Offline disc-based authentication will only work if they haven't been so dumb as to assume getting acceptance of online authentication was a given. In other words, if there is at present in their plans no disc-based protection (like that of late era PS1 discs, custom format DC or XBox and so on) and the media is just BD-Rom or DVD-Rom, then they could be copied, meaning they'd have to go work up a quick fix to get such a system in place before mastering discs.
I did read recently about Xbox One discs allegedly having some sort of embedded RFID chip, which would contain the unique code for the disc and act as an authentication method. It may well be complete nonsense, of course...
It's only gonna be a flop in forum land, I see no reason for the XBOX ONE to 'flop', it's brimming with features and is a more than capable games machine.
I am very certain it won't. In fact, I'm near enough 100% certain.
If this launch has taught us anything, it's Microsoft want complete and utter control. They want to control how you use your game, when you can use your game and how you can sell your game.
If disc authentication was to feature, then people could simply sell and borrow/share games as they do now. We already know this isn't the case.
Plus, if one person installed the game and chose to authenticate online every 24 hours, then gave the game to someone else, and they chose disc authentication, keeping their XBone offline, then that would obviously be bad for MS. No way would they allow that to happen.
It's not going to happen I'm afraid, unless MS have a huge change in policy.
The consumer has to face facts, with the XBOX One, you don't actually own anything, and the thousands of pounds you pay for your software could be rendered useless at the whim of Microsoft. It's totally unfair and outrageous.
I understand where you're coming from, but you should understand that it's pretty much a no-brainer to develop and implement appropriate protocols to support internet and disc-based authentication.
Here's how it might work...
Each disc is embedded with a unique code and copy protection systems that allow the game to be played without an internet connection but requiring a disc to be present.
When the game is installed to the hard drive (mandatory) another unique license key is generated that ties the game license to the console ID; this happens with or without an internet connection. The new license key identifies the console and the unique game disc.
To play the game from the hard drive without the game disc inserted an internet connection is required to intermittently authenticate the install, which in part prevents games being installed to the hard drive on an XBox with an internet connection and the disc being sold or passed on for use on another XBox with an internet connection.
However, this does present an opportunity to have an install on an XBox with an internet connection and on another XBox without an internet connection, but with the game disc present; this XBox must never ever be connected to the internet as the use of the game will persist in memory. Features and additional content will be dangled to encourage at least occasional connection to the net (no download and burn to disc here! lol).
If MS are really, really bothered about this latter issue they could force authentication by other means. For XBoxes without an internet connection, the console may display the unique key that identifies the game disc and console on the screen and require the user to register the 'marriage' via text message or by the current MS computer software backup method of telephone (automated IVR with agent backup); only the code would be required as MS are only really bothered about the game and console identifications. Authenticating by this method would return another code that is manually input into the console by the user and allow the game to be played with the game disc present.
DRM sucks, and yes, MS want control. I don't necessarily agree with what they're doing, but I do understand why they're doing it ($$$$$$$$$$); I'm just trying to point out that an internet connection is not necessary for them to achieve their objectives.
I understand where you're coming from, but you should understand that it's pretty much a no-brainer to develop and implement appropriate protocols to support internet and disc-based authentication.
I'm just trying to point out that an internet connection is not necessary for them to achieve their objectives.
Yes, I understand, and I understand why it isn't necessary.
But the fact is, they are NOT doing this. They are going for online authentication only. That's what they have chosen.
Yes, I understand, and I understand why it isn't necessary.
But the fact is, they are NOT doing this. They are going for online authentication only. That's what they have chosen.
Unless they have a major re-think.
There is no fact in the wild that MS have chosen online authentication only. There is deduction to say that, from the statements that are out there, even then there have been contradictory comments from MS since the reveal. Certain functionality will require an internet connection (fast game switching), as I have explained before.
I do think that people are getting themselves in something of a lather when there really isn't much in the way of hard facts! Lol.
Ultimately, if we're not happy with what MS puts on the shelf, we don't have to buy it, and with the lack of b/w compatibility there's one less reason to remain loyal to XBox.
