Right well to engage in a bit of ad hominem against myself I am another leftie atheist.
But I have actually read the gospels and it completely baffles me how any Christian can vote for the Tories. Jesus cannot stand the rich, the complacent and the prejudiced. In other words he hates all the Tories stand for. He loves the poor, the marginalised and the outcasts. In other words he loves all the people the Tories hate. Baffling really.
As to the Church's role in political debate well I am not going to give them much credence on the grounds that they are in hock to a load of mumbo-jumbo. But given their presence across the whole of society I am probably going to take a bit more notice of them than the press barons, such as the pornographer, Richard Desmond, the Aussie scandalmonger, Rupert Murdoch and of course, Harold Jonathan Esmond Vere Harmsworth, who owns the Daily Mail, fact fans. Somehow I think we will be obliged to hear their obedient editorial lapdogs telling us all to vote Tory before the general election.
So in a political landscape dominated by a right-wing media elite, it is fair enough to allow the church to join in.
It must be a while since we had thread attempting to allocate Greed, Selfishness, Altruism, Empathy, etc to Left or Right positions.......
I think sometimes stereotypes can be true.
But we must not be hasty in making rash assumptions about the present day voting intentions of Jesus, Mother Teresa, Gandhi........
I think it is quite possible those 3 would be very strident calling for an Eu Referendum and a 40p top rate of tax.
It must be a while since we had thread attempting to allocate Greed, Selfishness, Altruism, Empathy, etc to Left or Right positions.......
I think sometimes stereotypes can be true.
But we must not be hasty in making rash assumptions about the present day voting intentions of Jesus, Mother Teresa, Gandhi........
Jesus was an asylum seeker (the flight into Egypt), a banker basher (throwing the money changers out of the temple) opposed to tax avoidance (render onto Caesar...) who gave out free food and medical treatment before being executed in a miscarriage of justice, not terribly right wing I'd say.
So not irrelevant at all, then but, rather, an important and relevant fabric to our society.
I have yet to see an atheist organisation doing such work.
Hmmm.
Given that you both are amongst some of the most vocal Christians on this website, it puzzles me as to why you only seem to want to discuss this from an angle where you can have a go at atheists.
SULLA is a big Conversative supporter, and nethwen seems to staunchly support UKIP. So why are you so out of step from the political aspirations of the leaders of the CoE?
Good for the church. Attacking the most vulnerable in society isn't very Christian-like! I'm not religious myself but glad to see them speaking out about the increasing inequality and problems this society is facing. The way the disabled and poor have been treated by the coalition just isn't right and yet they still want to go further.
Oh dear what a pity doesn't really matter conservatives is upset by criticism.
What are people meant to do Shutup and say nothing about the vile disgusting conservatives.
Why is it the conservatives think that they are above criticism and attack people.
They shouldn't be in the House of Lords. And I can't take their moralising seriously when I think of the appalling homophobic comments coming from them during the gay marriage debate.
Exactly
There's too many vocal homophobes and rigt-wingers and yet the church is supposedly left-leaning
Makes her look like like a rent-a-gob/quote type as she is not correct
Plus this idea of atheists nit being charitable is relevant or truthful because? Atheists don't need to give to any particular charity or get recognition
Good for the church. Attacking the most vulnerable in society isn't very Christian-like! I'm not religious myself but glad to see them speaking out about the increasing inequality and problems this society is facing. The way the disabled and poor have been treated by the coalition just isn't right and yet they still want to go further.
The day the Church of England stops discriminating against gay people will be the day they can morally criticise others.
I agree, the church is an irrelevancy these days except for the charitable work they do.
Until we have stories about 'people of other religions' in the UK 'not wanting to mix, or all those "They've banned Christmas!" people getting outraged. You'll see them here in 6 weeks shouting "they've banned Easter for fear of upsetting certain types".
Jesus was an asylum seeker (the flight into Egypt), a banker basher (throwing the money changers out of the temple) opposed to tax avoidance (render onto Caesar...) who gave out free food and medical treatment before being executed in a miscarriage of justice, not terribly right wing I'd say.
Wasn't there something about "screw the poor - wash my feet woman"? I'm paraphrasing a bit obviously
The C of E have every right to spout what ever rubbish it wants, and we in the west are free to ignore it and ridicule it. However this has the wet and woolly hands of Welby all over it, and yet more proof that Sentamu should have been the Archbishop of Canterbury.
This is really very inappropriate for the established church - as well as a charity getting business rates discounts and other incentives from the state.
Where did Jesus argue for a state run benefits system or that the Jewish people would get better off part of a superstate i.e. The Roman Empire. He did neither.
Christianity is about people as individuals doing good works and helping people - not governments!
In history the church has always been used to put order into the subjects of the country.
This just shows how 'religion' is always in flux, more usually to the right in order for themselves just to survive. (there have been extremely few martyrs like Thomas More or dare I say it, Jesus)
Who would have thunk it that 'Christian Values' is now a 'left wing thing'.
Yet in the states the Christian Right promote Creationism and such like as being intrinsic to Christianity.
Or is Creationism just some dodgy right wing obscuration thing, I'm now starting to wonder.
Given that you both are amongst some of the most vocal Christians on this website, it puzzles me as to why you only seem to want to discuss this from an angle where you can have a go at atheists.
SULLA is a big Conversative supporter, and nethwen seems to staunchly support UKIP. So why are you so out of step from the political aspirations of the leaders of the CoE?
This is really very inappropriate for the established church - as well as a charity getting business rates discounts and other incentives from the state.
Where did Jesus argue for a state run benefits system or that the Jewish people would get better off part of a superstate i.e. The Roman Empire. He did neither.
Christianity is about people as individuals doing good works and helping people - not governments!
