There are 48% of the voters, possibly more, who want freedom of movement, who want the single market, who want to be engaged and cosmopolitan. We're not going to get all of that but if just 3% of the other side want 95% of that, or 90% then that's democracy, that's Britain deciding what it's relationship with Europe and the rest of the world is going to look like and that's what the Brexit extremists said they want.
So - going back my original analogy - let's take a look at this Disneyland option
You need to be a little bit careful with this type of statement my friend.
I'm a leaver (albeit a very very borderline one) but I am toilet trained and I know what knife and fork to use, I certainly consider myself to be 'engaged and cosmopolitan'.
Small point, but please don't patronise, not all of us are Farage supporters
You need to be a little bit careful with this type of statement my friend.
I'm a leaver (albeit a very very borderline one) and I'm toilet trained and I know what knife and fork to use, I certainly consider myself to be 'engaged and cosmopolitan'.
Small point, but please don't patronise, not all of us are Farage supporters
Did you read what I wrote?
We are ALL leavers now. The vote happened and we're leaving - my analogy was a decision to go on holiday in Europe or in the USA, and the USA won. Next stop Heathrow and the good old US of A?
But are we flying to New York or New Mexico? Are we headed for California or Texas?
Shall we visit Niagra Falls or would it be better to visit the Grand Canyon?
What I am saying is there are people like you and it's up to you to engage us to persuade us that your chosen destination in the USA is the one we should board the plane and head for. And for the Farage camp both of us despise - going back to my analogy again - The Great Dismal Swamp in Chesapeake Bay isn't going to get a look in and they will just have to get used to it.
We are ALL leavers now. The vote happened and we're leaving - my analogy was a decision to go on holiday in Europe or in the USA, and the USA won. Next stop Heathrow and the good old US of A?
But are we flying to New York or New Mexico? Are we headed for California or Texas?
Shall we visit Niagra Falls or would it be better to visit the Grand Canyon?
What I am saying is there are people like you and it's up to you to engage us to persuade us that your chosen destination in the USA is the one we should board the plane and head for. And for the Farage camp both of us despise - going back to my analogy again - The Great Dismal Swamp in Chesapeake Bay isn't going to get a look in and they will just have to get used to it.
I think this has to be the worst analogy on DS i have ever come across. I have seriously no idea how this relates to the Brexit. We dont get to choose how we leave that is up the UK government and 27 other nations.
Maybe try to explain in just plain english what you mean and leave the analogy stuff out. ?
I think this has to be the worst analogy on DS i have ever come across. I have seriously no idea how this relates to the Brexit. We dont get to choose how we leave that is up the UK government and 27 other nations.
Maybe try to explain in just plain english what you mean and leave the analogy stuff out. ?
Ok, I'm going to attempt to explain. God help me.
There are many different types of Brexit, all varying in quality. The same can be said for Disneyland, holiday resorts, or whatever else has been mentioned in this random analogy. We've chose Brexit, but where are we going? What is Brexit? A family chose to go to America rather than to have a 'staycation', but where in America are they going?
It's the job of the Brexiteers and the UK government to choose a destination, the same as it would be for those who wanted to go to America to create a suitable itinerary.
The government seems to be going for a CETA + type deal and hoping they can get enough done in two years to mitigate the worst of leaving the single market. Last week David Davis was asking industry to tell him which tariff barriers and non tariff barriers were the most important and to try to quantify them. So they appear to be trying for a partial deal.
Mrs May seems to have convinced herself that the voters want restrictions on FOM even though 48% voted to stay in the Eu and of the leavers it wasn't even the top reason for voting leave. She has allowed those that (wrongly) say that the vote was about FOM to set the agenda. Maybe she agrees with them and is personally opposed to it.
Anyway her no staying in via the back door comments suggest that the EEA is probably out.
How good CETA + is depends on how much she gets negotiated in time. If she gets a lot done well great. If those that think 2years is not enough are correct then it could be a disaster. A temporary move to EEA / EFTA delaying restrictions on the Fom while we sort out agreements with other countries must be the safest bet and the one I would support.
