No - I meant I wouldn't agree with Northern politicians and representatives from loyalist parties etc. boycotting a commemoration if they're not going to commemorate the event HERE, instead.
I wouldn't want two commemorations - here and there - but better that than Sinn Fein 's potential ignoring of the British dead. Or worse still - demonising them.
It didn't have a lot to do with here though. If people want to remember it, fine. I just think Unionist politicians need to be careful to not fall into a trap.
It didn't have a lot to do with here though. If people want to remember it, fine. I just think Unionist politicians need to be careful to not fall into a trap.
True - but the directly-segue'ing War of Independence and Civil War did...and a lot of the Free State's protestant population did end up here in the North within a few years.
True - but the directly-segue'ing War of Independence and Civl War did...and a lot of the Free State's protestant population did end up here in the North within a few years.
The South was a Conservative Catholic country once the Free State came into existence and then the Republic. There seems to be this myth that it was some sort of liberal, freedom thinking place.
With the Magdalene scandal hitting the headlines recently, even slavery too and oppression to women.
You can see why Protestants left. Northern Ireland wasn't the only state at the time to have its problems. The biggest mistake Northern Ireland made as a state was treating Catholics bad.
The history books would look at the Republic in a much harsher light now if they did.
The South was a Coonservative Catholic country once the Free State came into existence and then the Republic. There seems to be this myth that it was some sort of liberal, freedom thinking place.
With the Magdalene scandal hitting the headlines recently, even slavery too and oppression to women.
You can see why Protestants left. Northern Ireland wasn't the only state at the time to have its problems. The biggest mistake Northern Ireland made as a state was treating Catholics bad.
The history books would look at the Republic in a much harsher light now if they did.
God knows the Free State was far from perfect, but I do not think it comes anywhere near to the dysfunctional basket case that was/is the `north`.
God knows the Free State was far from perfect, but I do not think it comes anywhere near to the dysfunctional basket case that was/is the `north`.
Most of the Protestants left to get away from it.
"There was an Irish solution that had no reference to any other country; a solution that came from our traditional attitude to life that was Irish and Catholic. That was the solution they were going to stand for so long as they were Catholic" . Four years later, in his St. Patrick's Day address to the nation, de Valera made it quite clear that Ireland was a Catholic nation - "Since the coming of St Patrick 1500 years ago Ireland has been a Christian and a Catholic nation" and, he concluded, "she will remain a Catholic nation". There was no mistaking where de Valera stood - Ireland was, and would continue to be, a Catholic nation."
This is a great idea from the Irish government - remembering what we as Irish people have gone through but not being bound by it. Our decade of remembrance is not a celebration - anything but!... It is a sobering reminder of how me being able to post this in a free independant Ireland was achieved.
The nation should fall at the knees to remember these men and who gave their lives in them pursuit of a simple God given right - self determination, in this case away from a brutal empire.
The next decade will include many many anniversaries associated with this period in Irish history... From the 1916 rising to the war of independence, Anglo-Irish agreement and subsequent Civil war. It is only right that the royal family, British government and unionists are represented to stand as equals beside the Irish people to remember this period in our shared history. To remember our history and look forward to our future together - as equals and friends side by side.
A country which spent most of it's existence effectively as a theocracy where people rushed to leave it.
I assume you are referring to the republic? .. If you are then you are sadly right to degree, DeValera and the Catholic church stifled the prospect of economic expansion. It was easier to shout across the Irish sea attacking Britain then to take responsibility.. Ireland only stood out from the shadows as DeValera took leave and Sean Lemass took charge, in his tenure he did more for economic expansion then DeValera did since partition - possibly he did more then his predecessors combined also. We have the problem here that emigration is a safely valve and has been since the inception of the state.
"There was an Irish solution that had no reference to any other country; a solution that came from our traditional attitude to life that was Irish and Catholic. That was the solution they were going to stand for so long as they were Catholic" . Four years later, in his St. Patrick's Day address to the nation, de Valera made it quite clear that Ireland was a Catholic nation - "Since the coming of St Patrick 1500 years ago Ireland has been a Christian and a Catholic nation" and, he concluded, "she will remain a Catholic nation". There was no mistaking where de Valera stood - Ireland was, and would continue to be, a Catholic nation."
All of that is correct, but there is very little evidence that Protestant people were discriminated against in the new Free State, apart from some isolated incidents perhaps. They were free to go about their business and there's no evidence of discrimination against them in terms of work and housing.
