I think it's closed in the sense that - as far as I can tell - there is not that much social interation between the muslim and non muslim communities. Nor does there appear to be many muslim - non muslim marriages or relationships. As a result, the influence of UK culture, for want of a better expression, is not so strong, thus allowing the extremist element to hold more sway.
Although only a tiny percentage, I agree, it is nevertheless running possibly to over a 1000 - so a significant number in absolute terms. Moreover, "we" have no idea who else within the Islamic community supports them, and whether they are withholding names from the police and security services.
There is loads of interaction though - all sorts of groups and state services are involved there, which is why Channel can be effective. It really isn't as closed as people think - I lived in a predominantly Muslim area for years before I came to Wales and I interacted more with them as neighbours than I do here. I worked with Muslims too - my deputy was a very devout Muslim man and we were very close. My partner at that time was a Jewish teacher in a school with almost 100% Muslim children - I used to help out on school trips and the kids were no different to any others. I met parents and went to Eid parties etc etc. It just isn't the 'walled enclaves' that people think it is.
And of course people outside their families and immediate circles may not know - which is why Channel exists and why mosques are telling their 'congregations' to go to the authorities if they suspect There are 2.42 million Muslims in the UK - 37% are between 16 and 30... assume half of those are women... that means those 1000 'fighters' are 0.22% of Muslim males in the likely age-range. A real needle in the haystack - given that they are likely to hide their activities from even their close family and friends so it is even harder to spot them. Some of the young men have already gone to university too - frankly when I left home for Uni I could have travelled to the Moon and my parents wouldn't have realised... I can see how all of this happens and whilst I am not for a moment saying it isn't a major cause for real concern... the solutions are not as simple as 'the Muslim Community' need to do something.
Yes so we have established that I did not, in fact, post that I should be personally informed. I am not a child btw, I do know that these things won't be reported while thay are looking for him so no need to patronise me thanks.
I am not attempting to patronise you at all - I am trying to counter the view you expressed that Muslims *must* know. You on the other hand seem to think, by your use of the term 'apologist twaddle', that it is acceptable to accuse people of defending extremists and talking rubbish. So I'd be careful about throwing stones if I were you.
There is loads of interaction though - all sorts of groups and state services are involved there, which is why Channel can be effective. It really isn't as closed as people think - I lived in a predominantly Muslim area for years before I came to Wales and I interacted more with them as neighbours than I do here. I worked with Muslims too - my deputy was a very devout Muslim man and we were very close. My partner at that time was a Jewish teacher in a school with almost 100% Muslim children - I used to help out on school trips and the kids were no different to any others. I met parents and went to Eid parties etc etc. It just isn't the 'walled enclaves' that people think it is.
And of course people outside their families and immediate circles may not know - which is why Channel exists and why mosques are telling their 'congregations' to go to the authorities if they suspect There are 2.42 million Muslims in the UK - 37% are between 16 and 30... assume half of those are women... that means those 1000 'fighters' are 0.22% of Muslim males in the likely age-range. A real needle in the haystack - given that they are likely to hide their activities from even their close family and friends so it is even harder to spot them. Some of the young men have already gone to university too - frankly when I left home for Uni I could have travelled to the Moon and my parents wouldn't have realised... I can see how all of this happens and whilst I am not for a moment saying it isn't a major cause for real concern... the solutions are not as simple as 'the Muslim Community' need to do something.
There is interation on a superficial level, I agree. But I still don't think there is enough to prevent the evil influence being as pervasive as what it is. If the effect of UK culture as a whole were more widespread within the Islamic community, then such ideas would be more widely perceived by young Muslims as barmy.
I hear what you say about the needle in the haystack tendency, and I agree to some extent. But I still think the overall net effect of the community being closed off from the rest of UK society is quite noticeable. It doesn't apply to all, obviously, but it seems to pertain to most, which is regrettable.
In the years to come, I hope to see much more in the way of inter faith and inter cultural marriages/relationships between the Islamic community and the rest.
Yes so we have established that I did not, in fact, post that I should be personally informed. I am not a child btw, I do know that these things won't be reported while they are looking for him so no need to patronise me thanks.
