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Downton Abbey Series Five Thread

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    Swanandduck2Swanandduck2 Posts: 5,502
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    It's not simply "Mrs Drewe's feelings" - you say that almost as if Edith had remarked that her hat was unflattering or her home not very tidy! What about the Drewe children? What about the Drewe family life from now on?

    Mary wasn't cruel to Edith in the way that Edith was cruel to the Drewes. She was thoughtless and bitchy but these were just words. With Edith, her actions have huge consequences for other people. Unhappiness is no excuse for ruining lives.

    I do condemn Edith who wants sympathy for herself while offering none to others. That IS selfishness.

    I think we'll have to disagree on that. Mary was cruel in a cold and calculating way. Edith was cruel in an unthinking, griefstricken, despairing way in my opinion. I felt really sorry for Mrs Drewe, but at the same time I felt equally sorry for Edith. Mary was just unpleasant for the sake of it and because it makes her feel superior. Edith was cruel because she was single mindedly focussed on getting back her child. She had an actual reason (and a very strong one) for her actions, Mary didn't.
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    duckyluckyduckylucky Posts: 13,861
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    I felt sorry for the child . Pulled from the home and family she knew . Pulled from the mother she knew . Did Edith know her likes and dislikes ? Her favourite teddy or blanket ? A child of that age needs familiarity and stability
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    Cally's mumCally's mum Posts: 4,953
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    I'm afraid I fall into the 'Edith was incredibly selfish' camp. i was utterly shocked at the way she treated the Drewes. Yes, she may be the child's real mother, but not only did she never give any thought to the heartbreak she would cause Mrs Drewe, who had brought up that little girl as her own for 18 months/2 years; nor to the 'brothers and sisters' who would be devastated at losing their sibling. She also gave no thought at all to the child herself. She simply wrested her away from the only family home she had ever known, away from the woman she had known as 'mother' and the man she had known as 'father' and the other children she had grown up with no thought to the consequences.

    That poor child is now in a hotel room, being fed, apparently, ice cream and champagne (which just goes to evidence how little Edith knows about children's needs) - devoid of the only family she had ever known. To her, Edith was no more than a nice lady who came and pampered her on a regular basis. She has never been her 'mother'. Never been there at night, tucking her into bed, making sure she eats right, taking care of her when she was sick. She had a 'mother' who did that. A mother she would love - and now she will never see her again.

    Yes, she may be Edith's daughter and yes, Edith has every right to go in and grab her like she did. But she didn't act like a mother; she didn't give a toss about her own daughter's feelings. Everything was about how *she* felt and what *she* wanted. Mrs Drewe showed what a real mother's love is all about when she made sure that the child had her toy with her, when she told her that Edith was now her mother and that she loved her.

    I have really liked Edith over the past two series. I have been rooting for her and hoping that her story has a happy ending or at least one that can give her a modicum of happiness. But now I just feel angry with her. Whilst it's perfectly natural to want to snatch your child away like that it doesn't mean (a) it's right or (b) that you're capable of the motherly love that requires self-sacrifice.

    I really hope she can redeem herself in my eyes, because I do so want to admire her again. Right now, I don't. In the slightest. And I think some people are beatifying her to the extent that she can do no wrong even when she has blatently done something wrong. Just because Mary has been mean to her in the past (and still is - and so what? They simply don't get on as sisters. It happens) does not give her carte blanche to turn around and split apart a family like she did even if it was her child. Whatever pain she felt at not being Marigold's 'mother' should not come before the wellbeing of her daughter. And she didn't take that into account.
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 550
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    I'm a bit torn over Edith.

    I do think that she acted very selfishly and cruel and that she never really showed any real appreciation for Mrs Drewe or recognized the situation the other woman was in.

    I see though that she was under immense pressure, not only by society, but also by Rosamund and Violet. Also the realization that Gregson was never going to come back, when she probably lived in the delusion that he would miracously reappear.

    I also see that Margie Drewe is the biggest victim here. She has given Marigold a loving home and has been there for her and she was kept in the dark. Which was not entirely Edith's fault but also her own husband's.

