Well, I know it's only anecdotal but where I live the villagers spontaneously ran out into the streets after the finale cheering and clapping. An impromptu carnival and street party got underway and grown men were to be seen weeping with joy as they recalled their favourite bits of the series with complete strangers. But that's just one village.
The series seems like it's done OK. The finale figures are clearly not stellar, but who knows what was (realistically) expected by BBC execs, given all the various factors? Can't see any reason to think fatal wounds have been inflicted. Do we know that tail off happened solely because "the stories became less interesting for a lot of viewers". Has that research been done? It's probably just a guess. People are fickle and come and go. But let's suppose it's true. The remaining audience scored it highly on AI, so if the core audience of the show is 5-7 million, it does well in its slot, gets the sort of professional critical reception that it has done this year, is exported lucratively round the world - where's the problem? There isn't enough info to know if there's a trend of dislike against the current style. Next year will tell.
I would take internet forum polls with a huge pinch of salt. A bit of fun, but not research. Not even close.
A refreshingly well resoned post! (apart from the behaviour of your neighbours - do you live in Leadworth? )
For me Series 5 was good - different to the RTD era, but that is to be expected. I like both showrunners interpretations of the Doctor and can understand that different people will appreciate different things. Some people may be more "fanatical" than others in their support of one series over another, but then a fan is, by definition, "an ardent devotee".
Its when it gets that tad too fanatical we have problems.
In the words of Emo Phillips:
Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"
He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"
Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.
Subsititute Series 5 and Series 1-4 as appropriate
I guess we will know whether or not the success of the recent series is as the polls suggest after Christmas ep and during series 6, or whether during series 6, the ratings decline.
I think that series 6 will be as strong if not stronger as series 5 and the polls probably reflect the same audience who shared the same opinion during RTD's tenure.
There have always been and always will be people who prefer particular era's and who find new phases of the show disappointing.
So, we have people who haven't enjoyed it as much this year (I am one of them). But, equally there were people who didn't enjoy the previous era. It's just now we have something to compare. I still love DW though and am already counting the days until Christmas.
It is however a little self opinionated of you to suggest that DT wasn't a good Doctor. He was a fantastic Doctor. Very very popular. Matt Smith though may surpass his popularity in a couple of years.....he may not. It isn't fair to slag DT off just because "you" didn't like him. For the record I think Matt is fantastic too.
Good post.
I think, in answer to the original question, the series overall may have (IMO) been more popular with the fans.
Matt is great as the Doctor, my problem is that the stories where'nt as interesting for me as I like them.
Interesting to me can be 'Midnight', 'Turn Left', 'Dalek' or 'Robots of Death',or 'Talons' from the classic period to name but a few.
Thats just down to personal taste rather than saying series 5 was rubbish or something along those lines.
Yes, I think i agree with you. Moff has given us "raw" Who while RTD gave us "mainstream" Who. If RTD had introduced DW in 2005 like Moff has reintroduced it now, I have a feeling that the show would not be having its 6th series next year.
Now DW is established, it is logical for a writer to want to restore the "raw" sci-fi elements as Moff did this year.
However, part of me thinks, that while this of course is perfectly acceptable, and I, for one did enjoy the series, I think he should have done this more gradually throughout the series this year rather than "BOOM! This is my programme now, Look how different it is!!".
Yes, the series was popular. Yes, overnights were lower but the averages retained due to timeshift, and yes the AI's were high.
But, could it have achieved more? Yes.
After The Eleventh Hour, the second episode "The Beast Below" was a bit dull. It was also only 41 minutes long and felt rushed. This was a bad choice for episode 2 like "End of The World" was for series 1.
If viewers were disappointed by this episode then it may have changed "Some" people's opinions about the show.
The series opener is always going to be a "curiosity" situation and is likely to achieve good ratings. Episode 2 though is what possibly keeps a viewer interested.
The difference though (and for me it is a big difference) is that EotW was the reboot opening up the effects throttle after it's earth-based opener and showing us, the viewer, that this new series could do CGI, Prosthetics and the like on a par with other contemporary programmes - it was visually saying: "This is not the DW that got cancelled in 1989, this is something else"
By the time Series 5 opened, everyone is oblivious to the CGI because it's become a part of the show - I found criticism, of the FX "obvious budget cuts" argument amusing - if the alleged budget cuts hadn't been publicised would people have noticed? Likewise, if Richard Curtis had used a pseudonym a la Douglas Adams, would VatD been accused of being shamelessly sentimental just like his movies?
