Children Of Earth is a bit of a paradox of an episode for me, I mean it's brilliant for a starters. No arguments from me there. Well acted, well directed, well written... but I also hate it & utterly reject it, i mean it's been 5 years & I've *never* watched a repeat.
And then it hit me... it's miserable. I mean completely, utterly, relentlessly, miserable.
I mean that's my abiding memory of it, that I came out of the episode feeling thoroughly hopeless, it's actually very similar to how I felt after watching Journey's End (though obviously not as extreme)
Russel T Davies is an amazing writer, but he can be a bit of a sadist sometimes when it comes to his writing, constantly wearing his characters down, torturing them & breaking them with his extreme scenarios, his glass half full view of the human condition & his general EMOness, constantly reminding us how selfish & shit humans can be, not understanding the concept of light and shade.
This is partly why I rate SM slightly ahead of RTD.
saladfingers81, methinks thou dost protest too much!
I appreciated the tonal shift in CoE - TW kind of finally found out what it should have been all along - but that doesn't mean that the writing itself was any great step up. It still relied on the same cartoon villains and convenient ways of taking out worldwide threats. And Ianto's death was worthless.
It was good, it was much improved, but could have been more.
But this was part of what made it even more a triumph. Tonally it could have risked being an all over the place mesa. But instead it seamlessly balanced the more outlandish sci-fi and spy thriller elements with some searing (if nor particularly enlightening) social commentary and worthy political thriller. It could have been a car crash. The fact it wasn't is testament to RTD and his writers and the actors. So it never felt jarring that you had Jack encased in concrete like a budget Han Solo and bomb ticking countdown escapes and 007 contact lenses aide by aide with gritty cabinet room machinations and pure human tragedy like Frobishers story.
And yes it was grim. But why not? It wasn't mindlessly so. And it felt like a development not a desecration of what went before. Of course that's easier for me to say as I cared little for what went before. The final resolution with Jack was jaw dropping stuff. Right until the final moment I was sure 'no! No way will they do this to him' and they did! And it was horrible but so so brilliant. I couldn't believe Jack had done that. And then I thought about it and discussed it at length and I understood why. That's alot better than a resolution where Jack just does exactly what you expect Jack would do and all remains the same and you forget shortly afterwards. It was great drama that shook you! Brilliant!
Children Of Earth is a bit of a paradox of an episode for me, I mean it's brilliant for a starters. No arguments from me there. Well acted, well directed, well written... but I also hate it & utterly reject it, i mean it's been 5 years & I've *never* watched a repeat.
And then it hit me... it's miserable. I mean completely, utterly, relentlessly, miserable.
I mean that's my abiding memory of it, that I came out of the episode feeling thoroughly hopeless, it's actually very similar to how I felt after watching Journey's End (though obviously not as extreme)
Russel T Davies is an amazing writer, but he can be a bit of a sadist sometimes when it comes to his writing, constantly wearing his characters down, torturing them & breaking them with his extreme scenarios, his glass half full view of the human condition & his general EMOness, constantly reminding us how selfish & shit humans can be, not understanding the concept of light and shade.
This is partly why I rate SM slightly ahead of RTD.
While it was grim. Often painfully so I don't agree it was without light and shade. Even among the tragedy of the final episode there was still hope. You had the small moment of triumph for Lois Habiba and the Prime minister being hoist on his own petard. And then Gwen and Rhys. That coda was sad as we said farewell to Jack but Gwen was pregnant and they shared their usual back and forth chatter. They represented a future and hope. And one that might not have happened were it not for Jacks actions. Yes in contrast to Doctor Who this was jarring as in the Whoniverse however bad it gets things tend to get wrapped up quite tidily with little fall out for the main characters. Not so Torchwood. Everything had a price whether it was Jacks grandstanding to the 456 which partly contributed to Iantos death and his final sacrifice. It asked difficult moral questions that can still be argued about now.
I'm surprised so many people dislike COE, always thought it was quite popular.
I certainly enjoyed it, I always find it a bit weird with the story that I actually prefer the first two series but somehow I think this was better written and acted and for me is among the finest work RTD has ever contributed towards the Whoniverse.
I think every episode being an hour long rather than the forty five length does do it a lot of favours. It meant each episode can go along at a steady pace and within each episode I think the tension really cranks up without too much musical interference like a lot of DW Stories, and finales, that RTD wrote. I think the pace is just spot on, especially with the scenes with the 456.
