cheap filler and PSB committments buried in slots when the other channel airs its soaps.
I think Broadcast use 6-10.30
They used to use it in their daily reports and in their mag its what they use iirc.
I know Broadcast used to use 7-10.30pm during the early part of the last decade. I assumed they would still be using that definition?
Since the '90s, the BBC has been using the ITC definition of 18.00-22.30 while ITV's used 19.00-22.30. It can be confusing because for e.g. last year, BBC1 won primetime using the 18.00-22.30 figure (22.9% vs. 22.7%) but ITV1 won using the other one (22.3% vs. 23.7%), so both broadcasters said they were "number 1 in primetime" !
I laugh at people demanding that ITV 'take risks'. These would be the first who would find it hilarous when a new 12 part drama 'tanks' after week 2. It would be a talking point every week 'how long will ITV stick with this show in this slot?' etc.
ITV took a risk by axing a long running breakfast show. Look how that has turned out, and the reaction on here, it's now a stick to beat them with "ITV were idiots to axe GMTV"
A lot of the ideas in this thread are constrained by 3 things
- Money
- Ideas that are easier said than done "They need more returning dramas" - you don't say
- What other channels are doing at the same time. All the ideas don't consider BBC1 airing New Tricks in the same slot, or more damaging, a stripped drama.
ITV1 and BBC1 also have the problem that every show has to be a mainstream hit, take comedy for example, they have to appeal to everyone and end up appealing to nobody. All the hit comedies that people rave about over the last few years (like The Inbetweeners) are cult hits that get 2 or 3 million.
I would guess that Moving Wallpaper would still be running now had it been on BBC2 or Channel 4.
You metion about ITV needing more returning drama, and say everyone knows that. But what you are missing is that they are not doing anything to rectify this.
We understand the financial situation ITV are in, and that they only have x amount to spend on drama. However, we are just saying they are not using it to there main advantage. They are not using there drama budget wisely, and are not scheduling them wisely.
Many of the dramas that ITV are producing are small run, limited shelf life dramas. They are harking back to when ITV were doing so well with their one part drama premiers, not the long series that were ITVs bread and butter for years. Now surely its less expensive to produce a 8-12 episode series, than say 3 x 2 or 3 part dramas. It is also alot less hassle to have to advertise and support one new series rather than several new dramas.
Look at L&O: UK, it premiered well, and then was stopped after 7 episodes, and was replaced by another drama. Surely sense would say that as soon as they saw it had legs they should had taken the decision to show all 12 episodes, and have left the drama that was taking its place until later in the year. This way it would not have effected any of there budgets, and still have built on L&O. Instead it seems to have lost any momentum it was picking up.
You mention about the cost to ITV of a longer series that bombs. Well no ones saying they have to pick up every drama as an 8-12 parter. However, surely it makes sense for ITV to pick some 2 or 3 parters that could be turned in to returnable 12 part dramas if they are a success. Many of the limited run dramas they have now, are just not the type that could return for 8-12 episodes a year.
ITV also has BGT, X-Factor and Im a celebrity, and they are not using them to support dramas. It only seems that this year ITV has started using X-Factor to launch new dramas. Why has this just started?, Fox has been doing that wth Pop Idol for years (House, Glee etc). Since the Sunday X-factor last year they have the ideal slot to either premier a drama on the sunday night, and then move it to the week or pick a series and play it out on both sundays and mondays for 6 weeks. Keep on doing this and at some point you will find a hit drama. As soon as it catches on, premiere its next series after X-Factor again, then again move it mid week.
ITV also has BGT, X-Factor and Im a celebrity, and they are not using them to support dramas. It only seems that this year ITV has started using X-Factor to launch new dramas. Why has this just started?, Fox has been doing that wth Pop Idol for years (House, Glee etc). Since the Sunday X-factor last year they have the ideal slot to either premier a drama on the sunday night, and then move it to the week or pick a series and play it out on both sundays and mondays for 6 weeks. Keep on doing this and at some point you will find a hit drama. As soon as it catches on, premiere its next series after X-Factor again, then again move it mid week.
A good example of this is what was used last week for The X Factor lead out and what got it tonight.
Last Week: 71 Degrees North - a new show which runs into a series and could've held up well with The X Factor as a lead in.
This Week: Phil Collins For One Night Only - what's the point of that???