I enjoyed TBB, it was always going to be a dip after the epic running time of TEoT and the 60 minute TEH as we returned to the 45 minute format not seen in over eighteen months but it is an episode that rewards re-viewing as do so many in Series 5.
After The Eleventh Hour, the second episode "The Beast Below" was a bit dull. It was also only 41 minutes long and felt rushed. This was a bad choice for episode 2 like "End of The World" was for series 1.
I would have to take exception to this. It was EotW that got me hooked on NuWho, specifically, I can pin it down to the exact moment in the episode. I felt the first episode of series 1 was not as good as later ones. For me, the series got better with each and every episode that followed.
Have to agree a little with the OP, I know more people who thought this series was not as good as before, as vice versa. One friend disliked Matt Smith, but I think that's not typical - overall I think he's (deservedly) been very well received.
Many people share my dislike of Amy (though my personal dislike had diluted by the end of the season). I do think that this series will have appealed to fanboys more than the general public, it has had a more "classic" feel to it, and in the same way the RTD series gets a bashing from people on here who feel it wasn't as "traditional". IMO, the series needed to be updated for the 21st century, and RTD did a pretty good job. Moffat has, it seems, taken a slight step back towards classic Dr Who, and it's a dangerous ploy - RTD's seasons were phenomenally popular for a reason, and it wasn't because the general public don't know as much as the fanboy RTD haters on these forums like to think.
But - said it before, say it again - I still enjoyed this series, and have nothing but optimism for the show's future.
Like I said in the other topic, people said exactly the same things 4 years ago as they're saying now, and as we can tell from the fact we're stll on here discussing it, NOTHING HAPPENED.
Since that article is about the last financial year any Doctor Who DVDs sold would not be Series 5.
And for the 2009/10 Financial Year, BBC Worldwide report in their Annual Review (page 33)
Top Gear, Doctor Who and BBC Earth
These three brands have grown strongly, with sales across
the company rising by 15.0% to £147.3m and profit by
33.8% to £51.5m.
News story here shows a total profit fro BBC Worldwide of £145.2m, so the three brands listed above are extremely valuable to the BBC.
Anyone want to suggest cancellation again? :rolleyes:
Well, I know it's only anecdotal but where I live the villagers spontaneously ran out into the streets after the finale cheering and clapping. An impromptu carnival and street party got underway and grown men were to be seen weeping with joy as they recalled their favourite bits of the series with complete strangers. But that's just one village.
The series seems like it's done OK. The finale figures are clearly not stellar, but who knows what was (realistically) expected by BBC execs, given all the various factors? Can't see any reason to think fatal wounds have been inflicted. Do we know that tail off happened solely because "the stories became less interesting for a lot of viewers". Has that research been done? It's probably just a guess. People are fickle and come and go. But let's suppose it's true. The remaining audience scored it highly on AI, so if the core audience of the show is 5-7 million, it does well in its slot, gets the sort of professional critical reception that it has done this year, is exported lucratively round the world - where's the problem? There isn't enough info to know if there's a trend of dislike against the current style. Next year will tell.
I would take internet forum polls with a huge pinch of salt. A bit of fun, but not research. Not even close.
A refreshingly well resoned post! (apart from the behaviour of your neighbours - do you live in Leadworth? )
For me Series 5 was good - different to the RTD era, but that is to be expected. I like both showrunners interpretations of the Doctor and can understand that different people will appreciate different things. Some people may be more "fanatical" than others in their support of one series over another, but then a fan is, by definition, "an ardent devotee".
Its when it gets that tad too fanatical we have problems.
In the words of Emo Phillips:
Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"
He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"
Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.
Subsititute Series 5 and Series 1-4 as appropriate
What you two said!!!
series 5 is as popular as the past series.....ratings and AI are enough to prove that.....yes it may be my least favourite series.....it has nothing to do with overall big changes or anything, just that this year i have found the stories more weaker....
