Ceefax- Bbc2 ?

The Wardster II · 26/08/12 - 04:13

I thought CEEFAX had been killed, in replacement of the red button service.

BBC 2 is transmitting the "in vision" ? service of CEEFAX with the classic, erm, "muzak".

Any ideas?

GORTONIAN · 26/08/12 - 07:37

The Wardster II wrote: »

I thought CEEFAX had been killed, in replacement of the red button service.

BBC 2 is transmitting the "in vision" ? service of CEEFAX with the classic, erm, "muzak".

Any ideas?

As I understand it the in vision service will continue until ALL the analogue transmitters have been switched off.Obviously the desks feeding the ever decreasing analogue viewer base
What happens after that is anyone's guess.
Several of my friends who haven't yet switched say that the analogue service is much reduced feature and news wise which is sad but I suppose a natural progression.
There have been several threads on here as to what happens next..if you have a scout around Ive no doubt you will find them.
If by any chance you are a fan of the "Muzak" and by that I mean the proper stuff that went with the testcard there are numerous CDS of it available
Two of the best on the Chandos label with sleeve notes written by one of our forum members and several others from a company by the name of Apollo Sound.

[Deleted User] · 26/08/12 - 07:49

Yeah, some nights i put it on in the background and remember simpler days. Ah....

zippydoodah · 26/08/12 - 10:51

I think people assume Ceefax was over when the main London transmitter did the digital transition. Another reason why the UK is so London-centric

lundavra · 26/08/12 - 11:07

zippydoodah wrote: »

I think people assume Ceefax was over when the main London transmitter did the digital transition. Another reason why the UK is so London-centric

It was over as far as the viewers in each region were concerned when they had DSO, nothing to do with being "London-centric". Viewers here in Scotland would have thought CEEFAX had ended a couple of years ago so is it Scotland-centric?

The fact that CEEFAX in Vision continues is irrelevant because it is just a slideshow display that can be done in many ways, it is not teletext or CEEFAX when the viewer does not have the ability to select pages.

There is no reason why a slideshow of the pages on the horrible Digital Text could not do the same job out of hours.

zippydoodah · 26/08/12 - 11:11

Ceefax closing down only got the big oomph in coverage when it went in London. Twitter went mad over it on that day even Newsnight did some tribute end credits in the style of Ceefax when London went digital only.

mossy2103 · 26/08/12 - 12:40

lundavra wrote: »

It was over as far as the viewers in each region were concerned when they had DSO, nothing to do with being "London-centric". Viewers here in Scotland would have thought CEEFAX had ended a couple of years ago so is it Scotland-centric?

The fact that CEEFAX in Vision continues is irrelevant because it is just a slideshow display that can be done in many ways, it is not teletext or CEEFAX when the viewer does not have the ability to select pages.

There is no reason why a slideshow of the pages on the horrible Digital Text could not do the same job out of hours.

Ceefax In Vision was, as I recall, an actual page containing a cycle of subpages that you could call up in native Ceefax. As implemented, Digital Text does not seem to have this ability to cycle. As Digital text is a technology designed for one purpose, I would imagine that the BBC will simply replace the Ceefax In Vision slot with another repeated programme or with an extension to the BBC News simulcast. But I am certain that Ceefax In Vision will die very soon after the final DSO, as the kit that runs it will be too old to maintain, and does not integrate too well with the newer systems that are/will be in place.

technologist · 26/08/12 - 12:42

- it is most likely that the automatic break filling technology -hedlines and things will be used to replace Ceefax in Vision...
after all Red bee operte that as well for the BBC.

BTW there is nothing to stop Digital text doing something simalar - but there are not too many MHEG5 invsion boxes with SDI output ! unlike the MRG kit used for ceefax ..

Dan's Dad · 26/08/12 - 12:49

technologist wrote: »

- it is most likely that the automatic break filling technology -

isn't that what fluorine is supposed to do for your teeth?

I'll go away now!

Mark C · 26/08/12 - 13:08

technologist wrote: »

- it is most likely that the automatic break filling technology -hedlines and things will be used to replace Ceefax in Vision...
after all Red bee operte that as well for the BBC.

BTW there is nothing to stop Digital text doing something simalar - but there are not too many MHEG5 invsion boxes with SDI output ! unlike the MRG kit used for ceefax ..