The words I like to use for those scenes is captivating and intriguing. What I like about them is that you're almost waiting for something massively dramatic to happen but it doesn't, it's almost as if there's a permanent implication of some big drama to follow, but it doesn't. Guess that's what's known as keeping you in suspense!
Ianto's death didn't bother me that much, though it was sad to see another original team member go. I often wonder if RTD thought as there were only three left he'd pull a double bluff and kill another one off!
Personally thought there was very little to dislike about it unlike the travesty that was to follow with Miracle Day.......
Children Of Earth is a bit of a paradox of an episode for me, I mean it's brilliant for a starters. No arguments from me there. Well acted, well directed, well written... but I also hate it & utterly reject it, i mean it's been 5 years & I've *never* watched a repeat.
And then it hit me... it's miserable. I mean completely, utterly, relentlessly, miserable.
And then it hit me... it's miserable. I mean completely, utterly, relentlessly, miserable.
I mean that's my abiding memory of it, that I came out of the episode feeling thoroughly hopeless, it's actually very similar to how I felt after watching Journey's End (though obviously not as extreme)
It is a funny world isn't it, the reasons why you dislike COE are the exact reasons why I love it and why for me it raises it above other drama/sci-fi shows, especially where it's fans proclaim them as being dark.
I dont want to sound as I am dismissing your view Steven so the next bit isn't really aimed at your post, just me waffling on...and on.:)
For me I grew bored of hearing time and time again that modern buzz word 'Dark' attached to many of the 'in' US shows over the years, shows that personally I found far from dark and far from adult. In fact sometimes the only really dark thing about them was the lighting:)
So it was a breath of fresh air to actually have a genuinely dark sci-fi show aimed at a wider adult audience beyond an already established fandom.
Yes it starts of fast and breezy but when it takes a turn into very dark waters (very Much an RTD trademark, 'Midnight' is a good comparison for example) it does not let up. The truly remarkable thing about COE is that it is DARK, not in your teen/US sci-fi/online fandom idea of dark but good old fashioned British TV drama dark, that darkness US Tv shows, especially sci-fi would not dare touch. It is almost as if the writers said..US TV dark...yeah right..let the Brits show how it is done...we do dystopia better than anyone.
I remember reading reviews in the US saying they would never do a show as dark as this.
Once the 456 show up the relentless and suppressing air of doom is superbly handled by the writers, actors and director/s.. COE IS the darkest modern sci-fi and I doubt it will be beaten, imo nothing in modern TV sci-fi comes close.
For me it is the most darkest TV since THREADS way back in the 1980's. In fact I will be as bold to say that because it is COE has the Torchwood label it has probably done it a bit of a disservice in the long run.
It is a funny world isn't it, the reasons why you dislike COE are the exact reasons why I love it and why for me it raises it above other drama/sci-fi shows, especially where it's fans proclaim them as being dark.
I dont want to sound as I am dismissing your view Steven so the next bit isn't really aimed at your post, just me waffling on...and on.:)
For me hearing time and time again that modern buzz word 'Dark' attached to many of the 'in' US shows over the years, shows that personally I found far from dark and far from adult. In fact sometimes the only really dark thing about them was the lighting:)
So it was a breath of fresh air to actually have a genuinely dark sci-fi show aimed at a wider adult audience beyond an already established fandom.
Yes it starts of fast and breezy but when it takes a turn into very dark waters (very Much an RTD trademark, 'Midnight' is a good comparison for example) it does not let up. The truly remarkable thing about COE is that it is DARK, not in your teen/US sci-fi/online fandom idea of dark but good old fashioned British TV drama dark, that darkness US Tv shows, especially sci-fi would not dare touch. It is almost as if the writers said..US TV dark...yeah right..let the Brits show how it is done...we do dystopia better than anyone.
I remember reading reviews in the US saying they would never do a show as dark as this.
Once the 456 show up the relentless and suppressing air of doom is superbly handled by the writers, actors and director/s.. COE IS the darkest modern sci-fi and I doubt it will be beaten, imo nothing in modern TV sci-fi comes close.
For me it is the most genuinely darkest TV since THREADS way back in the 1980's. In fact I will be as bold to say that because it is COE has the Torchwood label it has probably done it a bit of a disservice in the long run.
So so true. The word dark gets thrown around alot but usually its a byword for depressing or angsty usually related to relationships or as you say the visuals.