    I do think though, that in the long run and viewed as a whole, it is good and right that Edith got her daughter back and that Edith finally stood up for her life and her daughter.

    I think it is now time to prove that she is not just reacting emotionally and irrationally, but that she REALLY is ready to reveal and live the truth. Otherwise it would be just a lie, following another lie and another lie, that hurt many innocent people for selfish reasons.
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    Swanandduck2Swanandduck2 Posts: 5,502
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    I'm afraid I fall into the 'Edith was incredibly selfish' camp. i was utterly shocked at the way she treated the Drewes. Yes, she may be the child's real mother, but not only did she never give any thought to the heartbreak she would cause Mrs Drewe, who had brought up that little girl as her own for 18 months/2 years; nor to the 'brothers and sisters' who would be devastated at losing their sibling. She also gave no thought at all to the child herself. She simply wrested her away from the only family home she had ever known, away from the woman she had known as 'mother' and the man she had known as 'father' and the other children she had grown up with no thought to the consequences.

    That poor child is now in a hotel room, being fed, apparently, ice cream and champagne (which just goes to evidence how little Edith knows about children's needs) - devoid of the only family she had ever known. To her, Edith was no more than a nice lady who came and pampered her on a regular basis. She has never been her 'mother'. Never been there at night, tucking her into bed, making sure she eats right, taking care of her when she was sick. She had a 'mother' who did that. A mother she would love - and now she will never see her again.

    Yes, she may be Edith's daughter and yes, Edith has every right to go in and grab her like she did. But she didn't act like a mother; she didn't give a toss about her own daughter's feelings. Everything was about how *she* felt and what *she* wanted. Mrs Drewe showed what a real mother's love is all about when she made sure that the child had her toy with her, when she told her that Edith was now her mother and that she loved her.

    I have really liked Edith over the past two series. I have been rooting for her and hoping that her story has a happy ending or at least one that can give her a modicum of happiness. But now I just feel angry with her. Whilst it's perfectly natural to want to snatch your child away like that it doesn't mean (a) it's right or (b) that you're capable of the motherly love that requires self-sacrifice.

    I really hope she can redeem herself in my eyes, because I do so want to admire her again. Right now, I don't. In the slightest. And I think some people are beatifying her to the extent that she can do no wrong even when she has blatently done something wrong. Just because Mary has been mean to her in the past (and still is - and so what? They simply don't get on as sisters. It happens) does not give her carte blanche to turn around and split apart a family like she did even if it was her child. Whatever pain she felt at not being Marigold's 'mother' should not come before the wellbeing of her daughter. And she didn't take that into account.

    I don't think anyone is saying that what Edith did was alright, or was fair to the Drewes. Some of us just feel that she was driven to the edge by a tragic and difficult set of circumstances culminating in her family's insensitivity to her loss and Mary's nastiness. She then went and snatched her child in a moment of desperation. I feel about Edith the way I feel about women who snatch babies out of prams because they're not thinking straight. I don't condone what they've done, but I feel very sorry for them for being driven to do such a thing.

    And I think the champagne was for Edith, not the baby. And the ice cream was an attempt at celebration, not Edith's idea of a suitable meal for a child.
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3
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    I don't think anyone is saying that what Edith did was alright, or was fair to the Drewes. Some of us just feel that she was driven to the edge by a tragic and difficult set of circumstances culminating in her family's insensitivity to her loss and Mary's nastiness. She then went and snatched her child in a moment of desperation. I feel about Edith the way I feel about women who snatch babies out of prams because they're not thinking straight. I don't condone what they've done, but I feel very sorry for them for being driven to do such a thing.

    And I think the champagne was for Edith, not the baby. And the ice cream was an attempt at celebration, not Edith's idea of a suitable meal for a child.

    This!

