But have you read the document linked in the first post? It dissects the show down to the bones, with instructions on when a session track must be played, when another session track must be played, when there should be a chat with the next presenter and so on. This is what I dislike about 6, and I appreciate others like it, but to me it sounds over-produced and planned down to the fine details. It needs rougher edges. Maybe Radcliffe and Maconie are the right presenters to roughen the edges but going by that document they'll have their work cut out.
I think it is probably neccessary to provide such a brief (and I am sure such a brief also applies to the current Radio Two show). It has to be part of the whole. My only saddness is that it is somehow seen as desireable to have outside production in the first place. It must surely cost more to outsource a program, but I suppose it keeps the BBC bashers in Government quiet. Wasn't "Out On Blue Six" (brilliant and much missed) an independant production? - I must seek out one of the tapes I made!
This thread seems to have broken off all over the place!
The Ross/Brand debate is old news. It probably is a percentage of the reason editorial policy has been stepped up, but equally it's not Ross and Brands fault. That show was recorded and the production team put it to air, not Russell and Jonathon. It reeks of the culture nowadays whereby something risque is broadcast on any platform and the army of do-gooders feel they should complain to Ofcom, demand the presenters are sacked and chalk another mark up on the board - because all we want is the Today programme on repeat.
Equally, that has nothing to do with the Radcliffe and Maconie debate. Their show on R2 was a specialist evening show where they had the freedom to pick and choose what was played within guidelines of tate and relevance to the station. The show they're doing on 6Music is a daytime show so has to fall within the playlist parameters. The real debate is (or should be) about the variance of 6Musics playlist.
Don't forget, they're not in a position to alienate listeners at the moment by being too niche or too 'different' in their output - PR stunt or not, they were nearly closed before!
My only saddness is that it is somehow seen as desireable to have outside production in the first place. It must surely cost more to outsource a program, but I suppose it keeps the BBC bashers in Government quiet.
I think you're confusing two issues there. Yes, the quota of indy productions is pretty much set by the BBC Trust. However, "outsourced" doesn't necessarily mean "more expensive".
Granted, this particular commissioning document does say that the fee per show will increase if the company uses their own studios but that's not always the case.
Regardless of that, it allows other players in the industry to come into the BBC, keeping more broadcasting folk in jobs, which has got to be a good thing IMHO.
It’s very interesting to compare and contrast the ‘specifications’ of the four shows currently up for grabs here, the rigidity of the daytime playlist/playout programming compared with the much less specific requirements made of the evening shows.
It’s very interesting to compare and contrast the ‘specifications’ of the four shows currently up for grabs here, the rigidity of the daytime playlist/playout programming compared with the much less specific requirements made of the evening shows.
Yep that is interesting. I think it's fair to say that we will see/are seeing 6 Music become more like Radio 2 - in terms of a slightly more mainstream feel to daytimes, and less so in the evenings.
I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing. It doesn't automatically mean that the playlists will suddendly crossover, or that 6 Music will become a clone of XFM. Like all network stations, 6 Music needs to evolve over time.
And again, it's all too easy to read something into a commissioning document and have alarm bells ringing.
For many, the biggest issue with the playlist is not necessarily the content, which often contains many artists worthy of wider public recognition, but the repetition. Twenty or more plays of the same tracks during the weekday shows ensures that you’ll hear the same singles on probably three out of every four shows. Fine for ‘pop’ stations, not so good for what one would have hoped did the same for alternative and left field music as Radio 3 does for classical. Increase the size of the new track playlist, reduce the repetition to maybe 10-12 plays per week, allow more freeplays and this would go a long way to addressing the concerns of many listeners.
Increase the size of the new track playlist, reduce the repetition to maybe 10-12 plays per week, allow more freeplays and this would go a long way to addressing the concerns of many listeners.
How many would that bethen? Or are you confusing personal opinion (perfectly enititled to) with a sweeping generalisation of somehow representing the wider listenership?
You probably won't like this, but the BBC puts a heck of a lot of money into researching its audiences and their tastes - through RAJARs, surveys, focus groups and a host of other data about the demographic.
Sure, there are going to be elements of the output or programming policy that you don't like. Everyone will have their likes and dislikes. But don't use that as an excuse to demand a tailor made station for you.
I do favour a wider playlist as there are some tracks and artists that do miss out on daytime plays that deserve to get more exposure. The 6 Music "Rebel Playlist" often exposes some excellent tracks that just miss out. That said, I think the station has been getting better at reducing repetition, and I have heard some excellent wildcards on daytime 6. As I stated earlier on I think it's about 90% right. I just hope Radcliffe and Maconie rise to the occasion and don't go too Radio Two (pop and oldies output) on us.
Though from listening I would like to agree that the station does have a habit of playing the vaccines all the time. According to http://comparemyradio.com/stations/BBC_6_Music they only play it twice a day which isn't bad at all!