The best evidence we have today is that elderly Protestants living in the Republic today say they never felt discriminated against, and there was no crisis of identity for them either....they felt as Irish as their Catholic neighbours.
The South was a Conservative Catholic country once the Free State came into existence and then the Republic. There seems to be this myth that it was some sort of liberal, freedom thinking place.
With the Magdalene scandal hitting the headlines recently, even slavery too and oppression to women.
You can see why Protestants left. Northern Ireland wasn't the only state at the time to have its problems. The biggest mistake Northern Ireland made as a state was treating Catholics bad.
Actually - I was thinking more of the campaign of intimidation Southern protestants during the War of Independence, the burnings-out etc...! Which got distinctly worse in Anti-Treaty-held parts of the Free State for the duration of the Civil War!
The best evidence we have today is that elderly Protestants living in the Republic today say they never felt discriminated against, and there was no crisis of identity for them either....they felt as Irish as their Catholic neighbours.
There were indeed many who didn't suffer any intimidation, and did remain...but the cross-Border "shared" communites in Fermanagh and South Armagh for instance were devastated, especially as a result of the Irregular's cross-border attacks etc...not "helped" by protestants joining the Special Constabularies, and particularly in the case of the "B"s - taking the field against the Irregulars!..which of course led to an upwards spiral of intimidation....
I'm tempted to say that the ones who were around until old age to say they didn't feel intimidated WERE by definition the ones who didn't experience any! :eek:
All of that is correct, but there is very little evidence that Protestant people were discriminated against in the new Free State, apart from some isolated incidents perhaps. They were free to go about their business and there's no evidence of discrimination against them in terms of work and housing.
The best evidence we have today is that elderly Protestants living in the Republic today say they never felt discriminated against, and there was no crisis of identity for them either....they felt as Irish as their Catholic neighbours.
In every country, there should be openness about what has transpired even if the facts uncovered are unsavoury or embarrassing.
For example, the post conflict attempt in the early days of the Republic to forge a monolithic national identity had the practical effect of excluding minorities whether they were Protestants, members of the Traveller community or Jews. There is no shortage of peer reviewed sociology papers and PhD theses out there that testify to that effect.
Indeed, the fact that so many Protestants migrated out of the Republic is a clear indication that there was a problem. In particular, there were cases of outright persecution and intimidation particularly in border counties with the North such as Leitrim, Cavan and Monaghan which forced migration into Northern Ireland.
Source = Ireland, 1912-1985: Politics and Society, Professor J J Lee, formerly Professor of History at Cork University, Republic of Ireland.
All of that is correct, but there is very little evidence that Protestant people were discriminated against in the new Free State, apart from some isolated incidents perhaps. They were free to go about their business and there's no evidence of discrimination against them in terms of work and housing.
The best evidence we have today is that elderly Protestants living in the Republic today say they never felt discriminated against, and there was no crisis of identity for them either....they felt as Irish as their Catholic neighbours.
Look at the Civil war and the burning out of Protestants. The Republic was not exactly a harm house for Protestants at that time.
In every country, there should be openness about what has transpired even if the facts uncovered are unsavoury or embarrassing.
For example, the post conflict attempt in the early days of the Republic to forge a monolithic national identity had the practical effect of excluding minorities whether they were Protestants, members of the Traveller community or Jews. There is no shortage of peer reviewed sociology papers and PhD theses out there that testify to that effect.
Indeed, the fact that so many Protestants migrated out of the Republic is a clear indication that there was a problem. In particular, there were cases of outright persecution and intimidation particularly in border counties with the North such as Leitrim, Cavan and Monaghan which forced migration into Northern Ireland.
Source = Ireland, 1912-1985: Politics and Society, Professor J J Lee, formerly Professor of History at Cork University, Republic of Ireland.
Certainly, but this would have been an issue for minorities right across Europe at that time. It was a very harsh era, and anyone who didn't fit in with the majority would have found things problematic. It would be quite wrong to single out the new Irish state for criticism.
Look at the Civil war and the burning out of Protestants. The Republic was not exactly a harm house for Protestants at that time.
Those incidents definitely happened and have been well documented by historians, but the civil war was a brutal period in Irish history. There were many incidences also of atrocities being carried out by Catholics on other Catholics (who were on opposing sides of course).
We do know that life in the Republic settled down from the 1930s onwards and that, in the main, Protestants were left in peace and were not actively discrimimated against, by either the state or their Catholic neighbours.
