Leading Tory minister exposed as 'tax dodging' Buy-to-Let investor

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  • GibsonSGGibsonSG Posts: 23,681
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    You are scraping the bottom of the barrel now.

    You can not go around saying laws you don't like are immoral just to satisfy your political motivation.

    To equate buy to let schemes with murder is ridiculous and I hope you know that.

    Lets see how moral you are, The government taxes the earnings of prostitution. These taxes go to pay for government services like benefits and the NHS, Do you refrain from taking benefits or using the NHS on moral grounds because they are financed by taxes on immoral earnings ?

    Well there are some interesting arguments there but what it amounts to is that MP's are held to a higher standard. It is a strange conundrum in our society that people that court the public - politicians, celebrities and so on - feel they are above any kind of criticism.

    We are not talking about government by the way we are talking about individuals.

    In addition I am reminded of the comedy program 'The New Statesman' every time I hear of a Tory MP using some new law to line their pockets. Maybe we should get them to emulate the episode where Ba'stard campaigns to bring back hanging because he owns the company that makes gallows and then gets arrested by mistake for murder.
  • DiscombobulateDiscombobulate Posts: 4,242
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    GibsonSG wrote: »
    Well there are some interesting arguments there but what it amounts to is that MP's are held to a higher standard. It is a strange conundrum in our society that people that court the public - politicians, celebrities and so on - feel they are above any kind of criticism.

    We are not talking about government by the way we are talking about individuals.

    In addition I am reminded of the comedy program 'The New Statesman' every time I hear of a Tory MP using some new law to line their pockets. Maybe we should get them to emulate the episode where Ba'stard campaigns to bring back hanging because he owns the company that makes gallows and then gets arrested by mistake for murder.

    How quaint you still think MPs are held to a higher standard. Its as if the expenses scandal never happened.

    What she is doing is perfectly legal. Actually she is using tax laws specifically designed by all governments to boost the supply of rental properties. If the government wanted to stop it they could do so tomorrow but then what would they do when the supply of rented houses dries up and prices rocket (or rocket further if you prefer)?

    It is very easy to be outraged, its a bit more difficult to make the situation better ....
  • Richard1960Richard1960 Posts: 20,336
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    flagpole wrote: »
    It is the normal way buy to let's are structured.
    It doesn't look good in the sense that it provides an attack vector. But it's still nothing.

    Yes i agree but who sets the rules via tax strcuture now this is a very diificult one to answer er er,hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Ah the Politicians probably the same ones who are benefitting from the current buy to let rip off.
  • Richard1960Richard1960 Posts: 20,336
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    How quaint you still think MPs are held to a higher standard. Its as if the expenses scandal never happened.

    What she is doing is perfectly legal. Actually she is using tax laws specifically designed by all governments to boost the supply of rental properties. If the government wanted to stop it they could do so tomorrow but then what would they do when the supply of rented houses dries up and prices rocket (or rocket further if you prefer)?
    It is very easy to be outraged, its a bit more difficult to make the situation better ....

    Build social housing possibly at reasonable rents for non profit.;-)
  • nomad2kingnomad2king Posts: 8,415
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    a) No tax has been dodged yet in any way. It's related to inheritance tax.
    b) How about the Millibands?
    Link
    At some point after he died in 1994, his widow and two sons signed a "deed of variation" to his will that gave Ed and David each a 20% share in the house, which meant that on their mother's death they would pay inheritance tax only on the remaining 60%.
    ...
    Miliband, therefore, could own a separate house and not pay capital gains when he sold it. No evidence was offered that he does have a second home posing as a first.
    ...
    The pair have legitimately avoided more than £135,000 in capital gains tax on the sale of three properties by being unmarried", wrote the Sunday Times, implying, without going into the maths, that this had been deliberate policy earlier in their relationship when they kept separate flats.
    c) A deliberate attempt to dodge tax would be raising a 2nd mortgage on your home, using the money to buy investments and then suddenly paying off the 2nd mortgage with a payment coming from a tax haven, therefore dodging tax and money laundering rules. The dodged tax was paid because they were caught out. Nothing more happened even though it was obviously a deliberate premeditated attempt to evade tax as it involved a Labour MP, ie Tessa Jowell.
  • DiscombobulateDiscombobulate Posts: 4,242
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    Build social housing possibly at reasonable rents for non profit.;-)

