One thing I am confused about is the barn on Gallifrey. Isn't Gallifrey lost in a pocket universe somewhere? There's no way the TARDIS would be able to go there surely?
Why wouldn't a time machine be able to visit somewhere while it was still in the usual universe, before it was hidden?
- from me : a human with a hilariously small brain.
Glad I watched this episode again on BBC3 tonight. I think I missed some things the first time around ( like the coffee cup thing) and wasn't sure about it.
The positives -
I liked the slower pace on this one. The doctors monologue at the beginning and The 'monster' on the bed is very well done and gives scares in the right way all the way through. Terrific atmosphere created for the whole story. I think I read that Steven Moffat needed a budget conscious story and it just goes to show that you don't need lots of action and big budget explosions.
I've not felt sure about who Peter's doctor was up to this point but I think tonight he clicked for me. When he was telling Clara and Rupert not to turn around I suddenly saw the Doctor I knew ( the hero, the protector) and when he had to know about the 'monster' in the ship and ordered Clara back to the ship I saw shades of the 3rd and 5th and the 9th. Peter Capaldi I have always thought he is a very good actor and this script gave him lots of light and shade as the character. Because he is such a good actor he needs really good scripts and this was one of them.
Clara felt more fleshed out tonight in the scenes with Danny on the date although Moffat is still guilty of writing 'quips' for her at times. I liked Clara concern for the doctor before he met the 'monster' Danny is quite intriguing although I actually liked Orson more. Felt like we learned more about Orson in 5 minutes than Danny but maybe that's deliberate.
Negatives
Although the story made sense structurally and as someone has mentioned is 'circular' in the story logic the ending felt a little flat for me I'm not sure I can fully buy the idea of Clara's influence in the young doctors life ( making him fear something under the bed, telling him to listen giving him the confidence to live with his fear ). She doesn't always make sense. On the one hand she cant manage a date but seems able to dispense comfort and be wise.
I think the one idea of her as the impossible girl entering the doctors time stream has made her 'special 'enough without adding this aspect. It seems a bit of a self indulgence too far on behalf of the writer. . Clara doesn't seem so much like 'our eyes' to the Doctors world if she is always going to be doing 'special' things.
Saying that I still enjoyed it enormously. A huge improvement on last week and if only every episode was of this quality I would be very very happy 9.5/10:)
Glad you liked it I see you gave it a good score too, so I'm not just about to critic your post, I just had a view on Clara I wanted to share ....
Can I just say to everyone wondering about Clara sewing the seeds of the future Doctor. In my opinion, she spoke the words and they were very sincere indeed, and without her delivery they could not have had the same impact, but for me the scene was a kind of a predestination paradox. Had she never met the Doctor, and had the Doctor not planted the idea into Ruperts head leading to Rupert becoming Danny, leading to Clara taking them to meet Rupert in the first place, leading to the Doctor searching for Orson, leading to Clara having to fly the Tardis to save them all, leading to the doctor moaning just when she was supposed to be concentrating on her timeline .....
well basically my point is, the Doctor has had a huge positive impact on Clara in the time he had known her. Indeed, in many ways Clara was replaying words to the young Doctor that she had heard the Doctor say to her and others before. The Doctor created the words that inspired the ... Doctor. I.e the Doctor made Clara a better person like he did with all his companions.
My anal negative was the use of the station base 6 logo on Orsons' suit which I believe either Dave_h or David_h pointed out to me in another thread ...
I think I'm just yearning for a more lighthearted atmosphere.... or at least for an episode in which everything is not couched in gloom and dismal blueish lighting... nor where the Doctor keeps speaking in harsh whispers while looking like a startled owl.
