The End Of Time was truley awful... wasnt it?

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  • Stever7Stever7 Posts: 1,675
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    It's not death. The whole point of it is to avoid death. As Moffat once said, there aren't Eleven Doctors, there's one Doctor who has Eleven faces.

    Yes but as explained in the epsiode it might be cheating death for The Doctor as a whole but to the individual Doctor it FEELS like dying. To that Doctor he IS dying, with some other bloke taking his place. The Doctor may cheat death but he dies.
  • StalwartUKStalwartUK Posts: 684
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    It wasn't brilliant but the 20 minute saying goodbyes ending was quite unnecessary. I hope when Moffat leaves he doesn't have the ending of his last episode dedicated to cameos of all his companions.
  • be more pacificbe more pacific Posts: 19,061
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    It seemed too much like a self-indulgent "victory lap" to me. RTD had already done the epic Whoniverse reunion with The Stolen Earth and Journey's End just 18 months earlier.

    I would have much preferred for the 10th Doctor to have gone with some dignity without the bucket list of lottery-rigging, matchmaking, rescues and book-signing attendance.
  • CAMERA OBSCURACAMERA OBSCURA Posts: 8,002
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    I wouldn't personally say it was truly awful, there are many other episodes that have that accolade, but on the whole I find it more than enjoyable with enough 'Who' moments to warrant re watches.

    When they make an appearance I think the whole 'Silver Cloak' pensioner story line slows the rhythm of the episodes and is ultimately redundant.

    I love the whole regeneration scene and second from Ecclestones I think it is one the best, which isn't that hard as only Troughtons is of any merit beyond lying on the floor and simply regenerating.

    There are moments when The Master's character works, the dialouge between him The Doctor and Wilf in the 'comfy chair' scene for example, love that wink, but there are moments when The Master doesn't work or grates, too many 'meat meat meat' moments.

    The four knocks scene is great, the green alien women is bizarrely cute and sexy:o, Wilfs great, strange Timelord Mamma popping up here and there has now become a nice unanswered fan thing.

    Loved the Time War twist after 4 series of beng told The Doctor locked the Time War because of the Daleks was only a part truth, it was also that the Timelords has become seriously nuts as well.:D

    Loved The Master saving The Doctor and then in turn The Doctor saving Wilf, loved The Doctor beat up turning to and fro with a gun, great sound on that scene.

    So for me there are many moments that stop the episode being truly awful, there are many episodes that have come after that deserve that accolade on my 'awful' list.
  • inspector drakeinspector drake Posts: 910
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    Stever7 wrote: »
    Yes but as explained in the epsiode it might be cheating death for The Doctor as a whole but to the individual Doctor it FEELS like dying. To that Doctor he IS dying, with some other bloke taking his place. The Doctor may cheat death but he dies.

    As I mentioned, there aren't any 'individual' Doctors. There is a single one with Eleven faces. Some of his personality traits change, but his core personality remains the same.
  • lordOfTimelordOfTime Posts: 22,267
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    As I mentioned, there aren't any 'individual' Doctors. There is a single one with Eleven faces. Some of his personality traits change, but his core personality remains the same.

    He is very much the same person. He retains the same knowledge memories and experience. The Same Time Lord. The same soul. But each regeneration is a different "life" of that same person.

    "Every cell in my body is dying" Nine.
    "Time Lords have this little trick... cheating death" Nine
    "Before I go..." Nine

    He explains the consequences of regeneration to Rose and Later on to Wilf.

    He clearly sees regeneration as a death. The death of one body in him and the beginning of a new. So of course he is the same person but it's not just a change of appearance he undergoes. He becomes a different person mentally as well.
  • Residents FanResidents Fan Posts: 9,204
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    Stever7 wrote: »
    Yes but as explained in the epsiode it might be cheating death for The Doctor as a whole but to the individual Doctor it FEELS like dying. To that Doctor he IS dying, with some other bloke taking his place. The Doctor may cheat death but he dies.

    It's sort of like the Buddhist idea of reincarnation - the Doctor's
    personality or "ego" dies each time he regenerates, but the "soul" lives on with a new personality.
  • Stever7Stever7 Posts: 1,675
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    As I mentioned, there aren't any 'individual' Doctors. There is a single one with Eleven faces. Some of his personality traits change, but his core personality remains the same.

    I'd argue against this.

    Firstly each Doctor has their own personality, own take on things, etc. Yes it is the same man with the same core personality, but they are individuals.

    And as said, The Doctor even attests to this. Unless it gets retconned in the future the offical line in my eyes is that each Doctor views regeneration of a death of who he currently is to preserve who is always is.

    Some deal with death better than others, but then that's true of everyone and I view it as just another of the personality traits which changes with regeneration.
    It's sort of like the Buddhist idea of reincarnation - the Doctor's
    personality or "ego" dies each time he regenerates, but the "soul" lives on with a new personality.

    Yes I agree with this :)



    Oh and it irritates me that people say the 10th was a coward in death. He had the choice. He could have walked away from it, could have let Wilf die in his place. Wilf even begs The Doctor to leave, let him (an old man) die instead of The Doctor. But instead The Doctor rejects this idea and says it would be his honour to sarifice his life for Wilf. He then walks to his own death. Sure he's bitter about it, and especially bitter/sad about it when he's undergoing regeneration. But a coward? What a load of *ahem*.