    Have you got a spare 10 or 20 billion to pay for them, and even if you have that will still only make a small dent in the problem
  • TassiumTassium Posts: 31,639
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    Imagine a person who looked for, and exploited, loop-holes in laws concerning fraud. i.e. benefits.

    You would expect their claims of "it's all legal" to be tested in court...


    But when it's alleged tax fraud we rarely see anyone in court. Their claim of it being legal is just taken to be correct.

    Surely if more people who did these tax things were taken to court more often we would see tax avoidance fall? In other words where is the deterence.
  • Richard1960Richard1960 Posts: 20,336
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    Have you got a spare 10 of 20 billion to pay for them, and even if you have that will still only make a small dent in the problem

    No but the Uk government must have cash as before the ukraine crises got to where it has today Geroge Osbourne was offering to open his cheque book to the tune of half a billion.

    So why not build affordable housing get people back to work and provide non rip off housing.

    Answer because a lot of the politicians have a vested interest in the housing market as it is currently structured.
  • DiscombobulateDiscombobulate Posts: 4,242
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    No but the Uk government must have cash as before the ukraine crises got to where it has today Geroge Osbourne was offering to open his cheque book to the tune of half a billion.

    So why not build affordable housing get people back to work and provide non rip off housing.

    Answer because a lot of the politicians have a vested interest in the housing market as it is currently structured.

    In case you missed it we have a national debt of £1.3 trillion. The Government gets blamed for the rate at which it is increasing and yet the very same people object to all cuts and find new ways to spend yet more money - like you have just done. No wonder we are in a mess.

    Housing has been neglected in this country for the last 50 years by all governments and it will take decades to sort out, even if we did have the money - which we don't
  • gummy mummygummy mummy Posts: 26,600
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    from the Independent link
    In a speech, Mr Osborne said: “A very important part of our economic plan is that everyone makes a fair contribution. The message is very simple – if you’re hiding your money offshore, we are coming to get you.”

    i guess what happens next will show whether Osborne is a man of his word or all talk and no trousers.
  • Richard1960Richard1960 Posts: 20,336
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    In case you missed it we have a national debt of £1.3 trillion. The Government gets blamed for the rate at which it is increasing and yet the very same people object to all cuts and find new ways to spend yet more money - like you have just done. No wonder we are in a mess.
    Housing has been neglected in this country for the last 50 years by all governments and it will take decades to sort out, even if we did have the money - which we don't

    No i did not miss it i wonder where though the half a billion for ukraine was coming from have you any idea i have not?:confused: If Mr Osbourne was going to open his cheque book for overseas aid why not us he either has cash or has none.?

    Yes housing will take years and years to sort out but government of any colour does not seem to want to get a grip.

    Now if Mrs Thatcher and her sucessors had of allowed the building of new affordable housing from RTB sales now that might have been different.
  • TassiumTassium Posts: 31,639
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    Whatever anyone says, this government do look increasingly corrupt.

    It's all about perception don't forget.

    Not only corrupt but hypocrits as well. Cameron talking of God and morals while all this is going on around him.
  • MartinPMartinP Posts: 31,358
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    from the Independent link



    i guess what happens next will show whether Osborne is a man of his word or all talk and no trousers.

    And from the Guardian link

    "A spokesman for Leadsom insisted there "is not, nor has there been any tax advantage whatsoever" from the arrangements.