I was disappointed, I didn't think much of it. The episode seemed to be trying to be clever and profound but fell short, at least in my opinion. I also don't care much for the Danny character, he's like another Mickey, another Rory. The handshake he gave Clara was rather lame as was his putting his head down on the table. I'd just like to see the companions' boyfriends with a little more backbone, be a little more masculine. But maybe he'll improve. Clara certainly seems to like him and is already aggressively pursuing him romantically, but then the Victorian Clara threw herself at the Doctor soon after they met so apparently that's just Clara's nature (and the nature of most of the women characters/companions portrayed in new Who).
I also don't think much of the Doctor repeatedly insulting Clara's appearance, it's just rude and makes him look like a jerk, which is too bad because in general I do like Capaldi's Doctor.
The whole thing with Clara and the young Doctor was just another attempt to make Clara be The Most Important Companion Ever In The History Of The Show. I used to think RTD's efforts to put Rose on a pedestal were bad (and they were) but Moffat's certainly outdone him with Clara (although I do like Clara more than I like Rose).
The one part I did really like was the thing/whatever on the bed in the kid's (Danny) room and then the kid's remark about it taking the bedspread and the Doctor's subsequent remark about humans. Too bad the whole thing ended up fizzling out.
Another mess of an episode. So sick of know it all Clara now. And when all other buildings were destroyed on Galiffrey were destroyed, how come the barn survived?
Well, St Paul's is pretty damn big and in spite of the Luftwaffe destroying virtually everything around it, it survived...now on Gallifrey, away from the Cities, a small barn surviving intact seems relatively feasible...or does your hatred of the episode affect your acceptance of possibilities?
I think this episode watched in the dark would have scared some kids.
I watched if in the dark and turned the light on pretty quick when it finished!
On re-watching yesterday I still can't get why Clara repeatedly lied about any connection with Rupert/Danny when the Doctor was trying to work out why they ended up at the children's home.
I think I'm just yearning for a more lighthearted atmosphere.... or at least for an episode in which everything is not couched in gloom and dismal blueish lighting... nor where the Doctor keeps speaking in harsh whispers while looking like a startled owl.
My 8 year old is prone to nightmares so there was no way I could let him watch it, which was a pity as he is a big fan.
Once again we have timey wimey complications. I long for a 'normal' companion who just wants to go on adventures with the Doctor. I wonder will we ever get one again??
On re-watching yesterday I still can't get why Clara repeatedly lied about any connection with Rupert/Danny when the Doctor was trying to work out why they ended up at the children's home.
The simplest answer might be that the Doctor is her "ex-boyfriend" and she's not yet entirely comfortable talking to him about another bloke - any other bloke. She may simply have been too embarrassed to tell the Doctor that she was thinking about "another man".
The simplest answer might be that the Doctor is her "ex-boyfriend" and she's not yet entirely comfortable talking to him about another bloke - any other bloke. She may simply have been too embarrassed to tell the Doctor that she was thinking about "another man".
Or he would have shouted at her because he told her not to get distracted, and she did!
On the other hand, in a 'life and death' situation, just maybe she could have helped him understand why it happened? He was well aware she was seeing someone and took her back so she could go and speak to him again,she even told him she may get a phone call, she was prepared to tell him to shut up and do as he was told but she was too scared or embarrassed to tell him that's what distracted her?
I wish she was consistant but she just isn't and it grates.
Or he would have shouted at her because he told her not to get distracted, and she did!
Oddly enough - I've suggested that he may have told her not to get distracted precisely cos he wanted the opposite to happen.
I say "don't think about cheese - whatever you do, do NOT think about ten different types of cheese - don't picture a big chunk of cheddar on a plate with some pickles and a stack of crackers - and definitely don't think of a glass of port and the whole lot on a silver tray with a small vase containing a single red rose"
There's no way on earth you can do anything BUT think about cheese - even if you had absolutely no thought of cheese before I mentioned it - and making it "an order" just adds to the imperative. At the very least you have to perform a mental check that you aren't thinking about cheese "by accident" - and that involves thinking about cheese.