I don't know many Whovians in real life, but the ones i do, don't give a cr*p about who has written for it....and what changes there are....they seem to be enjoying it as always....more or less who knows.....but watching it and enjoying it as always....although i feel my niece might be enjoying it more....the use of children this series has got her attention more, she abolutely loves Amelia......her face was a picture of joy when she made an appeareance again in the Big Bang....
Anyone want to suggest cancellation again? :rolleyes:
I thin you will find that Dr Who was also very successful financially for BBC Worldwide when it was cancelled in the 1980's. In fact the Fan Club Of America even offered to finance a complete season when it was put on hold for a year -such was it's popularity. Unfortunately it was ultimately cancelled because of it's poor ratings (averaging around 4 million). Looking back at that period as a fan I was beginning to find the Sylvester McCoy latter stories to be some of the most imteresting in the history of the show, the Doctor was beginning to have a new edge which was taking the show in a new direction until it was cancelled. So fans liking a particular direction the show is going is not sufficient on ot's own to save a show like Dr Who -it needs to be mainstream as well as meeting the needs of the fans. I would love to see the show go on for 20+ years and the reason we are so passionate about this discussion is because we care so much for this show.
Even Moff has been quoted as saying he doesn't visit the forums anymore because he would agree with a lot of what is being discussed but he needs to distance himself away as a fan and look at producing a show which is more mainstream -something I hope he manages with Series 6.
I thin you will find that Dr Who was also very successful financially for BBC Worldwide when it was cancelled in the 1980's. In fact the Fan Club Of America even offered to finance a complete season when it was put on hold for a year -such was it's popularity. Unfortunately it was ultimately cancelled because of it's poor ratings (averaging around 4 million).
No it was cancelled because of Michael Grade and his desire to kill it off.
Most of the people I know have stopped watching Who this series for all different reasons and most have nothing to do with the quality of the program.
Most of my male friends find they are too ‘cool’ to watch Doctor Who anyway but even the ones that did have now stopped watching because they got tired of it during the specials and now have no interest in it at all. I think they may have grown out of the idea of a man travelling time and space in a blue box.
My female friends have all stopped watching because they were more Tennant fans than Who itself and they can’t think of anything worse than having look at Matt Smith’s face for 45 minutes (so so shallow, but two of them are models so you know shallow).
The only people that I know who have stopped watching directly because of the quality of Series 5 are both my parents. They don’t like Matt or Karen “He bad and she’s worse” or the writing of the Series. They managed to Episode 5 before announcing “That’s us done” and they’ve not watched an episode since. In fact my Dad got quite mad that something that the whole family used to sit down and watch has turned so so bad in his opinion.
So now the only people I know who watch Doctor Who currently is my brother and I. I personally thought it was good but as I said the other day "I shall enjoy the ride untill something better comes along" meaning hopfully the next production team. But it seems popular enough by the hard core fans just maybe not, in my experience at least the casual viewer.
Most of the people I know have stopped watching Who this series for all different reasons and most have nothing to do with the quality of the program.
Most of my male friends find they are too ‘cool’ to watch Doctor Who anyway but even the ones that did have now stopped watching because they got tired of it during the specials and now have no interest in it at all. I think they may have grown out of the idea of a man travelling time and space in a blue box.
My female friends have all stopped watching because they were more Tennant fans than Who itself and they can’t think of anything worse than having look at Matt Smith’s face for 45 minutes (so so shallow, but two of them are models so you know shallow).
The only people that I know who have stopped watching directly because of the quality of Series 5 are both my parents. They don’t like Matt or Karen “He bad and she’s worse” or the writing of the Series. They managed to Episode 5 before announcing “That’s us done” and they’ve not watched an episode since. In fact my Dad got quite mad that something that the whole family used to sit down and watch has turned so so bad in his opinion.
So now the only people I know who watch Doctor Who currently is my brother and I. But it seems popular enough by the hard core fans just maybe not, in my experience at least the casual viewer.
Sounds like most of them aren't much of a loss. It's still popular though, not just with hard core fans but with around 7-8 million viewers if the final ratings this year are anything to go by. I don't think you can say all those people are 'hard core fans'.