I asked you what my "twaddle" was an apology for?
An opposing point of view and an informed reasoned explanation for that view, is not patronising.
No neither have I so I don't know why she continues to patronise us both.
I don't think that was intentional, to be fair. Jesaya is a good poster and a decent sort.
There are some on here though, who are quite deliberately misunderstanding what is said, and attempting to infer that you've made a suggestion which you haven't.
There is interation on a superficial level, I agree. But I still don't think there is enough to prevent the evil influence being as pervasive as what it is. If the effect of UK culture as a whole were more widespread within the Islamic community, then such ideas would be more widely perceived by young Muslims as barmy.
I hear what you say about the needle in the haystack tendency, and I agree to some extent. But I still think the overall net effect of the community being closed off from the rest of UK society is quite noticeable. It doesn't apply to all, obviously, but it seems to pertain to most, which is regrettable.
In the years to come, I hope to see much more in the way of inter faith and inter cultural marriages/relationships between the Islamic community and the rest.
I am not sure that inter-faith marriages will become that prevalent that quickly... resistance to marrying outside faith is strong in many communities, not just Muslim ones (a branch of my family were horrified when my cousin married a Muslim girl) - it isn't just about the Muslims changing in that respect at all. I think we (and I mean all of us, including the Muslim community) need to be thinking more about being good neighbours first. That means looking at the similarities between us instead of the differences. I don't think we are that far apart in many of our views blueblade - I just think, from my own experience, that the communities are not as closed as people think. Many young Muslims do think the extremists are 'barmy' - even those who are religious do. I was talking with a young Muslim asylum seeker recently and he was extremely angry about the attitude of these kids... and said they should consider themselves lucky to live in a country where people were not brutalised on a daily basis (as he had been) for being different.
I am not sure that inter-faith marriages will become that prevalent that quickly... resistance to marrying outside faith is strong in many communities, not just Muslim ones (a branch of my family were horrified when my cousin married a Muslim girl) - it isn't just about the Muslims changing in that respect at all. I think we (and I mean all of us, including the Muslim community) need to be thinking more about being good neighbours first
.
I agree, although I do think that the resistance to inter faith marriages is much stronger on the Muslim side of the equation.
That means looking at the similarities between us instead of the differences. I don't think we are that far apart in many of our views blueblade - I just think, from my own experience, that the communities are not as closed as people think. Many young Muslims do think the extremists are 'barmy' - even those who are religious do. I was talking with a young Muslim asylum seeker recently and he was extremely angry about the attitude of these kids... and said they should consider themselves lucky to live in a country where people were not brutalised on a daily basis (as he had been) for being different.
Thankfully many muslims are against these nutters. I just hope they do not in any way feel threatened against coming forward, and are reticent as a result.
This video is about interfaith marriage. Unsurprisingly and sadly it's ok for a man to marry outside of the faith. The message of doom and gloom strangely doesn't apply to them?
I looked for this because where I live there are two retired Muslim doctors married to Christian women, all in their late 60's, early 70's now and the men trained and have lived in England since the early 60's.
This happens in the Catholic faith to this day.
I agree, although I do think that the resistance to inter faith marriages is much stronger on the Muslim side of the equation.
Thankfully many muslims are against these nutters. I just hope they do not in any way feel threatened against coming forward, and are reticent as a result.
I think the threat is very real.
Hopefully knowing they're in a country which doesn't support the IS, the opportunity to stand together will lead to more common ground.
This video is about interfaith marriage. Unsurprisingly and sadly it's ok for a man to marry outside of the faith. The message of doom and gloom strangely doesn't apply to them?
I looked for this because where I live there are two retired Muslim doctors married to Christian women, all in their late 60's, early 70's now and the men trained and have lived in England since the early 60's.
This happens in the Catholic faith to this day.
A very interesting but frightening post. I am shocked that 1.6 million Muslims wouldn't inform the authorities if they knew an imam was radicalising young Muslims by preaching hatred about the west - it illustrates the scale of the problem we have on our hands. As for the 800,000 who wouldn't inform the police if they knew of an impending terror attack - well, that just beggars belief.