The thing about FOM is that we don't know how many more people want to come and work here from Eastern Europe. Farmers Weekly has already reported (before the referendum) that the agricultural sector -the traditional start point for workers from Eastern Europe - wanted to set up a scheme for temporary workers to come in from Turkey and Russia for havest work as the supply from Eastern Europe has largely dried up. So maybe there are not many more that want to come anyway and a delay on restrictions maynot increase the numbers much anyway.
There are many different types of Brexit, all varying in quality. The same can be said for Disneyland, holiday resorts, or whatever else has been mentioned in this random analogy. We've chose Brexit, but where are we going? What is Brexit? A family chose to go to America rather than to have a 'staycation', but where in America are they going?
It's the job of the Brexiteers and the UK government to choose a destination, the same as it would be for those who wanted to go to America to create a suitable itinerary.
That's what I think the OP is saying, anyway.
There's a chink of sense in there somewhere.
You got that exactly wrong.
It's not the job of the Leave campaign to tell us how we Leave because Leave or Remain we're all going to be affected and we should all have a say
The Analogy was very simple and I would have thought not beyond anyone.
Choice 1 in reality - Remain or Leave
Everyone gets to Remain or Everyone gets to Leave - whichever side wins wins
Choice 1 in analogy Holiday in Europe or Holiday in USA
Everyone get to go to Europe or Everyone gets to go to the USA.
Result of Choice 1 in reality - Leave Result of Choice 1 in analogy - USA
In the analogy, and the premise of the thread, is that we are now ALL going to the USA - and that means we ALL get a choice about where we go in the USA,
Europe is off the table but anywhere from Alaska to Hawaii is a viable choice.
In reality we have the choice of what sort of Leave we want to try for and that choice covers the whole Norway to North Korea spectrum
Hearing the Leave camp talk it's as if the former remainers have no say - that is not the case we have just as much say as the leavers.
We ARE going to leave - that is settled. How we are going to leave is our choice and that means it's a choice for ALL of us not just those who want the North Korea option.
It's not the job of the Leave campaign to tell us how we Leave because Leave or Remain we're all going to be affected and we should all have a say
The Analogy was very simple and I would have thought not beyond anyone.
Choice 1 in reality - Remain or Leave
Everyone gets to Remain or Everyone gets to Leave - whichever side wins wins
Choice 1 in analogy Holiday in Europe or Holiday in USA
Everyone get to go to Europe or Everyone gets to go to the USA.
Result of Choice 1 in reality - Leave Result of Choice 1 in analogy - USA
In the analogy, and the premise of the thread, is that we are now ALL going to the USA - and that means we ALL get a choice about where we go in the USA,
Europe is off the table but anywhere from Alaska to Hawaii is a viable choice.
In reality we have the choice of what sort of Leave we want to try for and that choice covers the whole Norway to North Korea spectrum
Hearing the Leave camp talk it's as if the former remainers have no say - that is not the case we have just as much say as the leavers.
We ARE going to leave - that is settled. How we are going to leave is our choice and that means it's a choice for ALL of us not just those who want the North Korea option.
I see! I wouldn't call a multiple step analogy 'simple' though!
We are ALL leavers now. The vote happened and we're leaving - my analogy was a decision to go on holiday in Europe or in the USA, and the USA won. Next stop Heathrow and the good old US of A?
But are we flying to New York or New Mexico? Are we headed for California or Texas?
Shall we visit Niagra Falls or would it be better to visit the Grand Canyon?
What I am saying is there are people like you and it's up to you to engage us to persuade us that your chosen destination in the USA is the one we should board the plane and head for. And for the Farage camp both of us despise - going back to my analogy again - The Great Dismal Swamp in Chesapeake Bay isn't going to get a look in and they will just have to get used to it.
The analogy doesn't even work that well - because we seem to have made a decision to always, forever, go on holiday in America. That's because the idea of a referendum on an issue settling it, for all time, was ridiculous. All time is a very long time. And it became more ridiculous when the two votes were largely divided on age, and the balance of the votes will inevitanly change - as the older voters of today are replaced by those who were too young to vote in 2016. .
In your analogy, we now have a situation where the family decided to go to the USA. The consequence of going to the USA is that the renegotiated price of a European trip would now be too high. However. by the time we implement the choice in 2019, granny - who had the decisive vote where to go, will be dead , and the family will find their choice, every year afterwards, is determined by dead granny's vote.
