Landlord refusing to 'earth' electrics.

Mel94Mel94 Posts: 6,568
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Hello DS users. :)

Ok, so I'm living with my mum in a privately rented house through estate agents and last year, we had problems where we found the gas and electric to be unsafe for many reasons. The boiler had to be replaced and fitted with a new (and accessible) flue and an RCD board had to be fitted as there previously wasn't one. (The landlord wasn't very pleased with being caught out with all of this and initially refused to do it.)

However, there still isn't any earthing on any electrics in the house or on the gas meter. We have been told that there's also a 'live' and exposed wire running down from the immersion heater tank into the kitchen underneath it to the boiler. Now, the estate agents have told us before that there isn't any 'safety standard' for electrics that have to be enforce like with gas because certificates aren't required. All the landlord has done to address the earthing problem is to replace the light fittings with plastic single bulbs and left it like that, the house also needs rewiring.

The landlord is unreasonable, he's a self employed 'gas fitter' and he faked our service certificate for the old boiler, passing it even though he hadn't been near it when he claimed to have serviced it and the flue was boxed in and inaccessible. We had a gas leak as soon as we moved in 2 years ago, but don't know whether that was connected to the neglect by the landlord (he certainly wasn't bothered.)

So my question is, is there any way to enforce this as a (potential?) safety issue, I don't know anything about electrics, but the earthing came up on the inspection report as an important aspect to be fixed and it hasn't been done.. We have a shower fitted (by the landlord who isn't a trained electrician) and that hasn't been earthed and in the manual, it says 'do not use under any circumstances without earthing.' If this is an urgent matter that needs immediate attention, how do you recommend doing so? We can't afford to take him to court and Health and Safety have said that they can't help unless there has been a fatality (which luckily there hasn't!)

Any help will be appreciated, thank you. :)^_^
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Comments

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 927
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    That's pretty bloody lousy op.

    Presumably you have a contract covering this kind of thing? Can't the estate agent mediate this?
  • gds1972gds1972 Posts: 6,613
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  • CroctacusCroctacus Posts: 18,180
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    You could always be a bit sly and get your own gas safe engineer to do a service and check the appliances.
  • CABINETCABINET Posts: 1,787
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    When having major work done to our kitchen a few years ago we found that we weren't earthed either :o:o:o.

    It turned out that the electricity supplier responsible for our infrastructure (not the company that supplied our electricity) had to do the work for free.

    The problem for us was that, because it is free, they aren't really in much of a hurry to do it (they were supremely disinterested in any element of "danger"). Fortunately the people working on our kitchen were prepared to carry on working regardless.

    IIRC they turned up to do it after a month or so.

    If this is still the situation it won't actually cost your landlord anything so he/she might be prepared to sort it out.
  • varialectiovarialectio Posts: 2,377
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    If it's that unsafe and he won't do anything about it, I'd be looking for somewhere else to live. From what you say the most he would do would be another "bodge" job.
  • John_PatrickJohn_Patrick Posts: 924
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    Mel94 wrote: »

    The landlord is unreasonable, he's a self employed 'gas fitter' and he faked our service certificate for the old boiler, passing it even though he hadn't been near it when he claimed to have serviced it and the flue was boxed in and inaccessible. We had a gas leak as soon as we moved in 2 years ago, but don't know whether that was connected to the neglect by the landlord (he certainly wasn't bothered.)

    Im pretty sure if the right people were told and you have proof, that could get him time with Bubba..... or a quite a large fine.....
  • MaxatoriaMaxatoria Posts: 17,980
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    Does the earth cable from the fuseboard go to either where the electricity companies fuse is or to a pole in the ground? if you dont have either then its seriously dodgy, perhaps some photo's of the board and if you feel brave one without the cover on it
  • LakieLadyLakieLady Posts: 19,707
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    Contact the environmental health department of your local council. They are responsible for matters relating to safety and disrepair in rented properties.

    However, it is not uncommon for landlords to opt to terminate a tenancy when forced to carry out repairs, so bear that in mind.
  • RobinOfLoxleyRobinOfLoxley Posts: 27,040
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    i'd be surprised if you are not 'earthed' seeing as you have a new consumer unit.

    The main earth will be out to the street and you may not even be aware of it (it's through the Neutral to the street). Earthing rods are a thing of the past unless you live in the country.

    There should also be a green/yellow wire to the water and gas pipes.

    Don't worry about the gas meter earth, right on the supply to the meter. We haven't had one for 40 years.
    Our plumber always writes 'Not to current standards' on our gas service every year.
  • hardeephardeep Posts: 2,330
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    i'd be surprised if you are not 'earthed' seeing as you have a new consumer unit.

    The main earth will be out to the street and you may not even be aware of it (it's through the Neutral to the street). Earthing rods are a thing of the past unless you live in the country.

    There should also be a green/yellow wire to the water and gas pipes.

    Don't worry about the gas meter earth, right on the supply to the meter. We haven't had one for 40 years.
    Our plumber always writes 'Not to current standards' on our gas service every year.