Just from a "practical" point of view - why would the Tardis even have a "psychic interface" that can't cope with normal, erratic thought? That's like having a car that will crash if the driver thinks about sex.
But she is becoming a real person now, and it's good to see one of the few consistent features of her character reinforced in this episode, namely the rapport she has with children.
Good thing, too, considering she is going to have Danny's son.
Maybe that's how she leaves the show - she can't go swanning around time & space with a pink bun in the oven.
Honest question - I don't get what is scary about this idea? I was watching in not ideal conditions - on a rubbish TV in an uncomfortable hotel room and I missed the first couple of minutes, so maybe I missed something at the beginning.
But a creature that is there, under the bed, that you talk to, that is the prickling at the back of your neck, but never does anything to hurt you - what's scary about that? It just wants to hide and be around you. What's the danger? Let the poor thing.
I thought there was going to be some reason why so many people have the fear of under the bed, and I thought that was clever - but there wasn't. The explanation only applied to the Doctor.
I couldn't understand why the Doctor would not turn around to look at it. How I've always imagined the Doctor, he'd turn around. His curiosity wouldn't have been able to resist. Because what would have happened if he had? In Blink the Angels took you and trapped you, and in Midnight, the point was what people did when they were afraid (which felt more true to me, btw, than 'fear is a superpower') but here if he'd turned around all that would have happened was that he'd have found out what or who the monster/other child in the home was. How could the Doctor not take the chance to know?
I thought Clara under the bed was her at her best. I thought that was good, for a bit. Very good actor playing Rupert as well, and Orson was good (better so far than Dan). And it's a cute idea to explain the Doctor never carrying a gun. It struck me as a cute episode all round.
But generally - maybe because I missed a bit at the beginning - I thought this was slow, not scary, and the Doctor was a rude, paranoid idiot who nearly got himself killed. I know the Doctor has always been sharp and arrogant. But Capaldi's has something feeble about him, something that needs rescuing. I get that a lot of people like that, and I accept that maybe by the end of the series I'll get why they've done that. But at the moment I find it boring. Obviously very much a minority opinion.
An interesting episode. One of the most interesting ones the show has ever done really.
The stuff under the bed/silent passenger might be Moffat playing on his usual childhood fears/tropes but it worked pretty well within the context of the episode nonetheless.
Danny's backstory got a whole lot more interesting as well. I think I will like him and Clara as a couple but the date scenes were a bit awkward to watch at times.
A great one for Capaldi's Doctor though and Capaldi himself performance wise.
The last five minutes of this episode didn't bother me as such but I can see why they might have annoyed others though, 10/10.
I agree with the jtnorth's post. The Dr is curious he stole a Tardis to travel through time and space but he didn't remove a blanket from a head to find out who or what it was. I found this part particularly annoying. I also agree that Capaldi's Dr comes across as rude and I also think quite obnoxious. Clara seems to be taking over the lead role.
However,the story was better this time and had an interesting paradox.
I agree with the jtnorth's post. The Dr is curious he stole a Tardis to travel through time and space but he didn't remove a blanket from a head to find out who or what it was. I found this part particularly annoying. I also agree that Capaldi's Dr comes across as rude and I also think quite obnoxious. Clara seems to be taking over the lead role.
However,the story was better this time and had an interesting paradox.
The Doctor was trying to keep Clara and Rupert safe, that's why he didn't remove the blanket. The same reason he ordered Clara into the TARDIS when opening the door of the time machine at the end. He is curious. He travelled to the very end of the universe to investigate a theory that the monsters under people's beds are real. Is that not curious enough for you? There's just limits to how much he's willing to endanger others to satisfy that curiosity. He might be rude and obnoxious (hilariously so!) but he's still got a good heart. I mean hearts.
The Doctor was trying to keep Clara and Rupert safe, that's why he didn't remove the blanket.
If he was that concerned that there was a dangerous "thing" present, why would he let it scurry away and just leave it to roam around a children's home full of kids.