What do the European PSBs use ? They used to have their teletext services 'in vision' over night just as we still do with Ceefax, in recent years there have still been rolling pages of info, the data from which seems to be derived from their web pages. Similar style to ITV Nightscreen

Though SVT2 still gloriously shows a 16:9 version of PM5544 at times.

MooWow! · 26/08/12 - 13:15

Mark C wrote: »

What do the European PSBs use ? They used to have their teletext services 'in vision' over night just as we still do with Ceefax, in recent years there have still been rolling pages of info, the data from which seems to be derived from their web pages. Similar style to ITV Nightscreen

Though SVT2 still gloriously shows a 16:9 version of PM5544 at times.

ITV night screen looks like a powerpoint presentation

mossy2103 · 26/08/12 - 13:20

MooWow! wrote: »

ITV night screen looks like a powerpoint presentation

A bad one at that.

alcockell · 26/08/12 - 13:21

Hmm- to think that Pages From Ceefax (as was) acted as a promotional tool for the service back in the 70s...

Simon Rodgers · 26/08/12 - 13:25

GORTONIAN wrote: »

As I understand it the in vision service will continue until ALL the analogue transmitters have been switched off.Obviously the desks feeding the ever decreasing analogue viewer base
What happens after that is anyone's guess.
Several of my friends who haven't yet switched say that the analogue service is much reduced feature and news wise which is sad but I suppose a natural progression.
There have been several threads on here as to what happens next..if you have a scout around Ive no doubt you will find them.
If by any chance you are a fan of the "Muzak" and by that I mean the proper stuff that went with the testcard there are numerous CDS of it available
Two of the best on the Chandos label with sleeve notes written by one of our forum members and several others from a company by the name of Apollo Sound.

My dad was telling me before we were forced over that the analogue Ceefax was not getting updated regularly.

zippydoodah · 26/08/12 - 13:32

MooWow! wrote: »

ITV night screen looks like a powerpoint presentation

Mind you when it first started in 1998 it was done by a teletext generator from Intelfax (the company behind 4-Tel)

Simon Rodgers · 26/08/12 - 13:34

mossy2103 wrote: »

Ceefax In Vision was, as I recall, an actual page containing a cycle of subpages that you could call up in native Ceefax. As implemented, Digital Text does not seem to have this ability to cycle. As Digital text is a technology designed for one purpose, I would imagine that the BBC will simply replace the Ceefax In Vision slot with another repeated programme or with an extension to the BBC News simulcast. But I am certain that Ceefax In Vision will die very soon after the final DSO, as the kit that runs it will be too old to maintain, and does not integrate too well with the newer systems that are/will be in place.

Why not just use pages of digital news with a bit of muzak, etc?

Or maybe the test card? Poor Carole Herseecould finally be gone after so long.

lundavra · 26/08/12 - 13:34

mossy2103 wrote: »

Ceefax In Vision was, as I recall, an actual page containing a cycle of subpages that you could call up in native Ceefax. As implemented, Digital Text does not seem to have this ability to cycle. As Digital text is a technology designed for one purpose, I would imagine that the BBC will simply replace the Ceefax In Vision slot with another repeated programme or with an extension to the BBC News simulcast. But I am certain that Ceefax In Vision will die very soon after the final DSO, as the kit that runs it will be too old to maintain, and does not integrate too well with the newer systems that are/will be in place.

Many years I played with some Videotext systems, I can remember that there was an option to make up a slideshow which operated very like CEEFAX in Vision.

I would not thought it would be difficult to make a similar system with Digital Text, if it is not already in the software.

As you write I can't see them keeping CEEFAX itself running just for occasional fillers out of hours.

I would still love to see some figures on usage of CEEFAX and Digital Text, I have probably not used Digital Text for a month or so and then only briefly whereas I used CEEFAX every day and Page 150 was normally on "Cancel".

mossy2103 · 26/08/12 - 13:48

lundavra wrote: »

I would not thought it would be difficult to make a similar system with Digital Text, if it is not already in the software.

As you write I can't see them keeping CEEFAX itself running just for occasional fillers out of hours.

Likewise, I cannot see them spending any time, effort or money on replicating it from Digital text, and certainly not for the few hours a week where it would be used as filler. The BBC should be concentrating its funds on more important things, not something that only a few people will probably care about.

My region lost Ceefax September last year. I've moved on. I reckon that most of the DSO'd UK has done the same.

Time to let it, and its late-night filler derivative, go to its grave peacefully and without fuss.