    Trust me it's quite possible to have new unit and not have a proper earth - it happened to me last year:)

    As part of a refurbishment I decided to get an old consumer unit replaced with a modern MCB version. The electrician fitted it no problem and whilst starting the process of checking realised the house wasn't properly earthed. (He did apologise that during the intial check he had seen green/yellow wiring linked to the water pipes and assumed it was.) It was basically an earthing rod in the ground below the pantry. (Knowing I was a physics teacher he even showed me the reading on the ohm meter - 7 or 8 from memory. Not great!!) The house is a 1930s build so I imagine that most of the street is in a similar situation:o

    Anyway, he told me that before he certify the work I had to get it fixed by the local network operator warning it could several weeks. Fortunately because I rang on a Friday they said as long as there were no emergency jobs on Saturday they'd send one of their weekend standby. So it was fixed the very next morning:D
    (Watching them work it was actually quite a simple job to do BUT of course no one should do it themselves. )
  • Nigel GoodwinNigel Goodwin Posts: 58,270
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    hardeep wrote: »
    It was basically an earthing rod in the ground below the pantry. (Knowing I was a physics teacher he even showed me the reading on the ohm meter - 7 or 8 from memory. Not great!!)

    Presumably he was simply measuring from your earth wiring to the incoming neutral?, so the reading would be from your earth wiring, through the ground, and back to the sub-station - so it's a bit 'iffy' where the 'problem' might lie, or even 'if' it is a problem.

    Presumably all the electricity board guy did was connect a wire from your earth wiring to the incoming neutral, known as a PME earth.

    Incidentally, as far as earth rods are (or were) concerned if the ground where the rod is inserted dries out then the earth connection gets poorer - for temporary earths you sank long copper rods and soaked the ground with salt water :D
  • hardeephardeep Posts: 2,330
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    Presumably he was simply measuring from your earth wiring to the incoming neutral?, so the reading would be from your earth wiring, through the ground, and back to the sub-station - so it's a bit 'iffy' where the 'problem' might lie, or even 'if' it is a problem.

    Presumably all the electricity board guy did was connect a wire from your earth wiring to the incoming neutral, known as a PME earth.

    Yep pretty much as you state.
    Incidentally, as far as earth rods are (or were) concerned if the ground where the rod is inserted dries out then the earth connection gets poorer - for temporary earths you sank long copper rods and soaked the ground with salt water :D
    The earthing rod was actually buried/surrounded by some concrete, (possibly to ensure it stayed fixed in place?) I'm guessing that the rod went deeper into the ground than the depth of the concrete.
  • Nigel GoodwinNigel Goodwin Posts: 58,270
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    hardeep wrote: »
    Yep pretty much as you state.

    The earthing rod was actually buried/surrounded by some concrete, (possibly to ensure it stayed fixed in place?) I'm guessing that the rod went deeper into the ground than the depth of the concrete.

    Standard rods were usually 3 feet long (as I recall?).

    I also have an earth rod, and the electricity board 'condemned' it, claiming the wire to it was too thin - I couldn't change the wire, as I'd concreted over where the rod was :D

    The other option was to pay for a PME earth, which I agreed to do - I also had to provide earth bonding to the incoming gas and water supplies - I don't know if they ever did the PME earth or not (but I wasn't charged for it), but they passed everything on the second visit.

    I also had to supply thicker meter tails (it was to do with having storage heaters connected up) - despite the fact the ones I'd fitted were the exact same size as the incoming electricity supply, and that the thicker ones would fit the fuse box.

    I seriously suspect that they fail all inspections the first time (because it's free), in order to charge you for a repeat visit :D
  • jioscarjioscar Posts: 1,438
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    He has to by law and all electrics and gas appliances must be checked once a year and signed off
  • PuckyPucky Posts: 4,498
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    Mel94 wrote: »
    The landlord is unreasonable, he's a self employed 'gas fitter' and he faked our service certificate for the old boiler, passing it even though he hadn't been near it when he claimed to have serviced it and the flue was boxed in and inaccessible. We had a gas leak as soon as we moved in 2 years ago, but don't know whether that was connected to the neglect by the landlord (he certainly wasn't bothered.)

    Look him up on the Gas Safe register. If he's not registered then he's being a bit naughty, especially if he's not properly filling in CP12 certificates, or not doing the checks properly.
    Our plumber always writes 'Not to current standards' on our gas service every year.
    They have to, although they probably won't do anything about it! Our engineers are always marking flues and meters NTCS, but it's not our policy to change them. It's up to the gas supplier to sort out the meter.
  • Turnbull2000Turnbull2000 Posts: 7,588
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    The only realistic way to enforce these works would be to report him to your local authority, as the property may be considered hazardous. However, this will likely result in your swift eviction. Not resorting the council and putting more pressure on him yourself will also likely result in eviction.

    My advice is to move.
  • Mel94Mel94 Posts: 6,568
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    Thanks for the replies everyone. :) I'll reply to your responses here but I won't multi quote as it'd result in a huge reply post of mine!