    "This is a completely UK company that is eligible for UK tax on all profits. There is no offshore element and no tax avoidance," the spokesman said, while confirming that Leadsom has always been resident in the UK for tax purposes."

    I think you might have rushed to judgement. I like to hear both sides of the story.
  • Richard1960Richard1960 Posts: 20,336
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    MartinP wrote: »
    And from the Guardian link

    "A spokesman for Leadsom insisted there "is not, nor has there been any tax advantage whatsoever" from the arrangements.

    "This is a completely UK company that is eligible for UK tax on all profits. There is no offshore element and no tax avoidance," the spokesman said, while confirming that Leadsom has always been resident in the UK for tax purposes."

    I think you might have rushed to judgement. I like to hear both sides of the story.

    The former Barclays banker, who was appointed to the Treasury by the Chancellor this month, is facing questions after it was disclosed that she had placed her shares in the property company into trusts for the benefit of her children – a move that is commonly used to avoid inheritance tax.

    Bandal – the buy-to-let firm created by the former City high-flyer, 50, and her husband, another ex-banker – also created charges over two of its buy-to-let properties in favour of the offshore branch of an investment bank. The move indicates Ms Leadsom obtained loans from the Jersey-based wealth-management operation, secured against the buy-to-let properties.

    From the independant.
  • gummy mummygummy mummy Posts: 26,600
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    No i did not miss it i wonder where though the half a billion for ukraine was coming from have you any idea i have not?:confused: If Mr Osbpourne was going to open his cheque book for overseas aid why not us.?

    Yes housing will take years and years to sort out but government of any colour does not seem to want to get a grip.

    Now if Mrs Thatcher and her sucessors had of allowed the building of new affordable housing from RTB sales now that might have been different.

    Well Mrs T had the money from the council houses she sold to tenants which would have paid for the building of more council houses, so why didn't she give councils the money to build new houses to replace the ones that where sold.
  • Richard1960Richard1960 Posts: 20,336
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    Well Mrs T had the money from the council houses she sold to tenants which would have paid for the building of more council houses, so why didn't she give councils the money to build new houses to replace the ones that where sold.

    Indeed answer.

    She did not believe in social housing but everything was for profit.
  • DiscombobulateDiscombobulate Posts: 4,242
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    No i did not miss it i wonder where though the half a billion for ukraine was coming from have you any idea i have not?:confused: If Mr Osbourne was going to open his cheque book for overseas aid why not us he either has cash or has none.?

    Yes housing will take years and years to sort out but government of any colour does not seem to want to get a grip.

    Now if Mrs Thatcher and her sucessors had of allowed the building of new affordable housing from RTB sales now that might have been different.


    Well as we don't have enough money to pay for current spending I guess it would come from borrowing much in the same way as America's largess comes from borrowing - what is it a national debt of $17 trillion and rising

    Yes I agree governments of all colours let housing slip - indeed I said so.

    Yes I agree if Mrs Thatcher's Government, and Mr Major's and Mr Blair's and Mr Brown's had allowed the proceeds from the sale of council houses to be used to build new council houses thinks could have been different. But the truth is those parties did not want more council houses and still don't. Its a political decision that both Labour and Conservatives agree on

    Oh and despite all the mud thrown at Thatcher she did build more council houses than Blair or Brown. The figures have been posted on here before
  • MartinPMartinP Posts: 31,358
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    The former Barclays banker, who was appointed to the Treasury by the Chancellor this month, is facing questions after it was disclosed that she had placed her shares in the property company into trusts for the benefit of her children – a move that is commonly used to avoid inheritance tax.

    Bandal – the buy-to-let firm created by the former City high-flyer, 50, and her husband, another ex-banker – also created charges over two of its buy-to-let properties in favour of the offshore branch of an investment bank. The move indicates Ms Leadsom obtained loans from the Jersey-based wealth-management operation, secured against the buy-to-let properties.

    From the independant.

    Your post made my eyes hurt. How exactly would creating this charge avoid tax? And from the link "this appears to have been switched to the London branch of the bank more recently."