Throw in Casualty and Holby City (plus River City for us unfortunate folk North of the border) and BBC1 have 4 hours. I don't really think that either of them have a great and varied schedule from 7-9pm. It's the same things year round with some cheap filler and PSB committments buried in slots when the other channel airs its soaps.
I forgot about the wonderful world of Holby. The BBC dont use them to blockade and hold up a night like the ITV soaps but do add structure to the schedules.
Comments
That's a good point. But BBC1 have broadcast a lot of filler in the last few months that ITV1 could've taken advantage of. It's also been shown that the two channels can air programmes together and get good ratings in the process (look at Merlin v The X Factor).
I'm one who'd love to see ITV get on a good footing with excellent drama, so I wouldn't celebrate if critically acclaimed drama failed.
I agree, money is a serious issue but maybe they shouldn't be giving millions of pounds to a guy who can't even be bothered to broadcast his show in the UK next year?
Nothing will beat the Beijing 2008 intro in my view.
The London 2012 intro perhaps
Their attempts to do longer running shows targeted at younger viewers in 2008 failed miserably. They tried again and failed again with Married, Single, Other. In 2009, for a period, it seemed they were almost guaranteed 6m for a Monday Night Thriller so it's not too surprising.
If you take The X Factor and Britain's Got Talent away from ITV, the budget will be reduced in response to declining profits and less drama will be produced. Aside from that, XF and BGT are still being made on hourly budgets no higher than those of a drama.
The next obvious chance to free up some money is whenever ITV can offload their football rights (I think they're stuck with them until 2012). I know there is some debate about The Champions League and whether they're making anything from that but we know that the £70m FA deal is running at a significant loss.
And for £70m, they could sign Simon Cowell for 10 years. Or fund nearly 4 entire series of The X Factor.
ITV do have hits, they just don't use them enough - like Doc Martin and Benidorm. If they were returning now, as they should be, ITV would be looking forward to a strong 4th quarter again. Imagine Doc Martin on Mondays, Benidorm on Thursdays and Downton Abbey on Sundays? That would look pretty strong.
There's also Wild At Heart, Foyle's War, Lewis, Dancing on Ice, Harry Hill...
I don't think that's really where BBC1's strength is compared to ITV1. It's that they seem to get 3.5m-4.5m consistently at 9pm. The Young Ones would have probably found itself around 3m for 3 nights on ITV1 at best. Nobody on here will even remember that show in a year but it's the kind of thing that helps BBC1 in the ratings.
Also, ITV1 is still #1 in primetime. They're let down in comparison to the BBC by lower daytime ratings and lower ratings for the news at all times of day.
He won't get his millions of pounds if he doesn't broadcast his shows in the UK next year. It's not an annual contract, it's based on hours produced (which is why the actual numbers put on the deals by the press are always guesswork).
Channel 4 doesn't so much have a flagship show now but it does have strong brands. Gordon Ramsay, Jamie Oliver, Come Dine With Me, Gok Wan, Secret Millionaire, The Simpsons, Hollyoaks, Shameless...
They've got a reputation for making certain kinds of programming (property, cooking, body image/makeover)which I think is fine for them. I think the main channel has lost its reputation in homegrown comedy and drama.
Five could definitely use some stronger brands in primetime. And by that, I don't mean Big Brother.
In another definition of primetime, which ITV and Broadcast use (7-10.30pm), they might be ahead.
Barb doesn't agree
I know ITV1 finished ahead last year though.
I do find it frustrating how ITV1 can claim to be the most watched primetime channel by having 7 extra soap episodes a week than BBC1. Its a testament to BBC1's other shows how they can actually compete and win primetime against a 90 minute soap night.
Surprising really in Peter Dickson's case considering it's pretty much the same script for each show, every year.
Firstly I wouldn't say BBC3's line up is much more varied. They have their few hits which flood the schedules (Real Hustle, Snog, Marry, Avoid, Family Guy etc.) although admittedly have more original commissions.
Secondly, odd ITV2 now seem to have a new general promo running for shows like the Saturdays and Jedward, but all those shows have now ended.
Firstly no way C4 would rival ITV1 even if it did strip out all of E4's hits. And secondly, you'd just end up with E4 becoming like - well, ITV2.
BBC3 and BBC4 can afford to lose shows to their parents - ITV2 and E4 can't really. Remember too ITV2 and E4 also have to be sold to advertisers, and if the hits the channel are built around are continuously stolen, it's going to be more difficult to sell those ad spaces.