COE goes further than that. Which is why it probably upset some of the fandom because it didn't care about tearing apart everything that had gone before. In fact maybe dark isn't the word. Dark in modern genre TV often equates to little more than a few tears and a sad montage set to music which tugs at the heartstrings and inspires melancholy and 'feels' (despise that term)but its still a cosy kind of sadness. I think the word bleak is more appropriate for COE. Its difficult to watch. Yes it had a glorious soundtrack which aims for a minor key at just the right moment and it does have action and humour but at its centre it is a bleak and awkward tale albeit not without hope. Its not easy watching but nor should it be. Its adult drama.
Someone upthread complained that it wasn't how the show was originally sold to the viewers and changed too much. Why is that a problem? You got two seasons of that show. And then clearly RTD realised they couldn't just keep repeating things and keeping a cosy sense of familiarity. So he changed it. That's what a good writer does.
Complaining that COE shook up the Torchwood dynamic is like complaining about Buffy leaving high school and all the changes Whedon made to the original premise of that show. He didn't play it safe. Hell even something like the Star Wars original trilogy did this. Ask most fans and critics and its Empire that stands out. And that film took apart the cosy space fun dynamic of Episode 4 and made the stakes alot higher and more interesting. And darker.
Hate COE all you like for what it actually is. But don't hate it for what it isn't. If you want to ignore it then you can rewatch the first two seasons and read the fanfics. They aren't going anywhere. But this isn't Scooby Doo.
I also find it bizarre that some people talk about The Powers that Be and act as if they betrayed the fandom. No they didn't. They probably hoped they would grow with the show. Some didn't. And its their loss. It wasn't a personal insult. It was a writer telling new stories.
I don't hate it, per se, but it has two specific issues for me:
1) they killed Ianto, and it was a rubbish death
2) the whole concept of taking kids, keeping them alive and using them for drug production makes me feel sick.
So I've only every watched it the once.
Comments
And then it hit me... it's miserable. I mean completely, utterly, relentlessly, miserable.
I mean that's my abiding memory of it, that I came out of the episode feeling thoroughly hopeless, it's actually very similar to how I felt after watching Journey's End (though obviously not as extreme)
Russel T Davies is an amazing writer, but he can be a bit of a sadist sometimes when it comes to his writing, constantly wearing his characters down, torturing them & breaking them with his extreme scenarios, his glass half full view of the human condition & his general EMOness, constantly reminding us how selfish & shit humans can be, not understanding the concept of light and shade.
This is partly why I rate SM slightly ahead of RTD.
But this was part of what made it even more a triumph. Tonally it could have risked being an all over the place mesa. But instead it seamlessly balanced the more outlandish sci-fi and spy thriller elements with some searing (if nor particularly enlightening) social commentary and worthy political thriller. It could have been a car crash. The fact it wasn't is testament to RTD and his writers and the actors. So it never felt jarring that you had Jack encased in concrete like a budget Han Solo and bomb ticking countdown escapes and 007 contact lenses aide by aide with gritty cabinet room machinations and pure human tragedy like Frobishers story.
And yes it was grim. But why not? It wasn't mindlessly so. And it felt like a development not a desecration of what went before. Of course that's easier for me to say as I cared little for what went before. The final resolution with Jack was jaw dropping stuff. Right until the final moment I was sure 'no! No way will they do this to him' and they did! And it was horrible but so so brilliant. I couldn't believe Jack had done that. And then I thought about it and discussed it at length and I understood why. That's alot better than a resolution where Jack just does exactly what you expect Jack would do and all remains the same and you forget shortly afterwards. It was great drama that shook you! Brilliant!
While it was grim. Often painfully so I don't agree it was without light and shade. Even among the tragedy of the final episode there was still hope. You had the small moment of triumph for Lois Habiba and the Prime minister being hoist on his own petard. And then Gwen and Rhys. That coda was sad as we said farewell to Jack but Gwen was pregnant and they shared their usual back and forth chatter. They represented a future and hope. And one that might not have happened were it not for Jacks actions. Yes in contrast to Doctor Who this was jarring as in the Whoniverse however bad it gets things tend to get wrapped up quite tidily with little fall out for the main characters. Not so Torchwood. Everything had a price whether it was Jacks grandstanding to the 456 which partly contributed to Iantos death and his final sacrifice. It asked difficult moral questions that can still be argued about now.
I certainly enjoyed it, I always find it a bit weird with the story that I actually prefer the first two series but somehow I think this was better written and acted and for me is among the finest work RTD has ever contributed towards the Whoniverse.