For whatever reason, the Doctor knew that whatever was under that blanket was not a threat to anyone - probably cos he set the whole thing up.
This episode was a tour de force for Moffat, S8 and Capaldi. I've watched it twice already, the first time in many years that I've done that with a Doctor Who episode (although I would have rewatched Deep Breath after getting home from the premiere, if I'd had the option).
The concept in itself was brilliant, and the ambiguity was the whole point. I'm all for neat resolutions usually, but not in episodes like this where clear answers would be detrimental to the themes, characterisation and the whole point of the story. Forget the monster under the bed scenario. That was just framing the idea in a way that children could relate to. How many times have you heard a noise and been convinced that someone has broken into your house -- only to find that you're alone? How many times have you come home to find something has apparently moved, even though no-one possibly could have been there? How many times have you gone downstairs in the dark and just gotten the creeps? How many times have you woken up to find something in your room isn't where you remembered it being, or just felt very strongly that someone or something had been there while you slept? The whole idea is terrifying and the most frightening part is not knowing. Listen ramped this up to extreme levels: what if you could never know?? What if there was somethign that was so good at hiding, you would never ever see it? Surely then it would be possible that all these phantom intruders you've imagined could be real. And you could never, ever, know for sure.
This episode was truly inspired, heartfelt, thought-provoking, by turns hilarious and terrifying. The supporting characters were compelling and sympathetic -- with feelings and problems I think most people could relate to. And The Doctor was fascinatingly alien - like the episode, he was able to flit back and forth between hilarious and terrifying. The Doctor is still a madman in a box, but now he's not a funny haha whacky madman, he's a madman - a haunted and extreme man with all the uncertainty and tragedy that implies. And I love it.
I love that there was no clear answer on whether or not the monster existed. It left us wondering: is the Doctor right, or is he insane? And which of the these two possibilities was the most frightening?
And then we got those touching scenes with the Doctor as a child, afraid of the dark and afraid of being forced to be a soldier. I don't think the point was to insert Clara into the Doctor's history. The point was to give us a glimpse of that history and some insight into the Doctor's formative years, and Clara was simply there to grant us access to that.
10/10 for me. This is the best the show has been since it's return.
If he was that concerned that there was a dangerous "thing" present, why would he let it scurry away and just leave it to roam around a children's home full of kids.
For whatever reason, the Doctor knew that whatever was under that blanket was not a threat to anyone - probably cos he set the whole thing up.
He very clearly stated that he was afraid of what the creature might do if it was discovered.
Comments
I used to listen to Journey into Space in bed when I was a kid.Scared the life out of me but still went back for more.
Why wouldn't a time machine be able to visit somewhere while it was still in the usual universe, before it was hidden?
- from me : a human with a hilariously small brain.
This^
Glad you liked it
Can I just say to everyone wondering about Clara sewing the seeds of the future Doctor. In my opinion, she spoke the words and they were very sincere indeed, and without her delivery they could not have had the same impact, but for me the scene was a kind of a predestination paradox. Had she never met the Doctor, and had the Doctor not planted the idea into Ruperts head leading to Rupert becoming Danny, leading to Clara taking them to meet Rupert in the first place, leading to the Doctor searching for Orson, leading to Clara having to fly the Tardis to save them all, leading to the doctor moaning just when she was supposed to be concentrating on her timeline .....
well basically my point is, the Doctor has had a huge positive impact on Clara in the time he had known her. Indeed, in many ways Clara was replaying words to the young Doctor that she had heard the Doctor say to her and others before. The Doctor created the words that inspired the ... Doctor. I.e the Doctor made Clara a better person like he did with all his companions.
My anal negative was the use of the station base 6 logo on Orsons' suit which I believe either Dave_h or David_h pointed out to me in another thread ...
I also don't think much of the Doctor repeatedly insulting Clara's appearance, it's just rude and makes him look like a jerk, which is too bad because in general I do like Capaldi's Doctor.