It also suggests that what some posters on this thread try their darndest to have you believe - ie, that the overwhelming majority of Muslims are entirely moderate in their views - is a load of rubbish. No wonder people increasingly see it as "us and them".
A crucial part of the process is to dismantle the "us and them" mentality that extremists use to drive a wedge between vulnerable Muslims and the rest of society.
When was the poll? All Muslims apart from ISIS supporters were probably not under threat then.
Yes I read the Theresa May article earlier. Good.
We also already have our own security agencies fully engaged in this.
Something more positive which wasn't highlighted from one of the links Kapelmeister gave.
Cross-referencing these results, NOP characterised 9% of the Muslims they surveyed as “hardcore Islamists” – people who thought that it was perfectly okay to speak in support of terrorism, but thought people should be prosecuted for insulting Islam. This small minority tallies with NOP’s other questions on terrorism – 9% of respondents said it was acceptable for religious or political groups to use violence,
What a shame this "small minority" equates to over 250,000 people as a percentage of the current muslim population.
Two hundred and fifty thousand people. That's the equivalent of the population of a city like Newcastle or Nottingham. So we can say that there are around 250,000 "hardcore Islamists" living in England. Numbers like that make the "moderates" irrelevant.
Cross-referencing these results, NOP characterised 9% of the Muslims they surveyed as “hardcore Islamists” – people who thought that it was perfectly okay to speak in support of terrorism, but thought people should be prosecuted for insulting Islam. This small minority tallies with NOP’s other questions on terrorism – 9% of respondents said it was acceptable for religious or political groups to use violence,
What a shame this "small minority" equates to over 250,000 people as a percentage of the current muslim population.
Two hundred and fifty thousand people. That's the equivalent of the population of a city like Newcastle or Nottingham. So we can say that there are around 250,000 "hardcore Islamists" living in England. Numbers like that make the "moderates" irrelevant.
I highlighted it as I assumed that was where you'd got your statistics from along with a more positive paragraph. That was 8 years ago and before the current situation. How can 9% make 91% irrelevant, assuming they all now support ISIS?
I highlighted it as I assumed that was where you'd got your statistics from along with a more positive paragraph. That was 8 years ago and before the current situation. How can 9% make 91% irrelevant, assuming they all now support ISIS?
Sorry, but the presence of over 200,000 "hardcore Islamists" in the UK cannot be spun as 'positive' no matter how hard you try.
Sorry, but the presence of over 200,000 "hardcore Islamists" in the UK cannot be spun as 'positive' no matter how hard you try.
My aim was to point out that the 9% which represents .4% of the British population are not the whole story. That leaves 91% of Muslims and 99.6% of the British public. That is assuming they were all being honest about how they would act in reality. I also can't assume they all support ISIS.
I am not attempting to gloss over the threat to our country either and I'm certain there will be more terrorist attacks.
So Mail Online (possibly others I haven't checked) have printed the names of three suspects the MI5 have in their sight, along with a picture of one of them.
Now I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but is it not some kind of risk to name them in the press before they have got their hands on them?
My aim was to point out that the 9% which represents .4% of the British population are not the whole story. That leaves 91% of Muslims and 99.6% of the British public. That is assuming they were all being honest about how they would act in reality. I also can't assume they all support ISIS.
I am not attempting to gloss over the threat to our country either and I'm certain there will be more terrorist attacks.
I know the 200,000+ "hardcore Islamists" aren't the whole story but, in many ways, they're the only story that matters because they're the ones who are a direct threat both to our life and our way of life. Many of the others are merely an indirect threat.
So Mail Online (possibly others I haven't checked) have printed the names of three suspects the MI5 have in their sight, along with a picture of one of them.
Now I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but is it not some kind of risk to name them in the press before they have got their hands on them?
It is, as arguably, it will alert them to the fact they are now known. But in reality, I'd bet they knew they'd soon be identified anyway. So I doubt it's a game changer.
It is, as arguably, it will alert them to the fact they are now known. But in reality, I'd bet they knew they'd soon be identified anyway. So I doubt it's a game changer.
I just reckon they probably would have gotten a little bit closer to catching him, if it is even one of three people named (and one pictured so they had better hope it's him), if they had some kind of element of surprise.