Or, if the XBox ONE and its DRM techniques distress you so much, put your money where your mouth is and go somewhere else. Ultimately, there is a choice.
I did read recently about Xbox One discs allegedly having some sort of embedded RFID chip, which would contain the unique code for the disc and act as an authentication method. It may well be complete nonsense, of course...
As I recall, Sony initially planned for Blu-Ray discs to latch onto their initial players, but back then those plans nearly killed the format before it was released and Sony was deep in the red.
There is no fact in the wild that MS have chosen online authentication only. There is deduction to say that, from the statements that are out there, even then there have been contradictory comments from MS since the reveal. Certain functionality will require an internet connection (fast game switching), as I have explained before.
I do think that people are getting themselves in something of a lather when there really isn't much in the way of hard facts! Lol.
Ultimately, if we're not happy with what MS puts on the shelf, we don't have to buy it, and with the lack of b/w compatibility there's one less reason to remain loyal to XBox.
Or, if the XBox ONE and its DRM techniques distress you so much, put your money where your mouth is and go somewhere else. Ultimately, there is a choice.
We will see. To be honest, I think people who aren't expecting the full force of anti consumer DRM to come crashing down upon them, need to get their head out of the sand.
Nah it won't flop. When the price comes down inevitably over the first 18 months of release, to I would guess the £300 mark, then I and many others will ditch the xbox 360 (that's if the red rings of death haven't struck in the meantime!) and upgrade.
M$ know this, as do Sony. Only diehard fans will buy them on release, or those with holes in their wallets.
As said earlier in the thread, the latest GTA game is out in September, and I got at least a year out of the previous one playing on multiplayer.
Most people will upgrade, but it won't be overnight. How many people still use Windows XP for instance?
Nah it won't flop. When the price comes down inevitably over the first 18 months of release, to I would guess the £300 mark,
at present i wouldn't have one if it was offered to me for free (And i seriously mean that).
i've little doubt there will be some great games for the xbox one, however there's so much i don't like about how the system works (mandatory kinect, mandatory game installs & all teh other similar things) i'll never buy one even if the best game ever made which i'd surely love is released exclusively for it.
and same is true for the ps4 if the move camera thing is mandatory with its stupid light bar & speakers etc... i don't want all this stuff to be forced on me. if i want to use move/kinect, if i want a light & speaker on the control pad the option should be there IF i want to use them, they should not be forced on everyone as a mandatory part of the system.
i have yet to buy a Wii U (and will likely never buy one) because i don't like the tablet controller been required same reason i didn't buy the 1st wii for the silly motion controls, i don't want these gimmicks.
I will probably wait until the first 12 months have passed before deciding on which console to buy. I'm leaning towards the Xbox One because I really want Forza 5 but will wait for a year before actually comitting to buying it.
One thing which gets me though is I've read that for every Xbox game you have to install it on the HDD and you can't play it from the actual disc. This sounds like a good idea in the short term but in the longer term you would surely run out of hard drive space which would mean you probably having to delete some of your games to free up space, especially if they are going to take up some 10-15GB of space per game (like they currently do on PS+ on the PS3).
I know you would probably still have the original game in the box to install it again if you wanted to (that's assuming you've not traded it in before hand) but if you didn't have the disc to do this would that game you have deleted remain on your HDD profile so you could re-download again in the future?
I expect to get the new Xbox in the first few months of release. I think the Internet is going over the top complaining about the Xbox one,
Game installs - I already do
Online connection - in 7 years I've only had connection issues a few times.
Kinnect included - very obvious that was going to happen so no surprise.
Xbox becoming more of a entertainment system to a wider audience is expected because many xboxes have spent just as much time playing media as well as playing games.
Microsoft is putting a lot of money into exclusive new games and will have good 3rd party support so they won't be a shortage of good games and spec wise it isn't too far behind the ps4 and most people won't be able to tell the difference between them.
They did get the launch event wrong though, they should have concentrated on games first and entertainment at a later date, the backlash on the Internet did show they didn't speak to their main audience. It's the hardcore fans that will be buying the console on release not the casual audience they won't be buying a Xbox format least another 3 years.