The Trussell Trust who run the food banks are linked to the church. If they see an increase of users due to welfare reform they have every right to comment on welfare reform.
If I decide to stop a standing order to a charity, I don't think of it as an attack on the poor.
When a government realises that it cannot go on borrowing money to give it away in welfare payments, that is not an "attack" on the most vulnerable people. If the government runs out of money altogether, who will suffer then?
Equally before the Government starts to demonise and attack the poorest on the basis of its own poverty it has a duty to ensure that collects all of the taxation due to it and follows a tax policy that doesn't have so many holes in it as to render it worthless.
Also one of the reasons we're still borrowing so much more money than anticipated is that despite record employment and a 700,000 fall in unemployment rate income tax receipts are some £25 billion a year less than Osborne forecast, even accounting for the increase in personal allowances. Do you think the systematic policy of driving down wages, endorsed by the Government might have actually backfired?
By the way that's not a "tax the rich" argument, that's a "I have no option but to pay my taxes (PAYE) so the rules should be exactly the same no matter who you are" argument.
Comments
But I have actually read the gospels and it completely baffles me how any Christian can vote for the Tories. Jesus cannot stand the rich, the complacent and the prejudiced. In other words he hates all the Tories stand for. He loves the poor, the marginalised and the outcasts. In other words he loves all the people the Tories hate. Baffling really.
As to the Church's role in political debate well I am not going to give them much credence on the grounds that they are in hock to a load of mumbo-jumbo. But given their presence across the whole of society I am probably going to take a bit more notice of them than the press barons, such as the pornographer, Richard Desmond, the Aussie scandalmonger, Rupert Murdoch and of course, Harold Jonathan Esmond Vere Harmsworth, who owns the Daily Mail, fact fans. Somehow I think we will be obliged to hear their obedient editorial lapdogs telling us all to vote Tory before the general election.
So in a political landscape dominated by a right-wing media elite, it is fair enough to allow the church to join in.
I think sometimes stereotypes can be true.
But we must not be hasty in making rash assumptions about the present day voting intentions of Jesus, Mother Teresa, Gandhi........
I think it is quite possible those 3 would be very strident calling for an Eu Referendum and a 40p top rate of tax.
Jesus was an asylum seeker (the flight into Egypt), a banker basher (throwing the money changers out of the temple) opposed to tax avoidance (render onto Caesar...) who gave out free food and medical treatment before being executed in a miscarriage of justice, not terribly right wing I'd say.
Maybe they are trying to attract muslim votes because muslims also seem to be outraged about something or other most of the time.:p
I mean c'mon.
The only difference between the church and Labour is the mythical provider they believe to be the solution to all our needs.
God vs money tree
;-)
It was the non conformist denominations who were the "loony left" of the religious spectrum.
I guess times have changed
Hmmm.
Given that you both are amongst some of the most vocal Christians on this website, it puzzles me as to why you only seem to want to discuss this from an angle where you can have a go at atheists.
SULLA is a big Conversative supporter, and nethwen seems to staunchly support UKIP. So why are you so out of step from the political aspirations of the leaders of the CoE?
Who has got it wrong? You or them?
Oh dear what a pity doesn't really matter conservatives is upset by criticism.
What are people meant to do Shutup and say nothing about the vile disgusting conservatives.
Why is it the conservatives think that they are above criticism and attack people.
Exactly
There's too many vocal homophobes and rigt-wingers and yet the church is supposedly left-leaning
Makes her look like like a rent-a-gob/quote type as she is not correct
Plus this idea of atheists nit being charitable is relevant or truthful because? Atheists don't need to give to any particular charity or get recognition
The day the Church of England stops discriminating against gay people will be the day they can morally criticise others.
Go get em Tories, the party who always claim ownership of 'morality', at last until things become 'taxing'.
:rolleyes:
Until we have stories about 'people of other religions' in the UK 'not wanting to mix, or all those "They've banned Christmas!" people getting outraged. You'll see them here in 6 weeks shouting "they've banned Easter for fear of upsetting certain types".
How about Oxfam and UNICEF for starters!!!
Poppycock. They are well within their rights to comment on any matters they wish.
Wasn't there something about "screw the poor - wash my feet woman"? I'm paraphrasing a bit obviously
Where did Jesus argue for a state run benefits system or that the Jewish people would get better off part of a superstate i.e. The Roman Empire. He did neither.
Christianity is about people as individuals doing good works and helping people - not governments!
This just shows how 'religion' is always in flux, more usually to the right in order for themselves just to survive. (there have been extremely few martyrs like Thomas More or dare I say it, Jesus)
Who would have thunk it that 'Christian Values' is now a 'left wing thing'.
Yet in the states the Christian Right promote Creationism and such like as being intrinsic to Christianity.
Or is Creationism just some dodgy right wing obscuration thing, I'm now starting to wonder.
Do you mean Conservative ?
I don't belong to the Cof E
The Trussell Trust who run the food banks are linked to the church. If they see an increase of users due to welfare reform they have every right to comment on welfare reform.
They are legitimate stakeholders.
And ones own knowledge. Back then I guess it was really just 'the Tory Party at play'.
Equally before the Government starts to demonise and attack the poorest on the basis of its own poverty it has a duty to ensure that collects all of the taxation due to it and follows a tax policy that doesn't have so many holes in it as to render it worthless.
Also one of the reasons we're still borrowing so much more money than anticipated is that despite record employment and a 700,000 fall in unemployment rate income tax receipts are some £25 billion a year less than Osborne forecast, even accounting for the increase in personal allowances. Do you think the systematic policy of driving down wages, endorsed by the Government might have actually backfired?
By the way that's not a "tax the rich" argument, that's a "I have no option but to pay my taxes (PAYE) so the rules should be exactly the same no matter who you are" argument.