Also does anyone know when Laverne is back? Im starting to get tired of so much Huey all the time!
The Ross/Brand incident did change the BBC for sure. I know plenty of people who work at the BBC & they tell me that those two idiots (their words) have made everyone elses job a lot harder.
Ross/Brand were too blame for this, not The Daily Mail who only reported the incident. Sure folks who hadn't heard it got upset & quite rightly so. We can't hear or see everything.
Ross and Brand were indeed partially to blame, but had the Daily Heil
i) not endlessly reported it
ii) not endlessly editorialised about it, day in, day out, with demands that "SOMETHING MUST BE DONE"
then it would have blown over much quicker. I'm not saying that the punishments meted out to Ross and Brand were inappropriate, but the sole driver to this was Daily Mail (and Newscorp) hatred of all things BBC.
How many would that bethen? Or are you confusing personal opinion (perfectly enititled to) with a sweeping generalisation of somehow representing the wider listenership?
You probably won't like this, but the BBC puts a heck of a lot of money into researching its audiences and their tastes - through RAJARs, surveys, focus groups and a host of other data about the demographic.
Sure, there are going to be elements of the output or programming policy that you don't like. Everyone will have their likes and dislikes. But don't use that as an excuse to demand a tailor made station for you.
Have you seen Facebook? Endless posts about endless repitition.
That document explains a lot. A station that's supposed to be eclectic, spontaneous and at the cutting edge of modern music but is hamstrung by a bureaucracy that insists on regulating every last inch of its output.
It's time 6 Music stopped being a DS untouchable and got the criticism it deserves. It's a good station but it could be so much better if the BBC let it off the leash.
Unfortunately those days seem to be long gone. It is certainly how 6 Music started.
For me the only daytime output that still harks back to the early days of 6 Music is Sunday with the likes of Cerys Matthews, Huey Morgan, and Jarvis Cocker. They seem to be able to choose their own playlists with a lot more freedom that you hear during the week.
Unfortunately those days seem to be long gone. It is certainly how 6 Music started.
For me the only daytime output that still harks back to the early days of 6 Music is Sunday with the likes of Cerys Matthews, Huey Morgan, and Jarvis Cocker. They seem to be able to choose their own playlists with a lot more freedom that you hear during the week.
I actually think it has got more eclectic during mainstream output over the last couple of years. Look at the link to this morning's Breakfast Show playlist and compare it to the station playlist. I will agree that the Sunday output is in another league, and believe Saturday could be freed up a bit, but the daytime Monday to Friday output pitches it about right. Without the playlist I fear it would slip into a diet of Smiths, Madness etc. There needs to be more new music and the playlist helps ensure that focus.
Is the tender document used previously for selecting the company that produces R and M's current Radio Two show available anywhere?. A comparison with it would help indicate whether this specification is more restricted in reality
Again, Facebook does not constitute research which is in any way representative.
Er,that's how the Save 6Music Protest was organised - polling sample 176,000. I'd be prepared to believe you assertion that in depth market research had been done on 6Music listeners as to their loves and hates if you could provide it, but in the eight years I've been tuning in I've not come across anyone who has been approached personally.
A lot of us filled in the BBC Trust consultation the other year (a significantly higher percentage than the Radio 2 audience, I might add) but even that documents recommendations appear to be going out the window. Specifically, the requirement for 6Music's main A/B Playlist not to overlap with Radio 1 or 2. Apparenty ten of the current thirty tracks appear on one or more of those station's as well. Not for nothing in this month's word does David Hepworth describe BBC Radio as having a far cosier relationship with the record companies than they would ever want Parliament to know.
So, I'm sure Mark and Stuart will be adding in a few more of their own personal favourites to the show, like a pair of naughty schoolboys. Question is, why should they need to be sneaking them in?
Though from listening I would like to agree that the station does have a habit of playing the vaccines all the time. According to http://comparemyradio.com/stations/BBC_6_Music they only play it twice a day which isn't bad at all!
They play it more than twice a day (or did, it's off the playlist now). But only weekdays - Sundays, and to some extent Saturdays, are less reliant on the playlist.
I actually think it has got more eclectic during mainstream output over the last couple of years. Look at the link to this morning's Breakfast Show playlist and compare it to the station playlist. I will agree that the Sunday output is in another league, and believe Saturday could be freed up a bit, but the daytime Monday to Friday output pitches it about right. Without the playlist I fear it would slip into a diet of Smiths, Madness etc. There needs to be more new music and the playlist helps ensure that focus.
I agree it has improved, but I do think the music remit could be widened as it has certainly narrowed over the last three or four years.
For example Bruce Dickinson's Rock Show was simply cancelled and no attempt has been made to replace it, despite the proven popularity of the harder end of rock in this country. That doesn't say much for a station that supposedly exists to push boundaries and explore new music.
