Benefit bashers who complain about people who have nice things

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  • mushymanrobmushymanrob Posts: 17,992
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    The Wizard wrote: »
    How do you know which people have chosen to be on benefits as a career option as opposed to people stuck in a poverty trap? Unless you specifically know that person's income and outgoings which only they would be able to calculate, then you can go around making assumptions about people.

    Some people like those with kids who find themselves suddenly unemployed cannot afford to take part time or low paid jobs because the cost of putting their kids into childcare outweighs the incoming wage. Nobody is gonna go out to work when by doing so it means they will be financially worse off.

    ive already addressed this...
    chaff wrote: »
    What benefits are you talking about then? Are you talking about people fraudulently claiming sickness benefits?

    yes... scroungers who know how to play the system, i know several, theres 2 in our road alone. no intention of working but expect the state to support them.
  • TardisSteveTardisSteve Posts: 8,077
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    It is easy to say to someone go and get a job, the hard part is finding something, getting the interview and doing well in it, there are are a shortage out there, I k know, im trying to come off benefits and get get into work, as I said I hate being on benefits, the last interview I had was last yesr and my nerves wrre so bad it didn't go very well, needless to say it it didn't go well and I was beating myself up the entire way home

    If someone offered me a job tomorrow I would say great when do I start,
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 22,736
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    but it cannot be right that they can afford luxuries that workers cannot. or maybe us workers are the mugs. maybe ive seen too much locally of mick philpotts exploits (the guy who burnt his kids to death by trying to get a bigger house off the council).

    People can spend their benefits in what they want. If they want to not eat as much, or turn the heating down and save and save for a TV or God forbid a holiday.. good luck to them.

    If someone is disabled and unable to work I do not think that means they should live a sad deprived existence because they are helped by the state.

    Personally I think you are right, it is us workers that are the mugs. We are all too bust begrudging benefit claimants things and fighting to make their lot worse, as opposed to fighting to get our wages and returns better.. and when workers in the public sector do try and fight for a better lot, we crucify them as well. Us private sector workers really are slaves to capitalism... laters:D
  • tim59tim59 Posts: 47,188
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    its all ifs and buts with you isnt it... excuses excuses excuses..

    its true that its wrong to lump everone on benefits in the same boat. i know people at both ends of the spectrum, hard up because they cannot find a job and are struggling, well off because they know how to play the system and have no intention of working.

    but it cannot be right that they can afford luxuries that workers cannot. or maybe us workers are the mugs. maybe ive seen too much locally of mick philpotts exploits (the guy who burnt his kids to death by trying to get a bigger house off the council).

    The truth is he did not work but the women did, so he was not claiming out of work benefits, so claiming in work benefits, so anyone in work claiming any kind of benefit must be living in luxury. Or in other words anyone who claims any form of benefits must be living a life of luxury
  • trevgotrevgo Posts: 28,241
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    It is easy to say to someone go and get a job, the hard part is finding something, getting the interview and doing well in it, there are are a shortage out there, I k know, im trying to come off benefits and get get into work, as I said I hate being on benefits, the last interview I had was last yesr and my nerves wrre so bad it didn't go very well, needless to say it it didn't go well and I was beating myself up the entire way home

    If someone offered me a job tomorrow I would say great when do I start,

    How many jobs do you apply for?
  • The WizardThe Wizard Posts: 11,071
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    its all ifs and buts with you isnt it... excuses excuses excuses..

    its true that its wrong to lump everone on benefits in the same boat. i know people at both ends of the spectrum, hard up because they cannot find a job and are struggling, well off because they know how to play the system and have no intention of working.

    but it cannot be right that they can afford luxuries that workers cannot. or maybe us workers are the mugs. maybe ive seen too much locally of mick philpotts exploits (the guy who burnt his kids to death by trying to get a bigger house off the council).

    Prove to me where these luxuries are paid from and ill happily accept your argument but just because you see someone which has a new tv or goes on holiday, you can't possibly prove who's paid for it and where that money has come from. You just can't. Not unless you have access to their bank accounts. There's nothing to say that someone else has paid for it, it's on loan or whether they have savings which they use to pay for them.
  • BelfastGuy125BelfastGuy125 Posts: 7,515
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    Can I just add, althought this is slightly off the point of the thread, that the TV show benefit street, despite the fact it is being hailed as those of a "benefit bashing persuasion" as being amazing at shining a light on the welfare culture...

    They should be careful being too gleeful. Perversely I actually think the show does a better job at proving us who don't care about the benefits system, right. For example Benefits Street has singlehandedly obliterated the myth that people on benefits are living in the lap of luxury and are lucky people, which is portrayed in the conservative media and party. Do the people on that show look like they live in luxury? Their clothes are tattered and look like tramps. Their houses are empty and run down messes. They themselves arn't exactly blessed with good looks. They spend all their time on the streets. They can't afford food. And even people saying "they spend it all on drink"...well excuse me, I hardly call cheap tins of stella as luxury.
  • chaffchaff Posts: 985
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    ive already addressed this...



    yes... scroungers who know how to play the system, i know several, theres 2 in our road alone. no intention of working but expect the state to support them.