The whole thing with Clara and the young Doctor was just another attempt to make Clara be The Most Important Companion Ever In The History Of The Show. I used to think RTD's efforts to put Rose on a pedestal were bad (and they were) but Moffat's certainly outdone him with Clara (although I do like Clara more than I like Rose).
The one part I did really like was the thing/whatever on the bed in the kid's (Danny) room and then the kid's remark about it taking the bedspread and the Doctor's subsequent remark about humans. Too bad the whole thing ended up fizzling out.
Well, St Paul's is pretty damn big and in spite of the Luftwaffe destroying virtually everything around it, it survived...now on Gallifrey, away from the Cities, a small barn surviving intact seems relatively feasible...or does your hatred of the episode affect your acceptance of possibilities?
I watched if in the dark and turned the light on pretty quick when it finished!
On re-watching yesterday I still can't get why Clara repeatedly lied about any connection with Rupert/Danny when the Doctor was trying to work out why they ended up at the children's home.
Try Robot of Sherwood?
My 8 year old is prone to nightmares so there was no way I could let him watch it, which was a pity as he is a big fan.
Once again we have timey wimey complications. I long for a 'normal' companion who just wants to go on adventures with the Doctor. I wonder will we ever get one again??
The simplest answer might be that the Doctor is her "ex-boyfriend" and she's not yet entirely comfortable talking to him about another bloke - any other bloke. She may simply have been too embarrassed to tell the Doctor that she was thinking about "another man".
On the other hand, in a 'life and death' situation, just maybe she could have helped him understand why it happened? He was well aware she was seeing someone and took her back so she could go and speak to him again,she even told him she may get a phone call, she was prepared to tell him to shut up and do as he was told but she was too scared or embarrassed to tell him that's what distracted her?
I wish she was consistant but she just isn't and it grates.
Oddly enough - I've suggested that he may have told her not to get distracted precisely cos he wanted the opposite to happen.
I say "don't think about cheese - whatever you do, do NOT think about ten different types of cheese - don't picture a big chunk of cheddar on a plate with some pickles and a stack of crackers - and definitely don't think of a glass of port and the whole lot on a silver tray with a small vase containing a single red rose"
There's no way on earth you can do anything BUT think about cheese - even if you had absolutely no thought of cheese before I mentioned it - and making it "an order" just adds to the imperative. At the very least you have to perform a mental check that you aren't thinking about cheese "by accident" - and that involves thinking about cheese.
Just from a "practical" point of view - why would the Tardis even have a "psychic interface" that can't cope with normal, erratic thought? That's like having a car that will crash if the driver thinks about sex.
Good thing, too, considering she is going to have Danny's son.
Maybe that's how she leaves the show - she can't go swanning around time & space with a pink bun in the oven.
Might end up with a timehead baby and then where would we be?
up the river without a song
But a creature that is there, under the bed, that you talk to, that is the prickling at the back of your neck, but never does anything to hurt you - what's scary about that? It just wants to hide and be around you. What's the danger? Let the poor thing.
I thought there was going to be some reason why so many people have the fear of under the bed, and I thought that was clever - but there wasn't. The explanation only applied to the Doctor.
I couldn't understand why the Doctor would not turn around to look at it. How I've always imagined the Doctor, he'd turn around. His curiosity wouldn't have been able to resist. Because what would have happened if he had? In Blink the Angels took you and trapped you, and in Midnight, the point was what people did when they were afraid (which felt more true to me, btw, than 'fear is a superpower') but here if he'd turned around all that would have happened was that he'd have found out what or who the monster/other child in the home was. How could the Doctor not take the chance to know?
I thought Clara under the bed was her at her best. I thought that was good, for a bit. Very good actor playing Rupert as well, and Orson was good (better so far than Dan). And it's a cute idea to explain the Doctor never carrying a gun. It struck me as a cute episode all round.