I think every episode being an hour long rather than the forty five length does do it a lot of favours. It meant each episode can go along at a steady pace and within each episode I think the tension really cranks up without too much musical interference like a lot of DW Stories, and finales, that RTD wrote. I think the pace is just spot on, especially with the scenes with the 456.
The words I like to use for those scenes is captivating and intriguing. What I like about them is that you're almost waiting for something massively dramatic to happen but it doesn't, it's almost as if there's a permanent implication of some big drama to follow, but it doesn't. Guess that's what's known as keeping you in suspense!
Ianto's death didn't bother me that much, though it was sad to see another original team member go. I often wonder if RTD thought as there were only three left he'd pull a double bluff and kill another one off!
Personally thought there was very little to dislike about it unlike the travesty that was to follow with Miracle Day.......
Yep, that about sums. It up, well put:)
It is a funny world isn't it, the reasons why you dislike COE are the exact reasons why I love it and why for me it raises it above other drama/sci-fi shows, especially where it's fans proclaim them as being dark.
I dont want to sound as I am dismissing your view Steven so the next bit isn't really aimed at your post, just me waffling on...and on.:)
For me I grew bored of hearing time and time again that modern buzz word 'Dark' attached to many of the 'in' US shows over the years, shows that personally I found far from dark and far from adult. In fact sometimes the only really dark thing about them was the lighting:)
So it was a breath of fresh air to actually have a genuinely dark sci-fi show aimed at a wider adult audience beyond an already established fandom.
Yes it starts of fast and breezy but when it takes a turn into very dark waters (very Much an RTD trademark, 'Midnight' is a good comparison for example) it does not let up. The truly remarkable thing about COE is that it is DARK, not in your teen/US sci-fi/online fandom idea of dark but good old fashioned British TV drama dark, that darkness US Tv shows, especially sci-fi would not dare touch. It is almost as if the writers said..US TV dark...yeah right..let the Brits show how it is done...we do dystopia better than anyone.
I remember reading reviews in the US saying they would never do a show as dark as this.
Once the 456 show up the relentless and suppressing air of doom is superbly handled by the writers, actors and director/s.. COE IS the darkest modern sci-fi and I doubt it will be beaten, imo nothing in modern TV sci-fi comes close.
For me it is the most darkest TV since THREADS way back in the 1980's. In fact I will be as bold to say that because it is COE has the Torchwood label it has probably done it a bit of a disservice in the long run.
So so true. The word dark gets thrown around alot but usually its a byword for depressing or angsty usually related to relationships or as you say the visuals.
COE goes further than that. Which is why it probably upset some of the fandom because it didn't care about tearing apart everything that had gone before. In fact maybe dark isn't the word. Dark in modern genre TV often equates to little more than a few tears and a sad montage set to music which tugs at the heartstrings and inspires melancholy and 'feels' (despise that term)but its still a cosy kind of sadness. I think the word bleak is more appropriate for COE. Its difficult to watch. Yes it had a glorious soundtrack which aims for a minor key at just the right moment and it does have action and humour but at its centre it is a bleak and awkward tale albeit not without hope. Its not easy watching but nor should it be. Its adult drama.
Someone upthread complained that it wasn't how the show was originally sold to the viewers and changed too much. Why is that a problem? You got two seasons of that show. And then clearly RTD realised they couldn't just keep repeating things and keeping a cosy sense of familiarity. So he changed it. That's what a good writer does.
Complaining that COE shook up the Torchwood dynamic is like complaining about Buffy leaving high school and all the changes Whedon made to the original premise of that show. He didn't play it safe. Hell even something like the Star Wars original trilogy did this. Ask most fans and critics and its Empire that stands out. And that film took apart the cosy space fun dynamic of Episode 4 and made the stakes alot higher and more interesting. And darker.
Hate COE all you like for what it actually is. But don't hate it for what it isn't. If you want to ignore it then you can rewatch the first two seasons and read the fanfics. They aren't going anywhere. But this isn't Scooby Doo.
I also find it bizarre that some people talk about The Powers that Be and act as if they betrayed the fandom. No they didn't. They probably hoped they would grow with the show. Some didn't. And its their loss. It wasn't a personal insult. It was a writer telling new stories.
1) they killed Ianto, and it was a rubbish death
2) the whole concept of taking kids, keeping them alive and using them for drug production makes me feel sick.
So I've only every watched it the once.