Thats not a situation thats can endure - especially as the world forms into bigger and bigger economic units. At some point there's bound to be another family meeting.
Your point about there being multiple destinations possible within the US , is the right one. The problem is that the family can't go for most of them - because Granny still has a vote, and rules most of them out. Mamma May either has to tell Granny to belt up, and enjoy the visit to singlemarketville , or they are all going to end up in poorville, forever. .
The analogy doesn't even work that well - because we seem to have made a decision to always, forever, go on holiday in America. That's because the idea of a referendum on an issue settling it, for all time, was ridiculous. All time is a very long time. And it became more ridiculous when the two votes were largely divided on age, and the balance of the votes will inevitanly change - as the older voters of today are replaced by those who were too young to vote in 2016. .
In your analogy, we now have a situation where the family decided to go to the USA. The consequence of going to the USA is that the renegotiated price of a European trip would now be too high. However. by the time we implement the choice in 2019, granny - who had the decisive vote where to go, will be dead , and the family will find their choice, every year afterwards, is determined by dead granny's vote.
Thats not a situation thats can endure - especially as the world forms into bigger and bigger economic units. At some point there's bound to be another family meeting.
Your point about there being multiple destinations possible within the US , is the right one. The problem is that the family can't go for most of them - because Granny still has a vote, and rules most of them out. Mamma May either has to tell Granny to belt up, and enjoy the visit to singlemarketville , or they are all going to end up in poorville, forever. .
OK I get what you're saying - analogies are never perfect.
My point is that although we are, de facto, all Leavers now there are 48% of us who want to have a close cultural, economic and trading relationship with Europe, we still have a say and all the 'You lost shut up' crap isn't going to fly.
I think that early on there was some confusion. Many thought "hard Brexit" was some new sort of sex fetish. This is the only explination I can think of for the self harm that Hard Brexit supporters seem so keen on.
OK I get what you're saying - analogies are never perfect.
My point is that although we are, de facto, all Leavers now there are 48% of us who want to have a close cultural, economic and trading relationship with Europe, we still have a say and all the 'You lost shut up' crap isn't going to fly.
The point is we dont have a say. I am going to try the holiday analogy.
This year the family voted if they should go on holiday or just stay at home. The family had no idea where the holiday is, how much it will cost, or even what mode of transport they are using. Granny May will choose the holiday along with her mates from the local (Euro) bingo club. The problem is most of gran's mates from the bingo dont like the family and are taking that into account when helping granny choose the location.
The family did vote to go on holiday but now granny has delayed the holiday while her and the mates choose. The holiday will now not be for another 2 years and they still have no idea where they are going. Half the family dont really want to go, some will think the holiday costs to much. Most of the family think it will be the same holiday they always go on every year and will be disappointed. However the family voted. they have no say in the matter and how to go on holiday with granny no matter what happends.
Some of the family are thinking of leaving the family and going to live with her mates in the bingo hall. Apart the one from Greece she has no money and is not much fun to play bingo with.
It's not the job of the Leave campaign to tell us how we Leave because Leave or Remain we're all going to be affected and we should all have a say
The Analogy was very simple and I would have thought not beyond anyone.
Choice 1 in reality - Remain or Leave
Everyone gets to Remain or Everyone gets to Leave - whichever side wins wins
Choice 1 in analogy Holiday in Europe or Holiday in USA
Everyone get to go to Europe or Everyone gets to go to the USA.
Result of Choice 1 in reality - Leave Result of Choice 1 in analogy - USA
In the analogy, and the premise of the thread, is that we are now ALL going to the USA - and that means we ALL get a choice about where we go in the USA,
Europe is off the table but anywhere from Alaska to Hawaii is a viable choice.
In reality we have the choice of what sort of Leave we want to try for and that choice covers the whole Norway to North Korea spectrum
Hearing the Leave camp talk it's as if the former remainers have no say - that is not the case we have just as much say as the leavers.
We ARE going to leave - that is settled. How we are going to leave is our choice and that means it's a choice for ALL of us not just those who want the North Korea option.
Is not a choice for all of us, it's a choice for none of us (unless one of us is May).