6Music’s problem has always been one of visibility – despite Mapperley’s claims of extensive BBC audience research, the explanations given in the closure plan last year clearly indicated that senior management didn’t have the blithering clue who was listening to the station, their ages, musical tastes or even gender. Either that, or it was a cunning PR campaign for the station (tinfoil hat wearers need only apply for that explanation).
There definitely should be a space for these genre shows somewhere on 6Music - perhaps one each night at midnight for say metal, folk, electronica etc. But I guess costs are a factor, and I have a suspicion that Bruce’s show had rather low audience figures with little crossover from other shows on the station. Judging from the old 6Music messageboard, almost all of the posters were abroad. There is an alternate theory of a bust up with Bruce’s production company (Smooth Operations, the same as Radcliffe and Maconie on R2) as the Rock Show cancellation was announced the same week as R&M were reduced to three days, but that’s pure supposition.
Er,that's how the Save 6Music Protest was organised - polling sample 176,000. I'd be prepared to believe you assertion that in depth market research had been done on 6Music listeners as to their loves and hates if you could provide it, but in the eight years I've been tuning in I've not come across anyone who has been approached personally.
I'm sure that you're intelligent enough to recognise that almost no internal BBC audience research is ever published - nor is that done by the commercial sector because, by its very nature, it's commercially sensitive. Question it all you like, but I can assure you that it does exist.
Equally, I'm perfectly aware of the role of Facebook in mounting a very effective campaign to save 6 Music. But it doesn't automatically follow that a few people moaning about the playlist is as representative as the previous campaign. Look at what happened when Capital launched as a network - hundreds of negative and often abusive remarks - but wholly unrepresentative of the target audience.
I hate daytime radio, same old tat , same dreary records etc. Surley the point of 6M is that it should be fee of the playlist restrictions?. By having the DJ's actualy pick obscure records , play things that they like would increase listenership. The whole point of listening to Richard Serling on Jazz FM playing the old soul records was that he would chuck in things that havent been played, let alone seen the light of day in donkeys years.
The playlist obssesion is whats killing radio, same bland , formulaic tat day in day out ie 'Steve Wrights The Big Show'
Putting R&M on during the day & then telling what to play is like hiring VanGogh to give lessons on painting & telling him he can only use biro's.
Name me a radio station that has no playlist restrictions at all, and I'll show you a station that'll be dead within months.
And it's not just about ratings. Listeners do want an air of familiarity when they tune in. But having a playlist doesn't necessarily mean bland output.
Comments
Reminded me of John Peel when he presented TOTP. I enjoyed his intros.
I think it is probably neccessary to provide such a brief (and I am sure such a brief also applies to the current Radio Two show). It has to be part of the whole. My only saddness is that it is somehow seen as desireable to have outside production in the first place. It must surely cost more to outsource a program, but I suppose it keeps the BBC bashers in Government quiet. Wasn't "Out On Blue Six" (brilliant and much missed) an independant production? - I must seek out one of the tapes I made!
The Ross/Brand debate is old news. It probably is a percentage of the reason editorial policy has been stepped up, but equally it's not Ross and Brands fault. That show was recorded and the production team put it to air, not Russell and Jonathon. It reeks of the culture nowadays whereby something risque is broadcast on any platform and the army of do-gooders feel they should complain to Ofcom, demand the presenters are sacked and chalk another mark up on the board - because all we want is the Today programme on repeat.
Equally, that has nothing to do with the Radcliffe and Maconie debate. Their show on R2 was a specialist evening show where they had the freedom to pick and choose what was played within guidelines of tate and relevance to the station. The show they're doing on 6Music is a daytime show so has to fall within the playlist parameters. The real debate is (or should be) about the variance of 6Musics playlist.
Don't forget, they're not in a position to alienate listeners at the moment by being too niche or too 'different' in their output - PR stunt or not, they were nearly closed before!
Absolutely right. This is a briefing document to help a production company pitch their work, nothing more. Don't read too much into it.
I think you're confusing two issues there. Yes, the quota of indy productions is pretty much set by the BBC Trust. However, "outsourced" doesn't necessarily mean "more expensive".
Granted, this particular commissioning document does say that the fee per show will increase if the company uses their own studios but that's not always the case.
Regardless of that, it allows other players in the industry to come into the BBC, keeping more broadcasting folk in jobs, which has got to be a good thing IMHO.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/commissioning/radio/network/6music.shtml
Yep that is interesting. I think it's fair to say that we will see/are seeing 6 Music become more like Radio 2 - in terms of a slightly more mainstream feel to daytimes, and less so in the evenings.
I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing. It doesn't automatically mean that the playlists will suddendly crossover, or that 6 Music will become a clone of XFM. Like all network stations, 6 Music needs to evolve over time.