    Ah well. I'm sure everyone agrees the fraudsters ought to be dealt with.

    However:

    Benefit fraud: £1.2 billion
    Tax evasion: £5.1 billion
    Tax avoidance: £4 billion

    Looks like those pesky earners are the biggest fiddlers ;-)
  • TardisSteveTardisSteve Posts: 8,077
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    trevgo wrote: »
    How many jobs do you apply for?

    As many as I can find that I can do
  • The WizardThe Wizard Posts: 11,071
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    ive already addressed this...

    No you haven't. You've just made wild accusations and unfounded assumptions about people's finances which you known nothing about.
    yes... scroungers who know how to play the system, i know several, theres 2 in our road alone. no intention of working but expect the state to support them.
    If you are talking about people who are claiming stuff they are not entitled to then fine but people who legally claim money which is rightfully theirs to claim does not give you the right to label them scroungers. You have no idea why some families don't work. Maybe they have an illness or a physical or a learning disability which isn't immediately obvious to others or maybe they are stuck in a poverty trap and can't afford to take the low wage part time jobs offered to them because it would mean being worse off. Maybe they can't find work or are not qualified enough to do other jobs and can't afford to pay to retrain themselves. This was a problem I had when I was on Jobseekers. I needed to go back to college to get more qualifications to get a better chance of finding a job but in order to do so I'd have to sign off and pay for the course myself. I couldn't afford to. You need an NVQ just to clean toilets these days.

    Yes you may well get some people which don't want to work but they are small minority and I don't think it's immediately obvious just by looking at someone and making your own assumptions about them and their financial status which you know nothing about. It's highly unfair to label someone a Dole dosser or a benefit scrounger when you don't know their personal or financial circumstances.
  • Trsvis_BickleTrsvis_Bickle Posts: 9,202
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    chaff wrote: »
    Ah well. I'm sure everyone agrees the fraudsters ought to be dealt with.

    However:

    Benefit fraud: £1.2 billion
    Tax evasion: £5.1 billion
    Tax avoidance: £4 billion

    Looks like those pesky earners are the biggest fiddlers ;-)

    Tax avoidance is perfectly legal so I've no idea why you're trying to conflate it with benefit fraud which is, by definition, criminal.
  • tim59tim59 Posts: 47,188
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    ive already addressed this...



    yes... scroungers who know how to play the system, i know several, theres 2 in our road alone. no intention of working but expect the state to support them.

    But their is a system in place to stop this, so how are they playing the system. They have to prove that they are doing everything to find work, and will have their money stopped by the DWP if they are not doing everything the DWP tell them to do. The only thing the DWP will not do is punish people for not looking at ZHC jobs, or for not taking a job on ZHC.
  • chaffchaff Posts: 985
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    Tax avoidance is perfectly legal so I've no idea why you're trying to conflate it with benefit fraud which is, by definition, criminal.

    If I wanted to conflate it with a criminal act I would have included it in the figure for tax evasion. As you can see, I listed the figures separately, because evasion is illegal, avoidance is not. However, I would class both evasion and avoidance as 'fiddling the books'.
  • TardisSteveTardisSteve Posts: 8,077
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    tim59 wrote: »
    But their is a system in place to stop this, so how are they playing the system. They have to prove that they are doing everything to find work, and will have their money stopped by the DWP if they are not doing everything the DWP tell them to do. The only thing the DWP will not do is punish people for not looking at ZHC jobs, or for not taking a job on ZHC.

    What is ZHC
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 22,736
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    Tax avoidance is perfectly legal so I've no idea why you're trying to conflate it with benefit fraud which is, by definition, criminal.

    Indeed it is legal and so is claiming benefits. Both cost society billions, yet only one is being tackled and fiddled with. Why are those on benefits being come down on but not tax avoidance?
  • TardisSteveTardisSteve Posts: 8,077
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    Indeed it is legal and so is claiming benefits. Both cost society billions, yet only one is being tackled and fiddled with. Why are those on benefits being come down on but not tax avoidance?

    Because it is easier to pick on benefit claimants
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 22,736
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    Because it is easier to pick on benefit claimants

    Indeed and also a lot less lucrative and helpful in tackling that defecit.
  • The WizardThe Wizard Posts: 11,071
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    Can I just add, althought this is slightly off the point of the thread, that the TV show benefit street, despite the fact it is being hailed as those of a "benefit bashing persuasion" as being amazing at shining a light on the welfare culture...

    They should be careful being too gleeful. Perversely I actually think the show does a better job at proving us who don't care about the benefits system, right. For example Benefits Street has singlehandedly obliterated the myth that people on benefits are living in the lap of luxury and are lucky people, which is portrayed in the conservative media and party. Do the people on that show look like they live in luxury? Their clothes are tattered and look like tramps. Their houses are empty and run down messes. They themselves arn't exactly blessed with good looks. They spend all their time on the streets. They can't afford food. And even people saying "they spend it all on drink"...well excuse me, I hardly call cheap tins of stella as luxury.