The government will try to get this stitched up before the general election and by the time any of us get a say, it will be a done deal.
We had a referendum, but now we have to just sit back and let the powers that be make the decisions. There is no mechanism for the public to have any involvement except very indirectly (letters to the press, posting on forum, street protests, etc.).
This is true for the 52% and the 48%. We are all on a magical mystery tour together and only the driver knows where we are heading (and I'm not 100% she knows either).
There are many different types of Brexit, all varying in quality. The same can be said for Disneyland, holiday resorts, or whatever else has been mentioned in this random analogy. We've chose Brexit, but where are we going? What is Brexit? A family chose to go to America rather than to have a 'staycation', but where in America are they going?
It's the job of the Brexiteers and the UK government to choose a destination, the same as it would be for those who wanted to go to America to create a suitable itinerary.
That's what I think the OP is saying, anyway.
There's a chink of sense in there somewhere.
The Brexiteers don't get to choose anything. Only May does.
A better analogy would be we have voted to shove something spiky up our arse because we thought not having something up our arse was the cause of all of our problems, when it was actually largely unrelated to them.
Now do we choose the cactus, the hedgehog or the comb? Either way its going to be painful, the question is how much?
The fact is that once Article 50 is triggered there is a ticking time bomb and Europe can just kick us out on day 731 leaving us to 57 negotiate trades, incorporate 317 technical regulations into our own law and appoint representatives to several WTO committees to get our voice heard as a market of 60 million while the EU, representing the largest single market in the world, poisons all the wells from now until then.
That's a valid point and puts us that the North Korea end of the Norway to North Korea spectrum but I don't think it's very likely.
We already know that four former Warsaw Pact countries will veto any deal that doesn't include some freedom of movement, but we already knew that Japan was going to pull out of Sunderland and Swindon if we didn't keep FOM anyway - That's why Johnson and the potty trained Brexiters took it off the table as soon as the polls closed and that's why Johnson and Gove split.
I get that we've put ourselves into a weak position but OK we're here now.
There are 48% of the voters, possibly more, who want freedom of movement, who want the single market, who want to be engaged and cosmopolitan. We're not going to get all of that but if just 3% of the other side want 95% of that, or 90% then that's democracy, that's Britain deciding what it's relationship with Europe and the rest of the world is going to look like and that's what the Brexit extremists said they want.
So - going back my original analogy - let's take a look at this Disneyland option
In any election, fairly conducted, you just accept the result. Thats democracy. But the referendum was not fairly conducted, and even so the result was very close. So until those basic flaws have been put right we cannot go forward, like it or not, otherwise festering sores will develop in our lives and get worse and worse. The terms of Brexit must be put before the British people in a general election before any further action is taken.
And even if we do finally decide a destination it is down to the other 27 leaders whether they allow us to go there.
Which is why ALL of the people of Britain need to be a part of the conversation.
The people insisting that a narrow victory for Brexit is a mandate to turn the UK into isolationist, protectionist pariah state like North Korea are totally wrong
Which is why ALL of the people of Britain need to be a part of the conversation.
The people insisting that a narrow victory for Brexit is a mandate to turn the UK into isolationist, protectionist pariah state like North Korea are totally wrong
who exactly is suggesting this - are you sure its not just a figment of your imagination?
who exactly is suggesting this - are you sure its not just a figment of your imagination?
I'm absolutely sure.
There are those insisting that we take no part in the Single Market, play no part in in the ECHR, have nothing to do with obligations set by UNHCR. They are a minority but everytime they are challenged the refrain of 'we won the referendum' and 'we won't accept ......' is heard.
Hence the title of this thread. The fact the UK is going to leave is now settle, the how remains up for grabs to former remainers and leavers alike
There are those insisting that we take no part in the Single Market, play no part in in the ECHR, have nothing to do with obligations set by UNHCR. They are a minority but everytime they are challenged the refrain of 'we won the referendum' and 'we won't accept ......' is heard.
Hence the title of this thread. The fact the UK is going to leave is now settle, the how remains up for grabs to former remainers and leavers alike
Settled? Don't you believe it! With no plans, time is running out for Mrs May, her ministers and the Brexit brigade. With irreconcilable differences and ignorance on all sides Brexit is looking more and more like a huge smelly cowpat on the drawing-room carpet, and Mrs May is trying to sweep it under that carpet with just her bare hands and Angel's heels. She will not come up smelling of roses.