Certainly, but this would have been an issue for minorities right across Europe at that time. It was a very harsh era, and anyone who didn't fit in with the majority would have found things problematic. It would be quite wrong to single out the new Irish state for criticism.
Indeed, Eurostar, and what transpired in the Republic in those days should not be forgotten or dismissed. These days, the country's been transformed out of its insularity and I have a great deal of respect for Seán Lemass who was instrumental in the initial modernising and opening up of Irish society (as well as his constructive overtures to the North).
A country which spent most of it's existence effectively as a theocracy where people rushed to leave it.
Still better than the tuppence ha`penny sectarian basket case in the north eastern part of the nation. With Orange Order members in perpetual governance.
Still better than the tuppence ha`penny sectarian basket case in the north eastern part of the nation. With Orange Order members in perpetual governance.
The Orange Order of course has never been in Government, as you know.
Of course some MLA's are Orange Order members.
Of course some Sinn Fien MLA's are/ were/ still are IRA members.;)
All of that is correct, but there is very little evidence that Protestant people were discriminated against in the new Free State, apart from some isolated incidents perhaps. They were free to go about their business and there's no evidence of discrimination against them in terms of work and housing.
The best evidence we have today is that elderly Protestants living in the Republic today say they never felt discriminated against, and there was no crisis of identity for them either....they felt as Irish as their Catholic neighbours.
There was evidence of protestant families being targeted in parts of West Cork after partition - much was never talked about even to this day but in reality protestants were treated as equals after partition in a very harsh Ireland.
There are lots of protestant families still living here, all of which I know are deadly proud of their Irishness and would wrap the tri-colour around themselves as any other Irish person...I went to national school with about 5 protestant children out of a class of 20... the only way any of us knew they were protestant was when it came to communion where they stepped to the side. It was never ever something we cared about or mentioned.
No.
The UVF stopped their campaign when the IRA stopped.
The IRA should have ceased long before they did.
Pure and evil bloodlust made them carry it on.
The UVF also gave birth to the biggest gang of psychopathic serial killers called the Shankill Butchers, who skinned old drunken men alive at night with meat cleavers and butcher knives, simply because they were Catholic.
As for the idea the UVF stopped their campaign. You clearly know absolutely nothing. Go into the Shankill tonight, or Mount Vernon and ask if the UVF is still about. They still control Loyalist areas through fear and giving punishment beatings. They still run East Belfast and had an arms dump found only last week, so no they haven't stopped their campaign. As I said you clearly know nothing. Lets not speak about topics you know nothing about now, ok?
Not all Unionists.
The Loyalists killings have stopped, not so the Republican murders.
Please stop talking nonsense. Loyalists, particularly the UVF killed Bobby Moffett (one of their own) because he stood up against the UVF Brigade staff over an issue. As I have stated now three times you are clearly uneducated on the matter, and probably not even from the country, yet are trying to act as if you know this and that. Its pathetically laughable.
Comments
It's not to 2016 anyway.
Unlike the true stories told about King Billy? White horse...good looking.....straight.....;)
True - but the directly-segue'ing War of Independence and Civil War did...and a lot of the Free State's protestant population did end up here in the North within a few years.
That is indeed true.
True, he had a horse, of course, of course....:D
With the Magdalene scandal hitting the headlines recently, even slavery too and oppression to women.
You can see why Protestants left. Northern Ireland wasn't the only state at the time to have its problems. The biggest mistake Northern Ireland made as a state was treating Catholics bad.
The history books would look at the Republic in a much harsher light now if they did.
God knows the Free State was far from perfect, but I do not think it comes anywhere near to the dysfunctional basket case that was/is the `north`.
"There was an Irish solution that had no reference to any other country; a solution that came from our traditional attitude to life that was Irish and Catholic. That was the solution they were going to stand for so long as they were Catholic" . Four years later, in his St. Patrick's Day address to the nation, de Valera made it quite clear that Ireland was a Catholic nation - "Since the coming of St Patrick 1500 years ago Ireland has been a Christian and a Catholic nation" and, he concluded, "she will remain a Catholic nation". There was no mistaking where de Valera stood - Ireland was, and would continue to be, a Catholic nation."
The nation should fall at the knees to remember these men and who gave their lives in them pursuit of a simple God given right - self determination, in this case away from a brutal empire.