    More like a £1 for 2 liters bottle of Lidl's own white cider. I've only watched one episode of this and people who have to shoplift for basic essentials are certainly not raking it in. Mind you if they spent their money on their home and looking after themselves instead of on drugs maybe they wouldn't have to shoplift. Their houses are run down and shabby so obviously no money gets spent in the home. They may have a plasma tv or a games consol but who's to say that they are not on a loan or knocked off or stolen.

    Obviously programmes like this are bound to highlight the very worst extremes of society. A show all about an average normal family on benefits wouldn't be entertaining would it? But it's shows like this which out the rest of people on benefits in a bad light.
  • FrightfulBoarFrightfulBoar Posts: 885
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    Indeed it is legal and so is claiming benefits. Both cost society billions, yet only one is being tackled and fiddled with. Why are those on benefits being come down on but not tax avoidance?

    Take away someone's benefits, they go get a job.

    Take away a super rich person's ability to avoid huge and unfair tax bills, risk losing investment in the country.

    One is a benefit for the country. One is detrimental.

    Which one would you concentrate on?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 22,736
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    Take away someone's benefits, they go get a job.

    Take away a super rich person's ability to avoid huge and unfair tax bills, risk losing investment in the country.

    One is a benefit for the country. One is detrimental.

    Which one would you concentrate on?

    They get a job do they? There are not enough jobs for everyone on benefits. Besides which many people being deemed "fit to work" I would not expect an employer to set on, it would be unfair to the employer.

    Huge and unfair tax bills? I find my tax bill huge and unfair but by damned, they take my taxes before I get chance to sniff my wage slip.

    I am sick of this country being held to ransom by the "super rich"

    Also benefits are not detrimental benefits are there to help the sick and vulnerable because believe it or not we are human beings and not robots. I would say looking after the vulnerable and sick is far from detrimental, in fact I would go as far as to say it provides for a healthy and happy society.
  • TardisSteveTardisSteve Posts: 8,077
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    Take away someone's benefits, they go get a job.

    Do they really, link to your proof
  • TardisSteveTardisSteve Posts: 8,077
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    They get a job do they? There are not enough jobs for everyone on benefits. Besides which many people being deemed "fit to work" I would not expect an employer to set on, it would be unfair to the employer.

    Exactly there are not enough jobs for everyone
  • FrightfulBoarFrightfulBoar Posts: 885
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    They get a job do they? There are not enough jobs for everyone on benefits. Besides which many people being deemed "fit to work" I would not expect an employer to set on, it would be unfair to the employer.

    Huge and unfair tax bills? I find my tax bill huge and unfair but by damned, they take my taxes before I get chance to sniff my wage slip.

    I am sick of this country being held to ransom by the "super rich"

    Also benefits are not detrimental benefits are there to help the sick and vulnerable because believe it or not we are human beings and not robots. I would say looking after the vulnerable and sick is far from detrimental, in fact I would go as far as to say it provides for a healthy and happy society.
    Do they really, link to your proof

    Where do you people think jobs come from? The job tree?

    People create companies, sometimes they fail, sometimes they create jobs.

    Boohoo nobody is giving me a job. Get your own job. Stop expecting to be handheld through everything. Take control of your own destiny!
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 22,736
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    Where do you people think jobs come from? The job tree?

    People create companies, sometimes they fail, sometimes they create jobs.

    Boohoo nobody is giving me a job. Get your own job. Stop expecting to be handheld through everything. Take control of your own destiny!


    I am not suggesting they are treated unfairly, I am suggesting that as much as we need them, they need us.. the little people.

    Yet is Ok for them to be able to stash cash in places to stop them from having to pay into the society they profit from but not the little guy. We are expected to conform.

    I might be going a little bit Marxist here but I am beginning to think the guy had a point.

    I have had a job for the last 18 years. I have never been handed a penny by the state, that does not mean I subscribe to all the BS that is being peddled though.
  • jazzyjackjazzyjack Posts: 1,291
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    What I don't understand is how people can possibly think that people on benefits have a better quality of life or better standard of living than people who work. Just because someone has a Smart TV, an Ipad or a games console does not mean they have a good quality of life. Do people really look at those on 'Benefits Street' and think that spending all day smoking and drinking in a rundown house on a rundown street in Birmingham with no hope of it ever changing is a higher standard of living than they have? They must have very low standards.

    If anything 'Benefits Street' should be opening people's eyes to just how low the standard of living is for those who are trapped on benefits and we should be addressing that, not moaning that we can't afford the same 'luxuries'. I'll take a living in a nice area and having prospects above the so called luxuries they have, thanks. I don't have an Ipad, but I certainly have a better quality of life than many who do. Gadgets are not an indicator of a good life.
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