Comments
You need to be a little bit careful with this type of statement my friend.
I'm a leaver (albeit a very very borderline one) but I am toilet trained and I know what knife and fork to use, I certainly consider myself to be 'engaged and cosmopolitan'.
Small point, but please don't patronise, not all of us are Farage supporters
Did you read what I wrote?
We are ALL leavers now. The vote happened and we're leaving - my analogy was a decision to go on holiday in Europe or in the USA, and the USA won. Next stop Heathrow and the good old US of A?
But are we flying to New York or New Mexico? Are we headed for California or Texas?
Shall we visit Niagra Falls or would it be better to visit the Grand Canyon?
What I am saying is there are people like you and it's up to you to engage us to persuade us that your chosen destination in the USA is the one we should board the plane and head for. And for the Farage camp both of us despise - going back to my analogy again - The Great Dismal Swamp in Chesapeake Bay isn't going to get a look in and they will just have to get used to it.
I think this has to be the worst analogy on DS i have ever come across. I have seriously no idea how this relates to the Brexit. We dont get to choose how we leave that is up the UK government and 27 other nations.
Maybe try to explain in just plain english what you mean and leave the analogy stuff out. ?
Ok, I'm going to attempt to explain. God help me.
There are many different types of Brexit, all varying in quality. The same can be said for Disneyland, holiday resorts, or whatever else has been mentioned in this random analogy. We've chose Brexit, but where are we going? What is Brexit? A family chose to go to America rather than to have a 'staycation', but where in America are they going?
It's the job of the Brexiteers and the UK government to choose a destination, the same as it would be for those who wanted to go to America to create a suitable itinerary.
That's what I think the OP is saying, anyway.
There's a chink of sense in there somewhere.
Mrs May seems to have convinced herself that the voters want restrictions on FOM even though 48% voted to stay in the Eu and of the leavers it wasn't even the top reason for voting leave. She has allowed those that (wrongly) say that the vote was about FOM to set the agenda. Maybe she agrees with them and is personally opposed to it.
Anyway her no staying in via the back door comments suggest that the EEA is probably out.
How good CETA + is depends on how much she gets negotiated in time. If she gets a lot done well great. If those that think 2years is not enough are correct then it could be a disaster. A temporary move to EEA / EFTA delaying restrictions on the Fom while we sort out agreements with other countries must be the safest bet and the one I would support.
The thing about FOM is that we don't know how many more people want to come and work here from Eastern Europe. Farmers Weekly has already reported (before the referendum) that the agricultural sector -the traditional start point for workers from Eastern Europe - wanted to set up a scheme for temporary workers to come in from Turkey and Russia for havest work as the supply from Eastern Europe has largely dried up. So maybe there are not many more that want to come anyway and a delay on restrictions maynot increase the numbers much anyway.
It's not the job of the Leave campaign to tell us how we Leave because Leave or Remain we're all going to be affected and we should all have a say
The Analogy was very simple and I would have thought not beyond anyone.
Choice 1 in reality - Remain or Leave
Everyone gets to Remain or Everyone gets to Leave - whichever side wins wins
Choice 1 in analogy Holiday in Europe or Holiday in USA
Everyone get to go to Europe or Everyone gets to go to the USA.
Result of Choice 1 in reality - Leave
Result of Choice 1 in analogy - USA
In the analogy, and the premise of the thread, is that we are now ALL going to the USA - and that means we ALL get a choice about where we go in the USA,
Europe is off the table but anywhere from Alaska to Hawaii is a viable choice.
In reality we have the choice of what sort of Leave we want to try for and that choice covers the whole Norway to North Korea spectrum
Hearing the Leave camp talk it's as if the former remainers have no say - that is not the case we have just as much say as the leavers.
We ARE going to leave - that is settled. How we are going to leave is our choice and that means it's a choice for ALL of us not just those who want the North Korea option.
I see! I wouldn't call a multiple step analogy 'simple' though!
Perhaps others being deliberately obtuse caused some confusion.