The next decade will include many many anniversaries associated with this period in Irish history... From the 1916 rising to the war of independence, Anglo-Irish agreement and subsequent Civil war. It is only right that the royal family, British government and unionists are represented to stand as equals beside the Irish people to remember this period in our shared history. To remember our history and look forward to our future together - as equals and friends side by side.
All of that is correct, but there is very little evidence that Protestant people were discriminated against in the new Free State, apart from some isolated incidents perhaps. They were free to go about their business and there's no evidence of discrimination against them in terms of work and housing.
The best evidence we have today is that elderly Protestants living in the Republic today say they never felt discriminated against, and there was no crisis of identity for them either....they felt as Irish as their Catholic neighbours.
Actually - I was thinking more of the campaign of intimidation Southern protestants during the War of Independence, the burnings-out etc...! Which got distinctly worse in Anti-Treaty-held parts of the Free State for the duration of the Civil War!
There were indeed many who didn't suffer any intimidation, and did remain...but the cross-Border "shared" communites in Fermanagh and South Armagh for instance were devastated, especially as a result of the Irregular's cross-border attacks etc...not "helped" by protestants joining the Special Constabularies, and particularly in the case of the "B"s - taking the field against the Irregulars!..which of course led to an upwards spiral of intimidation....
I'm tempted to say that the ones who were around until old age to say they didn't feel intimidated WERE by definition the ones who didn't experience any! :eek:
In every country, there should be openness about what has transpired even if the facts uncovered are unsavoury or embarrassing.
For example, the post conflict attempt in the early days of the Republic to forge a monolithic national identity had the practical effect of excluding minorities whether they were Protestants, members of the Traveller community or Jews. There is no shortage of peer reviewed sociology papers and PhD theses out there that testify to that effect.
Indeed, the fact that so many Protestants migrated out of the Republic is a clear indication that there was a problem. In particular, there were cases of outright persecution and intimidation particularly in border counties with the North such as Leitrim, Cavan and Monaghan which forced migration into Northern Ireland.
Source = Ireland, 1912-1985: Politics and Society, Professor J J Lee, formerly Professor of History at Cork University, Republic of Ireland.
Certainly, but this would have been an issue for minorities right across Europe at that time. It was a very harsh era, and anyone who didn't fit in with the majority would have found things problematic. It would be quite wrong to single out the new Irish state for criticism.
Those incidents definitely happened and have been well documented by historians, but the civil war was a brutal period in Irish history. There were many incidences also of atrocities being carried out by Catholics on other Catholics (who were on opposing sides of course).
We do know that life in the Republic settled down from the 1930s onwards and that, in the main, Protestants were left in peace and were not actively discrimimated against, by either the state or their Catholic neighbours.
Indeed, Eurostar, and what transpired in the Republic in those days should not be forgotten or dismissed. These days, the country's been transformed out of its insularity and I have a great deal of respect for Seán Lemass who was instrumental in the initial modernising and opening up of Irish society (as well as his constructive overtures to the North).
Still better than the tuppence ha`penny sectarian basket case in the north eastern part of the nation. With Orange Order members in perpetual governance.
The Orange Order of course has never been in Government, as you know.
Of course some MLA's are Orange Order members.
Of course some Sinn Fien MLA's are/ were/ still are IRA members.;)
There are lots of protestant families still living here, all of which I know are deadly proud of their Irishness and would wrap the tri-colour around themselves as any other Irish person...I went to national school with about 5 protestant children out of a class of 20... the only way any of us knew they were protestant was when it came to communion where they stepped to the side. It was never ever something we cared about or mentioned.
Come off it, everyone knows the Order picked the candidates.
The UVF also gave birth to the biggest gang of psychopathic serial killers called the Shankill Butchers, who skinned old drunken men alive at night with meat cleavers and butcher knives, simply because they were Catholic.
As for the idea the UVF stopped their campaign. You clearly know absolutely nothing. Go into the Shankill tonight, or Mount Vernon and ask if the UVF is still about. They still control Loyalist areas through fear and giving punishment beatings. They still run East Belfast and had an arms dump found only last week, so no they haven't stopped their campaign. As I said you clearly know nothing. Lets not speak about topics you know nothing about now, ok?
Please stop talking nonsense. Loyalists, particularly the UVF killed Bobby Moffett (one of their own) because he stood up against the UVF Brigade staff over an issue. As I have stated now three times you are clearly uneducated on the matter, and probably not even from the country, yet are trying to act as if you know this and that. Its pathetically laughable.