And again, it's all too easy to read something into a commissioning document and have alarm bells ringing.
How many would that bethen? Or are you confusing personal opinion (perfectly enititled to) with a sweeping generalisation of somehow representing the wider listenership?
You probably won't like this, but the BBC puts a heck of a lot of money into researching its audiences and their tastes - through RAJARs, surveys, focus groups and a host of other data about the demographic.
Sure, there are going to be elements of the output or programming policy that you don't like. Everyone will have their likes and dislikes. But don't use that as an excuse to demand a tailor made station for you.
Also does anyone know when Laverne is back? Im starting to get tired of so much Huey all the time!
Ross and Brand were indeed partially to blame, but had the Daily Heil
i) not endlessly reported it
ii) not endlessly editorialised about it, day in, day out, with demands that "SOMETHING MUST BE DONE"
then it would have blown over much quicker. I'm not saying that the punishments meted out to Ross and Brand were inappropriate, but the sole driver to this was Daily Mail (and Newscorp) hatred of all things BBC.
Have you seen Facebook? Endless posts about endless repitition.
A week on Monday:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/proginfo/radio/2011/wk9/mon.shtml#mon_lauren
Again, Facebook does not constitute research which is in any way representative.
Unfortunately those days seem to be long gone. It is certainly how 6 Music started.
For me the only daytime output that still harks back to the early days of 6 Music is Sunday with the likes of Cerys Matthews, Huey Morgan, and Jarvis Cocker. They seem to be able to choose their own playlists with a lot more freedom that you hear during the week.
I actually think it has got more eclectic during mainstream output over the last couple of years. Look at the link to this morning's Breakfast Show playlist and compare it to the station playlist. I will agree that the Sunday output is in another league, and believe Saturday could be freed up a bit, but the daytime Monday to Friday output pitches it about right. Without the playlist I fear it would slip into a diet of Smiths, Madness etc. There needs to be more new music and the playlist helps ensure that focus.
Er,that's how the Save 6Music Protest was organised - polling sample 176,000. I'd be prepared to believe you assertion that in depth market research had been done on 6Music listeners as to their loves and hates if you could provide it, but in the eight years I've been tuning in I've not come across anyone who has been approached personally.
A lot of us filled in the BBC Trust consultation the other year (a significantly higher percentage than the Radio 2 audience, I might add) but even that documents recommendations appear to be going out the window. Specifically, the requirement for 6Music's main A/B Playlist not to overlap with Radio 1 or 2. Apparenty ten of the current thirty tracks appear on one or more of those station's as well. Not for nothing in this month's word does David Hepworth describe BBC Radio as having a far cosier relationship with the record companies than they would ever want Parliament to know.
So, I'm sure Mark and Stuart will be adding in a few more of their own personal favourites to the show, like a pair of naughty schoolboys. Question is, why should they need to be sneaking them in?
They play it more than twice a day (or did, it's off the playlist now). But only weekdays - Sundays, and to some extent Saturdays, are less reliant on the playlist.
I agree it has improved, but I do think the music remit could be widened as it has certainly narrowed over the last three or four years.
For example Bruce Dickinson's Rock Show was simply cancelled and no attempt has been made to replace it, despite the proven popularity of the harder end of rock in this country. That doesn't say much for a station that supposedly exists to push boundaries and explore new music.
There definitely should be a space for these genre shows somewhere on 6Music - perhaps one each night at midnight for say metal, folk, electronica etc. But I guess costs are a factor, and I have a suspicion that Bruce’s show had rather low audience figures with little crossover from other shows on the station. Judging from the old 6Music messageboard, almost all of the posters were abroad. There is an alternate theory of a bust up with Bruce’s production company (Smooth Operations, the same as Radcliffe and Maconie on R2) as the Rock Show cancellation was announced the same week as R&M were reduced to three days, but that’s pure supposition.
I'm sure that you're intelligent enough to recognise that almost no internal BBC audience research is ever published - nor is that done by the commercial sector because, by its very nature, it's commercially sensitive. Question it all you like, but I can assure you that it does exist.
Equally, I'm perfectly aware of the role of Facebook in mounting a very effective campaign to save 6 Music. But it doesn't automatically follow that a few people moaning about the playlist is as representative as the previous campaign. Look at what happened when Capital launched as a network - hundreds of negative and often abusive remarks - but wholly unrepresentative of the target audience.
The playlist obssesion is whats killing radio, same bland , formulaic tat day in day out ie 'Steve Wrights The Big Show'
Putting R&M on during the day & then telling what to play is like hiring VanGogh to give lessons on painting & telling him he can only use biro's.
And it's not just about ratings. Listeners do want an air of familiarity when they tune in. But having a playlist doesn't necessarily mean bland output.