Anyway now I've cleared that up with your help - for which thank you
The analogy doesn't even work that well - because we seem to have made a decision to always, forever, go on holiday in America. That's because the idea of a referendum on an issue settling it, for all time, was ridiculous. All time is a very long time. And it became more ridiculous when the two votes were largely divided on age, and the balance of the votes will inevitanly change - as the older voters of today are replaced by those who were too young to vote in 2016. .
In your analogy, we now have a situation where the family decided to go to the USA. The consequence of going to the USA is that the renegotiated price of a European trip would now be too high. However. by the time we implement the choice in 2019, granny - who had the decisive vote where to go, will be dead , and the family will find their choice, every year afterwards, is determined by dead granny's vote.
Thats not a situation thats can endure - especially as the world forms into bigger and bigger economic units. At some point there's bound to be another family meeting.
Your point about there being multiple destinations possible within the US , is the right one. The problem is that the family can't go for most of them - because Granny still has a vote, and rules most of them out. Mamma May either has to tell Granny to belt up, and enjoy the visit to singlemarketville , or they are all going to end up in poorville, forever. .
My point is that although we are, de facto, all Leavers now there are 48% of us who want to have a close cultural, economic and trading relationship with Europe, we still have a say and all the 'You lost shut up' crap isn't going to fly.
Now it all makes sense.
The point is we dont have a say. I am going to try the holiday analogy.
This year the family voted if they should go on holiday or just stay at home. The family had no idea where the holiday is, how much it will cost, or even what mode of transport they are using. Granny May will choose the holiday along with her mates from the local (Euro) bingo club. The problem is most of gran's mates from the bingo dont like the family and are taking that into account when helping granny choose the location.
The family did vote to go on holiday but now granny has delayed the holiday while her and the mates choose. The holiday will now not be for another 2 years and they still have no idea where they are going. Half the family dont really want to go, some will think the holiday costs to much. Most of the family think it will be the same holiday they always go on every year and will be disappointed. However the family voted. they have no say in the matter and how to go on holiday with granny no matter what happends.
Some of the family are thinking of leaving the family and going to live with her mates in the bingo hall. Apart the one from Greece she has no money and is not much fun to play bingo with.
Is not a choice for all of us, it's a choice for none of us (unless one of us is May).
The government will try to get this stitched up before the general election and by the time any of us get a say, it will be a done deal.
We had a referendum, but now we have to just sit back and let the powers that be make the decisions. There is no mechanism for the public to have any involvement except very indirectly (letters to the press, posting on forum, street protests, etc.).
This is true for the 52% and the 48%. We are all on a magical mystery tour together and only the driver knows where we are heading (and I'm not 100% she knows either).
The Brexiteers don't get to choose anything. Only May does.
And even if we do finally decide a destination it is down to the other 27 leaders whether they allow us to go there.
Or you could stop being so stupid .
In any election, fairly conducted, you just accept the result. Thats democracy. But the referendum was not fairly conducted, and even so the result was very close. So until those basic flaws have been put right we cannot go forward, like it or not, otherwise festering sores will develop in our lives and get worse and worse. The terms of Brexit must be put before the British people in a general election before any further action is taken.
Which is why ALL of the people of Britain need to be a part of the conversation.
The people insisting that a narrow victory for Brexit is a mandate to turn the UK into isolationist, protectionist pariah state like North Korea are totally wrong
who exactly is suggesting this - are you sure its not just a figment of your imagination?
I'm absolutely sure.
There are those insisting that we take no part in the Single Market, play no part in in the ECHR, have nothing to do with obligations set by UNHCR. They are a minority but everytime they are challenged the refrain of 'we won the referendum' and 'we won't accept ......' is heard.
Hence the title of this thread. The fact the UK is going to leave is now settle, the how remains up for grabs to former remainers and leavers alike
Settled? Don't you believe it! With no plans, time is running out for Mrs May, her ministers and the Brexit brigade. With irreconcilable differences and ignorance on all sides Brexit is looking more and more like a huge smelly cowpat on the drawing-room carpet, and Mrs May is trying to sweep it under that carpet with just her bare hands and Angel's heels. She will not come up smelling of roses.
Call it brexit lite.