Fair enough, I don't as I don't want to waste HDD space when I have the game disc.
If they want to include it fine but it shouldn't be mandatory, Especially when the 500Gb internal HDD can't be upgraded.
I don't want to constantly have to uninstall games to make room for others, Especially given I constantly go back & re-play older titles for a short time every now & again.
Before I upgraded my PS3 HDD, I was constantly having to uninstall/re-install games I had got off PSN as I got a new game yet decided to go back & replay an old game (Especially if a friend came over & we wanted to play something I'd deleted Local 2-player).
Same was true on my old 20gb Xbox360 with XBLA titles.
Also I don't spend £40 to buy a game to have the case/disc just sit on a shelf never to be touched again after the initial install.
Kinnect included - very obvious that was going to happen so no surprise.
I don't have an issue with Kinect been included in the box, I just don't think it should be mandatory to have it plugged in/setup to be able to use the system.
As I said in the past, I don't have any room anywhere around my TV to even put the thing so even if I wanted to use it (Which I don't) I couldn't.
Include it in the box but you should only have to plug it in & have it setup IF you want to use it.
Xbox becoming more of a entertainment system to a wider audience is expected because many xboxes have spent just as much time playing media as well as playing games.
Again I don't have issue with them including some of this stuff providing that all this extra TV, Entertainment & social media stuff is kept out the way so that those who only want to use it to play games don't have to look at/wade through it on the Dashboard.
When they showed off the Dash at the unveil the games section was about the 3rd tab along forcing you to go through a 'Featured' section before been able to get to the games.
On a games console the gaming element should be the 1st screen you see & all the extra stuff should be kept out the way for those who wish to use them. Those only interested in the games should be able to do so without having to wade through all the extra stuff there not interested in on the menu.
As I've said before, I think they should allow you to customize the Dashboard more & even completely disable & even remove from the dash the features you don't want.
Games are not locked to the machine, you will be able to play on ANY Xbox One so long as you use your profile. MS have a plan in store not yet fully revealed to allow you to trade in, rent and buy pre-owned games, but these changes are being made so that part of that fee will change hands from greedy high-street stores to the publisher/developer (who currently see no profit from preowned sales). It's only fair tbh. Sony will also adopt the same/similar strategy and they have not confirmed the finer details on pre-owned games yet themselves.
Why is it only fair ? If i buy a car direct from Ford then after 4 years i decide to sell that car onto somone else, I get the money from the person buying it. Ford don't get a cut as they got their share of the money when they sold it to me in the first place.
Mines never left its packaging ... Got it with the 250GB slim but couldn't be bothered 2 set it up!!!
Kinect? 'kin 'ell, more like!
I got it with my new slim when the Elite gave up the ghost. I set it up, tried out all the K games I had with it, was singularly unimpressed and never used it again. Unresponsive and boring.
I gave it to my 5 year-old nephew who loves it. So at least it was useful for something. I suspect the Xbox and PS markets are diverging. I just hope there are enough children in the demographic to sustain an entire next gen of MS console. It would seem unlikely at first glance.
I expect to get the new Xbox in the first few months of release. I think the Internet is going over the top complaining about the Xbox one,
Game installs - I already do
Online connection - in 7 years I've only had connection issues a few times.
Kinnect included - very obvious that was going to happen so no surprise.
Xbox becoming more of a entertainment system to a wider audience is expected because many xboxes have spent just as much time playing media as well as playing games.
Microsoft is putting a lot of money into exclusive new games and will have good 3rd party support so they won't be a shortage of good games and spec wise it isn't too far behind the ps4 and most people won't be able to tell the difference between them.
They did get the launch event wrong though, they should have concentrated on games first and entertainment at a later date, the backlash on the Internet did show they didn't speak to their main audience. It's the hardcore fans that will be buying the console on release not the casual audience they won't be buying a Xbox format least another 3 years.
...AND when Microsoft stop supporting the XBone? You'll have nothing. It won't work. Full stop.
Why is it only fair ? If i buy a car direct from Ford then after 4 years i decide to sell that car onto somone else, I get the money from the person buying it. Ford don't get a cut as they got their share of the money when they sold it to me in the first place.