Sounds like most of them aren't much of a loss. It's still popular though, not just with hard core fans but with around 7-8 million viewers if the final ratings this year are anything to go by. I don't think you can say all those people are 'hard core fans'.
No of course you can't, I perhaps shouldn't have said hard core fans when I just meant fans not casual viewers. And no doubt the show is still as popular but I just meant in my experience.
What kind of people would have to stop watching to constitute a genuine loss?
If several million regular viewers suddenly stopped watching because of a perceived drop in quality, I'd worry. If a couple of thousand stop watching because they were more interested in the pretty boy in the suit than in the stories, that's a loss the show will barely notice.
It's a question what direction will BBC want to go with their product. Will they be happy if DW loses its ability to attract a wide spectrum of viewers and becomes more a specialist programme? The changes in viewing figures are probably insignificant, but now is the time to act if they want to change anything.
It's a question what direction will BBC want to go with their product. Will they be happy if DW loses its ability to attract a wide spectrum of viewers and becomes more a specialist programme? The changes in viewing figures are probably insignificant, but now is the time to act if they want to change anything.
You'd have to ask everyone who watched the series & everyone who didn't because of the changes. Personally I'm a happy chappie the way this series went!
Comments
A refreshingly well resoned post! (apart from the behaviour of your neighbours - do you live in Leadworth?
For me Series 5 was good - different to the RTD era, but that is to be expected. I like both showrunners interpretations of the Doctor and can understand that different people will appreciate different things. Some people may be more "fanatical" than others in their support of one series over another, but then a fan is, by definition, "an ardent devotee".
Its when it gets that tad too fanatical we have problems.
In the words of Emo Phillips:
He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"
Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.
Subsititute Series 5 and Series 1-4 as appropriate
Funny, most of my friernds have found it a great improvement.
Good post.
I think, in answer to the original question, the series overall may have (IMO) been more popular with the fans.
Matt is great as the Doctor, my problem is that the stories where'nt as interesting for me as I like them.
Interesting to me can be 'Midnight', 'Turn Left', 'Dalek' or 'Robots of Death',or 'Talons' from the classic period to name but a few.
Thats just down to personal taste rather than saying series 5 was rubbish or something along those lines.
The difference though (and for me it is a big difference) is that EotW was the reboot opening up the effects throttle after it's earth-based opener and showing us, the viewer, that this new series could do CGI, Prosthetics and the like on a par with other contemporary programmes - it was visually saying: "This is not the DW that got cancelled in 1989, this is something else"
By the time Series 5 opened, everyone is oblivious to the CGI because it's become a part of the show - I found criticism, of the FX "obvious budget cuts" argument amusing - if the alleged budget cuts hadn't been publicised would people have noticed? Likewise, if Richard Curtis had used a pseudonym a la Douglas Adams, would VatD been accused of being shamelessly sentimental just like his movies?
I enjoyed TBB, it was always going to be a dip after the epic running time of TEoT and the 60 minute TEH as we returned to the 45 minute format not seen in over eighteen months but it is an episode that rewards re-viewing as do so many in Series 5.
Same here.
Apparently its selling well too
Can't wait to see Matt Smith in a reasonably priced car
Since that article is about the last financial year any Doctor Who DVDs sold would not be Series 5.
I would have to take exception to this. It was EotW that got me hooked on NuWho, specifically, I can pin it down to the exact moment in the episode. I felt the first episode of series 1 was not as good as later ones. For me, the series got better with each and every episode that followed.
Horses for courses.
D
Many people share my dislike of Amy (though my personal dislike had diluted by the end of the season). I do think that this series will have appealed to fanboys more than the general public, it has had a more "classic" feel to it, and in the same way the RTD series gets a bashing from people on here who feel it wasn't as "traditional". IMO, the series needed to be updated for the 21st century, and RTD did a pretty good job. Moffat has, it seems, taken a slight step back towards classic Dr Who, and it's a dangerous ploy - RTD's seasons were phenomenally popular for a reason, and it wasn't because the general public don't know as much as the fanboy RTD haters on these forums like to think.
But - said it before, say it again - I still enjoyed this series, and have nothing but optimism for the show's future.