Mark C · 26/08/12 - 18:51

Winston_1 wrote: »

European PSBs have not got rid of their teletext services. They are still available using their DTT boxes.

Yes they are, but that's not answering the question I asked.

They don't render the pages into the traditional '1974 spec Teletext' format.

lundavra · 26/08/12 - 22:50

mossy2103 wrote: »

... Time to let it, and its late-night filler derivative, go to its grave peacefully and without fuss.

Are you referring to CEEFAX or Digital Text or both?

Simon Rodgers · 27/08/12 - 00:52

lundavra wrote: »

Many years I played with some Videotext systems, I can remember that there was an option to make up a slideshow which operated very like CEEFAX in Vision.

I would not thought it would be difficult to make a similar system with Digital Text, if it is not already in the software.

As you write I can't see them keeping CEEFAX itself running just for occasional fillers out of hours.

I would still love to see some figures on usage of CEEFAX and Digital Text, I have probably not used Digital Text for a month or so and then only briefly whereas I used CEEFAX every day and Page 150 was normally on "Cancel".

It would be nice if Ceefax could just be kept going, on Digital. Some countries even have their teletext service online, why can't the BBC do that?

mossy2103 · 27/08/12 - 07:45

lundavra wrote: »

Are you referring to CEEFAX or Digital Text or both?

Ceefax

mossy2103 · 27/08/12 - 07:48

Simon Rodgers wrote: »

It would be nice if Ceefax could just be kept going, on Digital. Some countries even have their teletext service online, why can't the BBC do that?

Probably due to the Ceefax kit being old, and maybe it does not integrate at all well with the more modern systems & technology. In this country, it is moribund.

(I hope that you see the comical side of this next bit,, I don't intend it to be anything other than humorous).

And why have it online when there is a much better alternative already online? An alternative with proper readable fonts, formatting, fancy graphics, and even (gasp!) photographs?

It also carries much more information. You might have heard of it:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/tv/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/a-z/

Pretty feature-rich don't you think?

technologist · 27/08/12 - 07:49

Simon Rodgers wrote: »

It would be nice if Ceefax could just be kept going, on Digital. Some countries even have their teletext service online, why can't the BBC do that?

I think you have answered your own question there.
in the UK with Ceefax/ Oracle since 1974, it was not surprising that the regulator ITC and eth BBC etc pointed out that digital Tv probably needed something more than A text service - and thus MHEG5 as the only open standard was proposed/ mandated....
but then the BBC has a fledgling but still very successful website - and it was v good for news etc ..

Also in the UK Teletext as successor to Oracle - had most of the Holiday bookings made as a result of its pages etc and was very very successful.

BUT the web is far better than any text service could be - and thus eyeballs have gone to the web - leaving only some things on the text service.
Also some feeds e.eg airports arrivals refused to supply as they wanted eyeballs on their websites....

In the early days of web many non UK Broadcasters had to start an electronic news service -only to discover that they had one - their teletext service - and so they put them on the web .. rather than wrote longer pieces specially...

Teletext changes the way in which some many things were done - from technical collaboration (precursor of DVB) through to making the UK the most "digital" country in the world (in the mid 1980s) through having red button and more than normal; linear channels on your Tv .... and into game on the TV for your children ...
A great British success - superseded by another great British Invention the world wide web.

lundavra · 27/08/12 - 09:53

mossy2103 wrote: »

Probably due to the Ceefax kit being old, and maybe it does not integrate at all well with the more modern systems & technology. In this country, it is moribund.

(I hope that you see the comical side of this next bit,, I don't intend it to be anything other than humorous).

And why have it online when there is a much better alternative already online? An alternative with proper readable fonts, formatting, fancy graphics, and even (gasp!) photographs?

It also carries much more information. You might have heard of it:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/
....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/a-z/

Pretty feature-rich don't you think?

The kit will be old but I would thought a digital version could share the same system as that producing digital text and give two outputs in the datastream going out to the transmitters.

The BBC online service provides a different service, the whole point of teletext that you could view on the same screen as the television programmes. Not everyone has a computer running near their TV and teletext was integrated into one system controlled by the same remote control as the TV. Digital Text promised wonderful things but whenever I have looked at it in the past I cannot seen any improvement on teletext just a slower system that is not as convenient to use. A month or so ago there were some programme changes so I thought I would look on Digital Text to try and find out what was happening (the EPG was not up to data and has a poor layout), I was surprised to find that the TV schedules did not seem to be on Digital Text.

Hey there!

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