Now the three are possibly going to be one step ahead.
So Mail Online (possibly others I haven't checked) have printed the names of three suspects the MI5 have in their sight, along with a picture of one of them.
Now I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but is it not some kind of risk to name them in the press before they have got their hands on them?
I just reckon they probably would have gotten a little bit closer to catching him, if it is even one of three people named (and one pictured so they had better hope it's him), if they had some kind of element of surprise.
Now the three are possibly going to be one step ahead.
I wouldn't be surprised if MI5 released the information to the tabloids. They mustn't be bothered about the element of surprise. They probably want him, if it is him, to know that they're now going to start hunting him down. They don't stand a chance if the American army or whatever decides to hunt them down. Syria is tiny compared to America. Syria's even smaller than Britain.
No. Naming them will help them be identifiable and less able to travel it do anything covertly. It also means people can betray them fur a reward. What danger could it pose?
What it will mean us that anyone who captured or spots them would sell them to the US rather than tell the Uk authorities. But maybe the security services aren't that bothered by that....
No. Naming them will help them be identifiable and less able to travel it do anything covertly. It also means people can betray them fur a reward. What danger could it pose?
What it will mean us that anyone who captured or spots them would sell them to the US rather than tell the Uk authorities. But maybe the security services aren't that bothered by that....
I hope the US gets to it first as well. The US has given the death penalty to 'British' citizens before, and if they take it back to America then there's very little we'll be able to do.
Comments
There is loads of interaction though - all sorts of groups and state services are involved there, which is why Channel can be effective. It really isn't as closed as people think - I lived in a predominantly Muslim area for years before I came to Wales and I interacted more with them as neighbours than I do here. I worked with Muslims too - my deputy was a very devout Muslim man and we were very close. My partner at that time was a Jewish teacher in a school with almost 100% Muslim children - I used to help out on school trips and the kids were no different to any others. I met parents and went to Eid parties etc etc. It just isn't the 'walled enclaves' that people think it is.
And of course people outside their families and immediate circles may not know - which is why Channel exists and why mosques are telling their 'congregations' to go to the authorities if they suspect There are 2.42 million Muslims in the UK - 37% are between 16 and 30... assume half of those are women... that means those 1000 'fighters' are 0.22% of Muslim males in the likely age-range. A real needle in the haystack - given that they are likely to hide their activities from even their close family and friends so it is even harder to spot them. Some of the young men have already gone to university too - frankly when I left home for Uni I could have travelled to the Moon and my parents wouldn't have realised... I can see how all of this happens and whilst I am not for a moment saying it isn't a major cause for real concern... the solutions are not as simple as 'the Muslim Community' need to do something.
Why?.
I am not attempting to patronise you at all - I am trying to counter the view you expressed that Muslims *must* know. You on the other hand seem to think, by your use of the term 'apologist twaddle', that it is acceptable to accuse people of defending extremists and talking rubbish. So I'd be careful about throwing stones if I were you.
Well I have my thoughts which I'm not going to elaborate on here, but one of them is to reduce Americas trillion dollar debt.
There is interation on a superficial level, I agree. But I still don't think there is enough to prevent the evil influence being as pervasive as what it is. If the effect of UK culture as a whole were more widespread within the Islamic community, then such ideas would be more widely perceived by young Muslims as barmy.
I hear what you say about the needle in the haystack tendency, and I agree to some extent. But I still think the overall net effect of the community being closed off from the rest of UK society is quite noticeable. It doesn't apply to all, obviously, but it seems to pertain to most, which is regrettable.
In the years to come, I hope to see much more in the way of inter faith and inter cultural marriages/relationships between the Islamic community and the rest.
I asked you what my "twaddle" was an apology for?
An opposing point of view and an informed reasoned explanation for that view, is not patronising.
I don't think that was intentional, to be fair. Jesaya is a good poster and a decent sort.
There are some on here though, who are quite deliberately misunderstanding what is said, and attempting to infer that you've made a suggestion which you haven't.