    100% what i was thinking
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    bebecatbebecat Posts: 228
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    Imo, Edith is acting in the very privileged entitled way of an upper class vs lower class kind of way. First she begs the man to take in the child, for her convenience, then she just takes child back, like she loaned them a bail of hay and then changed her mind. Like only her needs are important. Am sick of the lot of them.
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    Swanandduck2Swanandduck2 Posts: 5,502
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    bebecat wrote: »
    Imo, Edith is acting in the very privileged entitled way of an upper class vs lower class kind of way. First she begs the man to take in the child, for her convenience, then she just takes child back, like she loaned them a bail of hay and then changed her mind. Like only her needs are important. Am sick of the lot of them.

    Out of interest, if a working class girl had handed her illegitimate baby over to foster parents even though she really loved her, then at a time of terrible grief and aloneness had snatched the baby back would you think she was being self centred and disdainful of other people's feelings?
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    Collins1965Collins1965 Posts: 13,913
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    I think Marigold is young enough to forget about the Drewes quite quickly, once she is looked after well, which Edith is perfectly capable of.

    And she will have a much better life with Edith than she ever could have had with the Drewes. I think as she grows up she would much rather be with her own mother and having a decent lifestyle and a good chance in life.

    It is all very well to decry the fact that she was taken from the Drewes, and the mother who loved her but Edith loves her every bit as much, if not more.
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    ScotlassScotlass Posts: 819
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    What about Mrs Pattmore's cottage, she said it was £300, is that not a bit high for a cottage in Yorkshire in the 20s?
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    ZipgoesamillionZipgoesamillion Posts: 1,215
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    I have been reading the recent posts about Edith and Marigold. My thoughts, of course Edith has behaved as an upper-class woman. 90 years ago no matter how upset she might have been the chances of her taking back and keeping her child would have been quite slim. No one but no one in society would have had anything to do her once the news broke about her illegitimate child. She would, as was mentioned by Rosamund in S4 gone to live in Maida Vale or if not in London somewhere remote where she wasn't known and could start a new life under an assumed name. Any contact with her family would have been by letter with possibly the very occasional visit from Cora. There cannot really be a happy ending or not the sort looking at it from a 21st century point of view.

    Looking at the story unfold on TV it's very likely that the sort of plan dreamt up by Rosamund and Violet could have taken place. The family would have to be protected at all cost. It makes for good drama and I know from what I've read that many of these ideas come from either family or close friends of JF and he's elaborated on them for the purposes of this drama series.
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    Cally's mumCally's mum Posts: 4,953
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    Out of interest, if a working class girl had handed her illegitimate baby over to foster parents even though she really loved her, then at a time of terrible grief and aloneness had snatched the baby back would you think she was being self centred and disdainful of other people's feelings?

    Yes, but Mrs Drewe wasn't awaare she was a 'foster' parent, was she? And the other children didn't know she was a 'foster sister'. Now you could say this was because Mr Drewe wouldn't tell them - which was a lie of omission that Edith at the very least participated in.

    Or you could say that Edith ordered him not to tell them (a far more likely explanation given that Marigold was supposed to be a secret); in which case her actions can not be excused as simply a 'distraught woman removing her own baby from foster care'.

    Either way, Mrs Drewe and the children didn't know the situation and she at least was heartbroken when her 'child' was removed without so much as a 'bye your leave'. With no real apology, no seeming empathy from one mother to another. Edith was callous and cruel in doing this. No excuse.
    I think Marigold is young enough to forget about the Drewes quite quickly, once she is looked after well, which Edith is perfectly capable of.

    And she will have a much better life with Edith than she ever could have had with the Drewes. I think as she grows up she would much rather be with her own mother and having a decent lifestyle and a good chance in life.

    It is all very well to decry the fact that she was taken from the Drewes, and the mother who loved her but Edith loves her every bit as much, if not more.

    Mrs Drewe and the other kids obviously aren't as important as Edith in this scenario. And it's so wonderful that Marigold will forget about the Drewes so easily - the people who loved her, raised her till she was 18 months/2 years, who tucked her in at night, took care of her when she was sick etc etc etc.