    And surely you can't attack her for gifting assets to her children.
  • Richard1960Richard1960 Posts: 20,336
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    Well as we don't have enough money to pay for current spending I guess it would come from borrowing much in the same way as America's largess comes from borrowing - what is it a national debt of $17 trillion and rising

    Yes I agree governments of all colours let housing slip - indeed I said so.

    Yes I agree if Mrs Thatcher's Government, and Mr Major's and Mr Blair's and Mr Brown's had allowed the proceeds from the sale of council houses to be used to build new council houses thinks could have been different. But the truth is those parties did not want more council houses and still don't. Its a political decision that both Labour and Conservatives agree on


    No i would agree no politican wants more council housing why not .................................. They benefit from the system as it currently is.>:(

    Though i note in John Majors defence he built more social housing whilst in power then Tony Blair did in all his years.
  • Richard1960Richard1960 Posts: 20,336
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    MartinP wrote: »
    Your post made my eyes hurt. How exactly would creating this charge avoid tax? And from the link "this appears to have been switched to the London branch of the bank more recently."

    And surely you can't attack her for gifting assets to her children.


    It depnds if it was with the express intention of avoiding tax .
  • Jol44Jol44 Posts: 21,048
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    "The moves are legal ..."

    Case closed.

    So is sleeping with the wife of one's best friend, but only an @*%%**** would do it.

    It's legal, but morally and ethically repugnant.
  • gummy mummygummy mummy Posts: 26,600
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    MartinP wrote: »
    And from the Guardian link

    "A spokesman for Leadsom insisted there "is not, nor has there been any tax advantage whatsoever" from the arrangements.

    "This is a completely UK company that is eligible for UK tax on all profits. There is no offshore element and no tax avoidance," the spokesman said, while confirming that Leadsom has always been resident in the UK for tax purposes."

    I think you might have rushed to judgement. I like to hear both sides of the story.

    You really expect a spokesman for Leadsom to say anything else ?

    and people say I'm naive.


    So now that you have heard both sides of the story which one do you believe ?

    I'd sooner wait and see what happens next.

    BTW I will point out that Leadsom is a writer for the Guardian. In case you didn't know.
    http://www.theguardian.com/profile/andrea-leadsom
  • MartinPMartinP Posts: 31,358
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    [/B]

    It depnds if it was with the express intention of avoiding tax .

    We can never know, but if you had the choice of giving your children £100 or £60 what would you do?

    And can you also answer my earlier question - How exactly would creating the charge you mentioned avoid tax? Fair enough if you don't know, as I don't know either, but you appear to think it's a big deal.
  • CharlotteswebCharlottesweb Posts: 18,680
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    The tax stuff is a red herring here. Yes, she lessened her tax burden, but that should not be the story - the law is specifically set up to not only allow her to do that but guide her to it - it isn't 'loopholes' , as that indicates unintentional. It is designed that way.

    The real story is someone who benefits directly from housing cost increases being in a position to influence the housing market.

    That is a real concern, and with 18% year on year rises and a comparative rise in housing benefit, one that is costing us far more than a bit of tax.
  • MartinPMartinP Posts: 31,358
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    You really expect a spokesman for Leadsom to say anything else ?

    and people say I'm naive.

    I don't expect a spokesman to deliberately lie as it will likely be found out, don't you think? That would be rather foolish and self-defeating.
    So now that you have heard both sides of the story which one do you believe ?

    I prefer "innocent until proven guilty". You appeared to want Osborne to take action on pure speculation.
    I'd sooner wait and see what happens next.

    I have a hunch nothing will as there is no real substance to the story.
    BTW I will point out that Leadsom is a writer for the Guardian. In case you didn't know.
    http://www.theguardian.com/profile/andrea-leadsom

    Are you implying that she may be a tax avoider because she works for a media group that avoids tax? ;-)
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