It's not fair and it badly harm titles that don't take long to complete, who is going to pay £50 for a game they finish in 10 hours or less?
Or if you happen to just dislike the game with no way of a refund.
If Sony also do this I won't be getting any next gen console out of principle.
So now Microsoft have cancelled the Q&A session following their E3 reveal?
I guess they don't want any reporters asking awkward questions after the glossy presentation telling everyone how great the One is.
Wow, just wow... Head + Sand = Microsoft
The rumours that are starting to pop up about MS having to "Underclock" the One in order to prevent it doing a RROD equivalent are certainly not going to do them any favours :eek:
Eating hat today following yesterday's confirmation that if you don't have an internet connection then you can't play games on the XBox One. Period.
This wouldn't be so bad if you're in the market for a blu-ray player and the XBOne's price is about £50, but that's not likely is it?
I suspect that Microsoft will sell this requirement as being necessary due to some of the processing in games being offloaded to the cloud, so any buyers will be paying for a box that, compared to the PS4, is missing some of the hardware and its benefits (lower bandwidth RAM and buses, graphical capabilities) and paying for virtual versions of these separately through XBL subscription and broadband connection.
In a world where reliable broadband connections are not as widespread or as available Microsoft believes, the XBox team has excluded large swathes of rural europe, huge numbers of kids that don't have access to a broadband connection at home due to parental restrictions or financial constraints during an especially sustained wobbly economic period, and millions of potential customers that will not fork out a substantial amount of cash for a dumb terminal - a gaming console that becomes a brick when they lose or can't afford a broadband connection.
When MS decide to stop supporting the console they can disable the ping, it wouldnt be hard to do. Problem solved.
That's a best-case assumption. Problem is, because Microsoft don't own the rights to every game published on the platform, they can't globally unlock anything but their own titles, without securing permission from every other copyright holder.
Even before E3 it's an obvious FLOP. Floppy hardware (underclocked and DDR3 lol fail), Floppy software, FLoppy Controllers (still use batteries!!) and all these restrictions, it's just flop city over at M$.
Sony truly are the white knights of gaming, PS4 has crazy horsepower (I heard NASA are using PS4 unique architecture (inc 8gb GDDR5) for advanced computational tasks regarding satellites navigating our solar system), amazing line-up of games Drive Club looks to be the best sim racers ever made, comes from the Motorstorm guys after all. You just can't go wrong with Killzone either, a purebred AAA FPS which makes Halo look amateur by comparison, so much so the only way MS could compete with Shadow Fall is by cheating and creating a TV show with Spielberg LOLOL
Comments
Bring it on.
I cannot wait to get mine.
I understand where you're coming from, but you should understand that it's pretty much a no-brainer to develop and implement appropriate protocols to support internet and disc-based authentication.
Here's how it might work...
Each disc is embedded with a unique code and copy protection systems that allow the game to be played without an internet connection but requiring a disc to be present.
When the game is installed to the hard drive (mandatory) another unique license key is generated that ties the game license to the console ID; this happens with or without an internet connection. The new license key identifies the console and the unique game disc.
To play the game from the hard drive without the game disc inserted an internet connection is required to intermittently authenticate the install, which in part prevents games being installed to the hard drive on an XBox with an internet connection and the disc being sold or passed on for use on another XBox with an internet connection.
However, this does present an opportunity to have an install on an XBox with an internet connection and on another XBox without an internet connection, but with the game disc present; this XBox must never ever be connected to the internet as the use of the game will persist in memory. Features and additional content will be dangled to encourage at least occasional connection to the net (no download and burn to disc here! lol).
If MS are really, really bothered about this latter issue they could force authentication by other means. For XBoxes without an internet connection, the console may display the unique key that identifies the game disc and console on the screen and require the user to register the 'marriage' via text message or by the current MS computer software backup method of telephone (automated IVR with agent backup); only the code would be required as MS are only really bothered about the game and console identifications. Authenticating by this method would return another code that is manually input into the console by the user and allow the game to be played with the game disc present.