    And how do you define 'more'. Just because someone gives birth it doesn't make them a better mother. As has been evidenced time and time again throughout history and in child abuse cases throughout this last century (and no, I'm not trying to intimate that Edith will be abusive).

    I think foster and adoptive parents would take great issue with your assertion - and the assertion that it was perfectly okay for Edith to act this way and it's perfectly okay for the child to simply 'forget' about the people who lovingly raised her for the first part of her life.

    Great. Edith is happy, Marigold will be happy. Meanwhile, the fact that a family has been torn apart by her actions is just collateral damage and nothing to be too concerned about.

    This is what I mean by people beatifying Edith to the exclusion of all others. She has faults. Like all of us do. She is very far from being perfect. And in this action, she showed that she was self-centered and only thinking about her own needs and no-one else's - including Marigold's.

    And I LIKED Edith!!!!
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    Swanandduck2Swanandduck2 Posts: 5,502
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    Yes, but Mrs Drewe wasn't awaare she was a 'foster' parent, was she? And the other children didn't know she was a 'foster sister'. Now you could say this was because Mr Drewe wouldn't tell them - which was a lie of omission that Edith at the very least participated in.

    Or you could say that Edith ordered him not to tell them (a far more likely explanation given that Marigold was supposed to be a secret); in which case her actions can not be excused as simply a 'distraught woman removing her own baby from foster care'.I LIKED Edith!!!!

    I'm not really following. My argument was that Edith was driven by despair and loneliness and wasn't thinking straight and that 'class' or 'disdain' for the Drewes feelings didn't come into it. She had reached melt down after a period of terrible strain, stress and loss in her life, including the reluctant handing over of her child to the Drewes. Yes, what she did was cruel to the Drewe family, but it was a cruelty driven by grief and distress and she would have done the same thing if it was an upper class family who had been fostering/adopting her child.
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    Cally's mumCally's mum Posts: 4,953
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    I'm not really following. My argument was that Edith was driven by despair and loneliness and wasn't thinking straight and that 'class' or 'disdain' for the Drewes feelings didn't come into it. She had reached melt down after a period of terrible strain, stress and loss in her life, including the reluctant handing over of her child to the Drewes. Yes, what she did was cruel to the Drewe family, but it was a cruelty driven by grief and distress and she would have done the same thing if it was an upper class family who had been fostering/adopting her child.

    Sorry, I lost the gist of what I was saying halfway through.

    I was just trying to make the point that Mrs Drewe didn't KNOW she was a foster parent.

    I do appreciate what Edith was going through, but to be honest, she didn't really endear herself to me throughout all of this. She seemed oblivious to what her constant presence was doing to the family (Mrs Drewe in particular) and that did seem as if she was being self-serving, even if it was because she wanted to see her own child.

    I can appreciate that this was her child, but she made a real mess of things in trying to keep her close to her.
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 550
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    Well, I think people are a bit too emotional about the whole thing. It's a TV show storyline. It didn't REALLY happen.

    So I just shrug and think: "Oh my, Edith. That was cruel", but I don't get emotional about it. The Drewe kids are not really harmed, nor is Margie.

    IMO in the TV fiction, it makes sense for Edith to stand up for herself and be honest about being a mother. And we know in TV fiction that neither Marigold nor the poor Drewes will be harmed for the rest of their days.
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    seejay63seejay63 Posts: 8,800
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    Scotlass wrote: »
    What about Mrs Pattmore's cottage, she said it was £300, is that not a bit high for a cottage in Yorkshire in the 20s?

    My grandparents got married in 1932 and bought a cottage in Yorkshire and it was about that price, so I think it's probably reasonable.
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    sheltsshelts Posts: 511
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    Scotlass wrote: »
    What about Mrs Pattmore's cottage, she said it was £300, is that not a bit high for a cottage in Yorkshire in the 20s?