And for the 2009/10 Financial Year, BBC Worldwide report in their Annual Review (page 33)
Top Gear, Doctor Who and BBC Earth
These three brands have grown strongly, with sales across
the company rising by 15.0% to £147.3m and profit by
33.8% to £51.5m.
News story here shows a total profit fro BBC Worldwide of £145.2m, so the three brands listed above are extremely valuable to the BBC.
Anyone want to suggest cancellation again? :rolleyes:
What you two said!!!
series 5 is as popular as the past series.....ratings and AI are enough to prove that.....yes it may be my least favourite series.....it has nothing to do with overall big changes or anything, just that this year i have found the stories more weaker....
I don't know many Whovians in real life, but the ones i do, don't give a cr*p about who has written for it....and what changes there are....they seem to be enjoying it as always....more or less who knows.....but watching it and enjoying it as always....although i feel my niece might be enjoying it more....the use of children this series has got her attention more, she abolutely loves Amelia......her face was a picture of joy when she made an appeareance again in the Big Bang....
I thin you will find that Dr Who was also very successful financially for BBC Worldwide when it was cancelled in the 1980's. In fact the Fan Club Of America even offered to finance a complete season when it was put on hold for a year -such was it's popularity. Unfortunately it was ultimately cancelled because of it's poor ratings (averaging around 4 million). Looking back at that period as a fan I was beginning to find the Sylvester McCoy latter stories to be some of the most imteresting in the history of the show, the Doctor was beginning to have a new edge which was taking the show in a new direction until it was cancelled. So fans liking a particular direction the show is going is not sufficient on ot's own to save a show like Dr Who -it needs to be mainstream as well as meeting the needs of the fans. I would love to see the show go on for 20+ years and the reason we are so passionate about this discussion is because we care so much for this show.
Even Moff has been quoted as saying he doesn't visit the forums anymore because he would agree with a lot of what is being discussed but he needs to distance himself away as a fan and look at producing a show which is more mainstream -something I hope he manages with Series 6.
No it was cancelled because of Michael Grade and his desire to kill it off.
Most of my male friends find they are too ‘cool’ to watch Doctor Who anyway but even the ones that did have now stopped watching because they got tired of it during the specials and now have no interest in it at all. I think they may have grown out of the idea of a man travelling time and space in a blue box.
My female friends have all stopped watching because they were more Tennant fans than Who itself and they can’t think of anything worse than having look at Matt Smith’s face for 45 minutes (so so shallow, but two of them are models so you know shallow).
The only people that I know who have stopped watching directly because of the quality of Series 5 are both my parents. They don’t like Matt or Karen “He bad and she’s worse” or the writing of the Series. They managed to Episode 5 before announcing “That’s us done” and they’ve not watched an episode since. In fact my Dad got quite mad that something that the whole family used to sit down and watch has turned so so bad in his opinion.
So now the only people I know who watch Doctor Who currently is my brother and I. I personally thought it was good but as I said the other day "I shall enjoy the ride untill something better comes along" meaning hopfully the next production team. But it seems popular enough by the hard core fans just maybe not, in my experience at least the casual viewer.
Sounds like most of them aren't much of a loss. It's still popular though, not just with hard core fans but with around 7-8 million viewers if the final ratings this year are anything to go by. I don't think you can say all those people are 'hard core fans'.
No of course you can't, I perhaps shouldn't have said hard core fans when I just meant fans not casual viewers. And no doubt the show is still as popular but I just meant in my experience.
If several million regular viewers suddenly stopped watching because of a perceived drop in quality, I'd worry. If a couple of thousand stop watching because they were more interested in the pretty boy in the suit than in the stories, that's a loss the show will barely notice.
Which they don't appear to.
I am not sure they would tell us yet even if they were working on something.
Interesting that, when I came to vote in the DWM poll, I gave every story this year 7 or 8 or 9 out of ten.
In past years, I have doled out every mark possible, from 1 out of ten to 10 out of ten, and everything in between.
There's been such a huge variety of quality in past years, from the very best to the very worst of DW. This year, everything has been "pretty good".
It feels very different because of that. Fewer "standouts", in terms of "excellent" or "crap". Very odd feeling, but very enjoyable nonetheless.