DRM sucks, and yes, MS want control. I don't necessarily agree with what they're doing, but I do understand why they're doing it ($$$$$$$$$$); I'm just trying to point out that an internet connection is not necessary for them to achieve their objectives.
Yes, I understand, and I understand why it isn't necessary.
But the fact is, they are NOT doing this. They are going for online authentication only. That's what they have chosen.
Unless they have a major re-think.
There is no fact in the wild that MS have chosen online authentication only. There is deduction to say that, from the statements that are out there, even then there have been contradictory comments from MS since the reveal. Certain functionality will require an internet connection (fast game switching), as I have explained before.
I do think that people are getting themselves in something of a lather when there really isn't much in the way of hard facts! Lol.
Ultimately, if we're not happy with what MS puts on the shelf, we don't have to buy it, and with the lack of b/w compatibility there's one less reason to remain loyal to XBox.
Or, if the XBox ONE and its DRM techniques distress you so much, put your money where your mouth is and go somewhere else. Ultimately, there is a choice.
As I recall, Sony initially planned for Blu-Ray discs to latch onto their initial players, but back then those plans nearly killed the format before it was released and Sony was deep in the red.
We will see. To be honest, I think people who aren't expecting the full force of anti consumer DRM to come crashing down upon them, need to get their head out of the sand.
M$ know this, as do Sony. Only diehard fans will buy them on release, or those with holes in their wallets.
As said earlier in the thread, the latest GTA game is out in September, and I got at least a year out of the previous one playing on multiplayer.
Most people will upgrade, but it won't be overnight. How many people still use Windows XP for instance?
i've little doubt there will be some great games for the xbox one, however there's so much i don't like about how the system works (mandatory kinect, mandatory game installs & all teh other similar things) i'll never buy one even if the best game ever made which i'd surely love is released exclusively for it.
and same is true for the ps4 if the move camera thing is mandatory with its stupid light bar & speakers etc... i don't want all this stuff to be forced on me. if i want to use move/kinect, if i want a light & speaker on the control pad the option should be there IF i want to use them, they should not be forced on everyone as a mandatory part of the system.
i have yet to buy a Wii U (and will likely never buy one) because i don't like the tablet controller been required same reason i didn't buy the 1st wii for the silly motion controls, i don't want these gimmicks.
One thing which gets me though is I've read that for every Xbox game you have to install it on the HDD and you can't play it from the actual disc. This sounds like a good idea in the short term but in the longer term you would surely run out of hard drive space which would mean you probably having to delete some of your games to free up space, especially if they are going to take up some 10-15GB of space per game (like they currently do on PS+ on the PS3).
I know you would probably still have the original game in the box to install it again if you wanted to (that's assuming you've not traded it in before hand) but if you didn't have the disc to do this would that game you have deleted remain on your HDD profile so you could re-download again in the future?
Game installs - I already do
Online connection - in 7 years I've only had connection issues a few times.
Kinnect included - very obvious that was going to happen so no surprise.
Xbox becoming more of a entertainment system to a wider audience is expected because many xboxes have spent just as much time playing media as well as playing games.
Microsoft is putting a lot of money into exclusive new games and will have good 3rd party support so they won't be a shortage of good games and spec wise it isn't too far behind the ps4 and most people won't be able to tell the difference between them.
They did get the launch event wrong though, they should have concentrated on games first and entertainment at a later date, the backlash on the Internet did show they didn't speak to their main audience. It's the hardcore fans that will be buying the console on release not the casual audience they won't be buying a Xbox format least another 3 years.
If they want to include it fine but it shouldn't be mandatory, Especially when the 500Gb internal HDD can't be upgraded.
I don't want to constantly have to uninstall games to make room for others, Especially given I constantly go back & re-play older titles for a short time every now & again.
Before I upgraded my PS3 HDD, I was constantly having to uninstall/re-install games I had got off PSN as I got a new game yet decided to go back & replay an old game (Especially if a friend came over & we wanted to play something I'd deleted Local 2-player).
Same was true on my old 20gb Xbox360 with XBLA titles.
Also I don't spend £40 to buy a game to have the case/disc just sit on a shelf never to be touched again after the initial install.