We've seen this week how The Inbetweeners put on 1m viewers on the last series without moving channels. Nobody knows for sure how it would have performed on C4 - but possible it could have got exactly the same rating and we'd all be saying how the promotion had doubled it's audience, when in reality that would have happened anyway without moving anywhere.
I think Broadcast use 6-10.30
They used to use it in their daily reports and in their mag its what they use iirc.
But it's so short term. If they're going to axe the likes of Heartbeat, Kingdom, The Royle they need something to take their place.
I believe I'm right in saying Simon Cowell gets the extra amounts he demands each year for The X Factor/Britain's Got Talent. I have the feeling the drama budget doesn't increase in kind.
It's strange, because doesn't the football attract the key demo more than the majority of shows? You'd think they'd be an advertisers dream.
Again, that just shows the short sightedness of ITV. I'm sure they could've got Doc Martin and Benidorm ready for this year - I'm sure the makers were ready for it. Instead they send Martin Clunes off to make some run of the mill documentaries.
ITV used to be the default channel with the benefit of this. Partly down to BBC1's improvement in recent times and partly through ITV's sheer incompetence they've lost this.
BBC1 leads by traditional form of primetime as stated by others.
It'll be interesting to see how they use this money. No X Factor in autumn 2011 could result in an interesting time for ITV.
Even in the 7-10.30pm primetime definition, the biggest gap between BBC1 & ITV1 is probably the 10pm news. I was more trying to make a point than get into a debate about definitions of primetime!
Throw in Casualty and Holby City (plus River City for us unfortunate folk North of the border) and BBC1 have 4 hours. I don't really think that either of them have a great and varied schedule from 7-9pm. It's the same things year round with some cheap filler and PSB committments buried in slots when the other channel airs its soaps.
Since the '90s, the BBC has been using the ITC definition of 18.00-22.30 while ITV's used 19.00-22.30. It can be confusing because for e.g. last year, BBC1 won primetime using the 18.00-22.30 figure (22.9% vs. 22.7%) but ITV1 won using the other one (22.3% vs. 23.7%), so both broadcasters said they were "number 1 in primetime"
You metion about ITV needing more returning drama, and say everyone knows that. But what you are missing is that they are not doing anything to rectify this.
We understand the financial situation ITV are in, and that they only have x amount to spend on drama. However, we are just saying they are not using it to there main advantage. They are not using there drama budget wisely, and are not scheduling them wisely.
Many of the dramas that ITV are producing are small run, limited shelf life dramas. They are harking back to when ITV were doing so well with their one part drama premiers, not the long series that were ITVs bread and butter for years. Now surely its less expensive to produce a 8-12 episode series, than say 3 x 2 or 3 part dramas. It is also alot less hassle to have to advertise and support one new series rather than several new dramas.
Look at L&O: UK, it premiered well, and then was stopped after 7 episodes, and was replaced by another drama. Surely sense would say that as soon as they saw it had legs they should had taken the decision to show all 12 episodes, and have left the drama that was taking its place until later in the year. This way it would not have effected any of there budgets, and still have built on L&O. Instead it seems to have lost any momentum it was picking up.
You mention about the cost to ITV of a longer series that bombs. Well no ones saying they have to pick up every drama as an 8-12 parter. However, surely it makes sense for ITV to pick some 2 or 3 parters that could be turned in to returnable 12 part dramas if they are a success. Many of the limited run dramas they have now, are just not the type that could return for 8-12 episodes a year.
ITV also has BGT, X-Factor and Im a celebrity, and they are not using them to support dramas. It only seems that this year ITV has started using X-Factor to launch new dramas. Why has this just started?, Fox has been doing that wth Pop Idol for years (House, Glee etc). Since the Sunday X-factor last year they have the ideal slot to either premier a drama on the sunday night, and then move it to the week or pick a series and play it out on both sundays and mondays for 6 weeks. Keep on doing this and at some point you will find a hit drama. As soon as it catches on, premiere its next series after X-Factor again, then again move it mid week.
A good example of this is what was used last week for The X Factor lead out and what got it tonight.
Last Week: 71 Degrees North - a new show which runs into a series and could've held up well with The X Factor as a lead in.
This Week: Phil Collins For One Night Only - what's the point of that???