    No, that would only be 15-16000, my inter war house was £450 brand new, It still had the range, water pump and round pin 5amp plug (one of, somebody had covered up the other one), think Mrs Patmore's cottage is a better investment than mine ever was ,even though it needs a bit doing to it
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    ZipgoesamillionZipgoesamillion Posts: 1,215
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    A brief clip from ep 8.of a dinner at Highclere:

    http://www.itv.com/presscentre/ep7week45/downton-abbey-0
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    seejay63seejay63 Posts: 8,800
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    A brief clip from ep 8.of a dinner at Highclere:

    http://www.itv.com/presscentre/ep7week45/downton-abbey-0

    It looks like the religious differences are more of an issue for Lord Sinderby than anyone else.
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    kat180kat180 Posts: 911
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    Andorra wrote: »
    Well, I think people are a bit too emotional about the whole thing. It's a TV show storyline. It didn't REALLY happen.

    So I just shrug and think: "Oh my, Edith. That was cruel", but I don't get emotional about it. The Drewe kids are not really harmed, nor is Margie.

    IMO in the TV fiction, it makes sense for Edith to stand up for herself and be honest about being a mother. And we know in TV fiction that neither Marigold nor the poor Drewes will be harmed for the rest of their days.

    Lol. Sorry but this did make me laugh. You've made quite a few emotional posts yourself when it comes to Tom!
    ;-)
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    Angelica123Angelica123 Posts: 857
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    I don't think anyone is saying that what Edith did was alright, or was fair to the Drewes. Some of us just feel that she was driven to the edge by a tragic and difficult set of circumstances culminating in her family's insensitivity to her loss and Mary's nastiness. She then went and snatched her child in a moment of desperation. I feel about Edith the way I feel about women who snatch babies out of prams because they're not thinking straight. I don't condone what they've done, but I feel very sorry for them for being driven to do such a thing.

    And I think the champagne was for Edith, not the baby. And the ice cream was an attempt at celebration, not Edith's idea of a suitable meal for a child.

    I think Edith was selfish in taking her child away from the Drewes but ultimately, I believe that Edith genuinely loves her child, and took a drastic measure to stay close to the one person she has left. I felt sorry for Mrs Drewe because she treated Marigold as her own, and she was gracious enough when Edith admitted the truth. They should have told her from the beginning. I liked that you could sympathise with both sides - and there is no right or wrong answer - regardless Marigold will be with someone who loves her.
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 550
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    kat180 wrote: »
    Lol. Sorry but this did make me laugh. You've made quite a few emotional posts yourself when it comes to Tom!
    ;-)


    That's true. But here people are emotional about the Drewe's kids and poor Margie Drewe. I just wanted to tell them that they're ok. There's no real harm done, it's fiction after all.

    It was meant as consolation, not critical.
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    duckyluckyduckylucky Posts: 13,861
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    Andorra wrote: »
    Well, I think people are a bit too emotional about the whole thing. It's a TV show storyline. It didn't REALLY happen.

    So I just shrug and think: "Oh my, Edith. That was cruel", but I don't get emotional about it. The Drewe kids are not really harmed, nor is Margie.

    IMO in the TV fiction, it makes sense for Edith to stand up for herself and be honest about being a mother. And we know in TV fiction that neither Marigold nor the poor Drewes will be harmed for the rest of their days.

    I think we all know we are disscussing a fictional story . ???
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 550
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    duckylucky wrote: »
    I think we all know we are disscussing a fictional story . ???

    In theory :D.

    But I know myself how emotional you can get about this show. I honestly didn't sleep for a week after Sybil died. It was as if a real friend had died and I had been forced to watch it.

    And the worry about Tom makes me truly nervous. I find myself thinking "OMG willTom leave Sybbie with the Crawleys" in situations, where I really should concentrate on real life things!

    And now I thought some of the posts about Edith and the Drewes where really emotional, showing real concern about Marigold's well being or the Drewe children's future life.

    So that was the whole history behind my post. Not that important, really!
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    bebecatbebecat Posts: 228
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    Well, as a fictional character, I dislike Edith. I am sure she is very well-acted to cause reactions, just like Mary's role is. But I especially dilike the character's action surrounding the whole giving up and taking back of a child. And it is jmo.
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