I don't have an issue with Kinect been included in the box, I just don't think it should be mandatory to have it plugged in/setup to be able to use the system.
As I said in the past, I don't have any room anywhere around my TV to even put the thing so even if I wanted to use it (Which I don't) I couldn't.
Include it in the box but you should only have to plug it in & have it setup IF you want to use it.
Again I don't have issue with them including some of this stuff providing that all this extra TV, Entertainment & social media stuff is kept out the way so that those who only want to use it to play games don't have to look at/wade through it on the Dashboard.
When they showed off the Dash at the unveil the games section was about the 3rd tab along forcing you to go through a 'Featured' section before been able to get to the games.
On a games console the gaming element should be the 1st screen you see & all the extra stuff should be kept out the way for those who wish to use them. Those only interested in the games should be able to do so without having to wade through all the extra stuff there not interested in on the menu.
As I've said before, I think they should allow you to customize the Dashboard more & even completely disable & even remove from the dash the features you don't want.
Why is it only fair ? If i buy a car direct from Ford then after 4 years i decide to sell that car onto somone else, I get the money from the person buying it. Ford don't get a cut as they got their share of the money when they sold it to me in the first place.
Kinect? 'kin 'ell, more like!
I got it with my new slim when the Elite gave up the ghost. I set it up, tried out all the K games I had with it, was singularly unimpressed and never used it again. Unresponsive and boring.
I gave it to my 5 year-old nephew who loves it. So at least it was useful for something. I suspect the Xbox and PS markets are diverging. I just hope there are enough children in the demographic to sustain an entire next gen of MS console. It would seem unlikely at first glance.
...AND when Microsoft stop supporting the XBone? You'll have nothing. It won't work. Full stop.
It's not fair and it badly harm titles that don't take long to complete, who is going to pay £50 for a game they finish in 10 hours or less?
Or if you happen to just dislike the game with no way of a refund.
If Sony also do this I won't be getting any next gen console out of principle.
Ditto.
I guess they don't want any reporters asking awkward questions after the glossy presentation telling everyone how great the One is.
Wow, just wow... Head + Sand = Microsoft
The rumours that are starting to pop up about MS having to "Underclock" the One in order to prevent it doing a RROD equivalent are certainly not going to do them any favours :eek:
Pre-ordered yet? No me neither
The online heartbeat the Xbox is expected to do isn't set in stone and could change at any time.
When MS decide to stop supporting the console they can disable the ping, it wouldnt be hard to do. Problem solved.
This wouldn't be so bad if you're in the market for a blu-ray player and the XBOne's price is about £50, but that's not likely is it?
I suspect that Microsoft will sell this requirement as being necessary due to some of the processing in games being offloaded to the cloud, so any buyers will be paying for a box that, compared to the PS4, is missing some of the hardware and its benefits (lower bandwidth RAM and buses, graphical capabilities) and paying for virtual versions of these separately through XBL subscription and broadband connection.
In a world where reliable broadband connections are not as widespread or as available Microsoft believes, the XBox team has excluded large swathes of rural europe, huge numbers of kids that don't have access to a broadband connection at home due to parental restrictions or financial constraints during an especially sustained wobbly economic period, and millions of potential customers that will not fork out a substantial amount of cash for a dumb terminal - a gaming console that becomes a brick when they lose or can't afford a broadband connection.
Not so much the XBox One as the XBox WON'T.
That's a best-case assumption. Problem is, because Microsoft don't own the rights to every game published on the platform, they can't globally unlock anything but their own titles, without securing permission from every other copyright holder.
Sony truly are the white knights of gaming, PS4 has crazy horsepower (I heard NASA are using PS4 unique architecture (inc 8gb GDDR5) for advanced computational tasks regarding satellites navigating our solar system), amazing line-up of games Drive Club looks to be the best sim racers ever made, comes from the Motorstorm guys after all. You just can't go wrong with Killzone either, a purebred AAA FPS which makes Halo look amateur by comparison, so much so the only way MS could compete with Shadow Fall is by cheating and creating a TV show with Spielberg LOLOL