I am not sure that inter-faith marriages will become that prevalent that quickly... resistance to marrying outside faith is strong in many communities, not just Muslim ones (a branch of my family were horrified when my cousin married a Muslim girl) - it isn't just about the Muslims changing in that respect at all. I think we (and I mean all of us, including the Muslim community) need to be thinking more about being good neighbours first. That means looking at the similarities between us instead of the differences. I don't think we are that far apart in many of our views blueblade - I just think, from my own experience, that the communities are not as closed as people think. Many young Muslims do think the extremists are 'barmy' - even those who are religious do. I was talking with a young Muslim asylum seeker recently and he was extremely angry about the attitude of these kids... and said they should consider themselves lucky to live in a country where people were not brutalised on a daily basis (as he had been) for being different.
I agree, although I do think that the resistance to inter faith marriages is much stronger on the Muslim side of the equation.
Thankfully many muslims are against these nutters. I just hope they do not in any way feel threatened against coming forward, and are reticent as a result.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l55iEIOpxyg
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/0/24338285
I looked for this because where I live there are two retired Muslim doctors married to Christian women, all in their late 60's, early 70's now and the men trained and have lived in England since the early 60's.
This happens in the Catholic faith to this day.
I think the threat is very real.
Hopefully knowing they're in a country which doesn't support the IS, the opportunity to stand together will lead to more common ground.
Thanks, that was very interesting.
From the BBC Link :
Interesting terminology.....
You highlighted this:
Cross-referencing these results, NOP characterised 9% of the Muslims they surveyed as “hardcore Islamists” – people who thought that it was perfectly okay to speak in support of terrorism, but thought people should be prosecuted for insulting Islam. This small minority tallies with NOP’s other questions on terrorism – 9% of respondents said it was acceptable for religious or political groups to use violence,
What a shame this "small minority" equates to over 250,000 people as a percentage of the current muslim population.
Two hundred and fifty thousand people. That's the equivalent of the population of a city like Newcastle or Nottingham. So we can say that there are around 250,000 "hardcore Islamists" living in England. Numbers like that make the "moderates" irrelevant.
I highlighted it as I assumed that was where you'd got your statistics from along with a more positive paragraph. That was 8 years ago and before the current situation. How can 9% make 91% irrelevant, assuming they all now support ISIS?
Sorry, but the presence of over 200,000 "hardcore Islamists" in the UK cannot be spun as 'positive' no matter how hard you try.
My aim was to point out that the 9% which represents .4% of the British population are not the whole story. That leaves 91% of Muslims and 99.6% of the British public. That is assuming they were all being honest about how they would act in reality. I also can't assume they all support ISIS.
I am not attempting to gloss over the threat to our country either and I'm certain there will be more terrorist attacks.
Now I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but is it not some kind of risk to name them in the press before they have got their hands on them?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2732393/Is-one-British-extremists-Jihadi-John-Three-potential-Islamic-State-Beatles-emerge-MI5-zeroes-murderer-U-S-journalist-James-Foley.html
I know the 200,000+ "hardcore Islamists" aren't the whole story but, in many ways, they're the only story that matters because they're the ones who are a direct threat both to our life and our way of life. Many of the others are merely an indirect threat.
It is, as arguably, it will alert them to the fact they are now known. But in reality, I'd bet they knew they'd soon be identified anyway. So I doubt it's a game changer.
I just reckon they probably would have gotten a little bit closer to catching him, if it is even one of three people named (and one pictured so they had better hope it's him), if they had some kind of element of surprise.
Now the three are possibly going to be one step ahead.
If it is him, I hope the pig is caught. I wonder if the executioner's parents know that he's part of the IS?
I wouldn't be surprised if MI5 released the information to the tabloids. They mustn't be bothered about the element of surprise. They probably want him, if it is him, to know that they're now going to start hunting him down. They don't stand a chance if the American army or whatever decides to hunt them down. Syria is tiny compared to America. Syria's even smaller than Britain.
No. Naming them will help them be identifiable and less able to travel it do anything covertly. It also means people can betray them fur a reward. What danger could it pose?
What it will mean us that anyone who captured or spots them would sell them to the US rather than tell the Uk authorities. But maybe the security services aren't that bothered by that....
I hope the US gets to it first as well. The US has given the death penalty to 'British' citizens before, and if they take it back to America then there's very little we'll be able to do.