    He was (with the 9th a close 2nd) the BRAVEST versions of The Doctor as they had the option to let someone die in their place. They didn't, they walked to their deaths.
  • ryanr554ryanr554 Posts: 4,013
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    Who was that woman that kept appearing to Wilf? When he asked the Doctor he just looked at Donna.
  • Sophie ~Oohie~Sophie ~Oohie~ Posts: 10,395
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    ryanr554 wrote: »
    Who was that woman that kept appearing to Wilf? When he asked the Doctor he just looked at Donna.
    No-one knows :o
  • inspector drakeinspector drake Posts: 910
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    Stever7 wrote: »
    I'd argue against this.

    Firstly each Doctor has their own personality, own take on things, etc. Yes it is the same man with the same core personality, but they are individuals.

    And as said, The Doctor even attests to this. Unless it gets retconned in the future the offical line in my eyes is that each Doctor views regeneration of a death of who he currently is to preserve who is always is.

    Some deal with death better than others, but then that's true of everyone and I view it as just another of the personality traits which changes with regeneration.

    Well, Eleven seems more positive towards it, I believe in LKH (correct me if i'm wrong as I haven't watched it since the original airing.) He said (when told he had been poisoned) something along the lines of 'It's OK, I'll regenerate', which I took to mean he didn't view it as death. But anyway, to each their own.
  • nebogipfelnebogipfel Posts: 8,375
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    I wouldn't personally say it was truly awful, there are many other episodes that have that accolade, but on the whole I find it more than enjoyable with enough 'Who' moments to warrant re watches.

    When they make an appearance I think the whole 'Silver Cloak' pensioner story line slows the rhythm of the episodes and is ultimately redundant.

    I love the whole regeneration scene and second from Ecclestones I think it is one the best, which isn't that hard as only Troughtons is of any merit beyond lying on the floor and simply regenerating.

    There are moments when The Master's character works, the dialouge between him The Doctor and Wilf in the 'comfy chair' scene for example, love that wink, but there are moments when The Master doesn't work or grates, too many 'meat meat meat' moments.

    The four knocks scene is great, the green alien women is bizarrely cute and sexy:o, Wilfs great, strange Timelord Mamma popping up here and there has now become a nice unanswered fan thing.

    Loved the Time War twist after 4 series of beng told The Doctor locked the Time War because of the Daleks was only a part truth, it was also that the Timelords has become seriously nuts as well.:D

    Loved The Master saving The Doctor and then in turn The Doctor saving Wilf, loved The Doctor beat up turning to and fro with a gun, great sound on that scene.

    So for me there are many moments that stop the episode being truly awful, there are many episodes that have come after that deserve that accolade on my 'awful' list.

    I agree with much of this.except didn't like the regeneration very much.

    Also, thought third and fifth Doctors regenerations were a bit special, not just second.

    "meat, meat, meat" I loved and gave Simm a,chance to do a drama school acting exercise. BUT....wrong character doing it in the wrong story. Would have been a good set of scenes in a "cannibal on the loose" story.

    It's so passe to list what's wrong with this story so i'll join you in agreeing - much to enjoy!
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 455
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    It's sort of like the Buddhist idea of reincarnation - the Doctor's
    personality or "ego" dies each time he regenerates, but the "soul" lives on with a new personality.

    That's a perfect way of describing it. The old Doctor dies and is reborn in a new body with a new life (though sometimes the companions stick around). Vive la Difference!
  • Residents FanResidents Fan Posts: 9,204
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    Joanne1938 wrote: »
    That's a perfect way of describing it. The old Doctor dies and is reborn in a new body with a new life (though sometimes the companions stick around). Vive la Difference!

    And don't forget Barry Letts, who oversaw the
    3rd-to-4th Doctor regenerations, (which
    played up these ideas) was a practicising
    Buddhist.
  • KezMKezM Posts: 1,397
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    Well, Eleven seems more positive towards it, I believe in LKH (correct me if i'm wrong as I haven't watched it since the original airing.) He said (when told he had been poisoned) something along the lines of 'It's OK, I'll regenerate', which I took to mean he didn't view it as death. But anyway, to each their own.

    But that wouldn't be very dramatic would it? The Doctor has to care about whether he is going to regenerate otherwise there is no point in worrying when he is in danger or any sense of sacrifice when he gives a life up for someone else. The guys playing the Doctor would go out a pretty boring note if it was "Ok, see ya, I'm going to regenerate. On to the next guy."
  • codename_47codename_47 Posts: 9,682
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    KezM wrote: »
    But that wouldn't be very dramatic would it? The Doctor has to care about whether he is going to regenerate otherwise there is no point in worrying when he is in danger or any sense of sacrifice when he gives a life up for someone else. The guys playing the Doctor would go out a pretty boring note if it was "Ok, see ya, I'm going to regenerate. On to the next guy."

    Maybe next time he could look into the camera and say "this didn't happen to the other fellow" ;)
  • nebogipfelnebogipfel Posts: 8,375
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    Maybe next time he could look into the camera and say "this didn't happen to the other fellow" ;)

    I know what that's from! (probably so does everybody :o). Doubly good 'cause of popular view that he's a renegade timelord too.
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