But generally - maybe because I missed a bit at the beginning - I thought this was slow, not scary, and the Doctor was a rude, paranoid idiot who nearly got himself killed. I know the Doctor has always been sharp and arrogant. But Capaldi's has something feeble about him, something that needs rescuing. I get that a lot of people like that, and I accept that maybe by the end of the series I'll get why they've done that. But at the moment I find it boring. Obviously very much a minority opinion.
The stuff under the bed/silent passenger might be Moffat playing on his usual childhood fears/tropes but it worked pretty well within the context of the episode nonetheless.
Danny's backstory got a whole lot more interesting as well. I think I will like him and Clara as a couple but the date scenes were a bit awkward to watch at times.
A great one for Capaldi's Doctor though and Capaldi himself performance wise.
The last five minutes of this episode didn't bother me as such but I can see why they might have annoyed others though, 10/10.
However,the story was better this time and had an interesting paradox.
The Doctor was trying to keep Clara and Rupert safe, that's why he didn't remove the blanket. The same reason he ordered Clara into the TARDIS when opening the door of the time machine at the end. He is curious. He travelled to the very end of the universe to investigate a theory that the monsters under people's beds are real. Is that not curious enough for you? There's just limits to how much he's willing to endanger others to satisfy that curiosity. He might be rude and obnoxious (hilariously so!) but he's still got a good heart. I mean hearts.
If he was that concerned that there was a dangerous "thing" present, why would he let it scurry away and just leave it to roam around a children's home full of kids.
For whatever reason, the Doctor knew that whatever was under that blanket was not a threat to anyone - probably cos he set the whole thing up.
The concept in itself was brilliant, and the ambiguity was the whole point. I'm all for neat resolutions usually, but not in episodes like this where clear answers would be detrimental to the themes, characterisation and the whole point of the story. Forget the monster under the bed scenario. That was just framing the idea in a way that children could relate to. How many times have you heard a noise and been convinced that someone has broken into your house -- only to find that you're alone? How many times have you come home to find something has apparently moved, even though no-one possibly could have been there? How many times have you gone downstairs in the dark and just gotten the creeps? How many times have you woken up to find something in your room isn't where you remembered it being, or just felt very strongly that someone or something had been there while you slept? The whole idea is terrifying and the most frightening part is not knowing. Listen ramped this up to extreme levels: what if you could never know?? What if there was somethign that was so good at hiding, you would never ever see it? Surely then it would be possible that all these phantom intruders you've imagined could be real. And you could never, ever, know for sure.
This episode was truly inspired, heartfelt, thought-provoking, by turns hilarious and terrifying. The supporting characters were compelling and sympathetic -- with feelings and problems I think most people could relate to. And The Doctor was fascinatingly alien - like the episode, he was able to flit back and forth between hilarious and terrifying. The Doctor is still a madman in a box, but now he's not a funny haha whacky madman, he's a madman - a haunted and extreme man with all the uncertainty and tragedy that implies. And I love it.
I love that there was no clear answer on whether or not the monster existed. It left us wondering: is the Doctor right, or is he insane? And which of the these two possibilities was the most frightening?
And then we got those touching scenes with the Doctor as a child, afraid of the dark and afraid of being forced to be a soldier. I don't think the point was to insert Clara into the Doctor's history. The point was to give us a glimpse of that history and some insight into the Doctor's formative years, and Clara was simply there to grant us access to that.
10/10 for me. This is the best the show has been since it's return.
He very clearly stated that he was afraid of what the creature might do if it was discovered.
[From 13/9/14 to 12pm 15/9/14]
Excellent 168 - 512 [+344]
Good 72 - 180 [+108]
Average 65 - 123 [+58]
Bad 27 - 80 [+53]
Poor 14 - 51 [+37]
Missed yesterdays pollwatch, but it does seems the vote rigger didn't bother this week. No sudden jump of 300 odd votes in 30 minutes this week!