    Big.Al - Yeah, it's not great. :( We do have a contract, signed by both the estate agents representing him and him and his wife, but the estate agents have made it clear to us that while he's the one paying them, they'll support him. Most aspects of the landlord side has been broken, yet they're still insistent on the rent, keeping the house spotless for 12 week inspections and maintaining the gardens without help.

    gds1972 - Thank you, I'll take a look. :)

    Croctacus - We did have a gas engineer come to service the boiler recently after all the trouble last year and after he knew about the situation, he took a quick look at the immersion tank, the gas meter and electrics board and said there's still no earthing on any of it and he pointed out the live/exposed wire coming down from the immersion to the kitchen for the boiler.

    CABINET - The problem is that I think it was mainly him and his mates who did the house up cheap and quickly when he bought it. We thought he'd have been qualified for electrics too since he was a gas fitter, but we found out that wasn't the case so he pretty much did it all off his own back on the cheap to cut corners.

    varialectio - Yep, we're coming towards the end of the contract in a few months so we're looking for places that will accept pets and housing benefit, it's just a case of hoping we find one in time and not forced to renew the contract (and he'll only allow 12 months, no less.)

    John_Patrick - We reported him to Gas Safe who supposedly deal with the legal side of keeping gas engineers in line and they said they'd look into him but nothing seems to have came off it.

    Maxatoria - Earth cable, can you tell us a bit more about what to look for with it please? :)

    LakieLady - We did contact them last year, but the pompous man they sent over seemed to be under the impression that unsafe houses are fine as long as you know not to touch and keep any kids away from it. (Ridiculous, right?)

    RobinOfLoxley - Hmm, there is a green/yellow wire connecting to both the gas meter and the water pipes but the electrician who fit the RCD board in last year said he wasn't being paid to fix the earthing problem and only said he'd replace the metal light fittings with plastic. On a Gas safety record we had done recently, it says under defects "No earth bonding [we think it says bonding, writing is terrible] before first 'T' fitting at meter"

    hardeep Ah, so it's still a problem even with the green/yellow wire? Lovely :D

    jioscar You'd think so but we were told that because there apparently isn't a requirement for an electric safety certificate, the estate agents told us that they're recommended to get electrics checked every 10 years or whenever they take on a new house but this wasn't done apparently (yet they still signed the contract saying everything was safe?)

    Pucky - He's on there and has been reported for his dodgy work/faking the certificate but it doesn't seem like any action has been taken against him.

    Turnbull2000 - Local authority here seems to think it's perfectly fine to live in dangerous houses as long as you keep kids away from the hazards and have the faults disconnected. They deemed our living situation last year perfectly safe, which was living with no gas, all downstairs (and top landing) lights disconnected because of a spark that was found in a light switch and relying on filling up kettles continuously without an RCD board and using electric heaters and lamps on various extension leads. Yet when we asked if they'd put up with the situation in their house, they soon went quiet!
  • Mel94Mel94 Posts: 6,568
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    Also, the problems all started with the kitchen light switch that kept sparking sparking blue whenever it was used (we had to use it with a rubber handle) and that led to the downstairs lights being disconnected for safety, yet it's still sparking now and the plug socket next to it. The guy initially thought that the landlord must have drilled into the wire when he fitted cupboards above the light switch, but the engineer who fitted the RCD shrugged and said sparking is normal? Also, are we right to not trust the shower without any earthing?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 5,383
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    Sounds to me (an electrician) as though your only deficiency is no earth in the LIGHTING circuit - not NO EARTH AT ALL. Sticking in a new RCD consumer unit with no earth at all would have lead to no end of problems.

    No earth in lighting circuit is very common in houses pre-1960's, and NOT currently a fail on any inspection report - just an advisory with the note that only plastic (or type 2 double insulate) fittings can be used - so none that require an earth for the metal parts.

    There is no electrical equivalent to the Gas Safety certificate, for rented properties, BUT the landlord must ensure that installation is SAFE, at the risk of you suing his arse off if something should happen.

    Light switches can spark as they make/break the circuit, but it's a cheap 2 minute job to swap it if it's considered a problem- so why not just do that? Sockets can spark if you don't turn them off before plugging/unplugging things - these are "facts of life" and nothing to worry about IMO.

    If the consumer unit ("fuse box") has been equipped with one or more RCDs then the shower is perfectly safe to use PROVIDED an earth is in place. Can we have a pic of your consumer unit please, so we can see the config of the breakers.
  • Mel94Mel94 Posts: 6,568
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    LCDMAN wrote: »
    Sounds to me (an electrician) as though your only deficiency is no earth in the LIGHTING circuit - not NO EARTH AT ALL. Sticking in a new RCD consumer unit with no earth at all would have lead to no end of problems.

    No earth in lighting circuit is very common in houses pre-1960's, and NOT currently a fail on any inspection report - just an advisory with the note that only plastic (or type 2 double insulate) fittings can be used - so none that require an earth for the metal parts.

    There is no electrical equivalent to the Gas Safety certificate, for rented properties, BUT the landlord must ensure that installation is SAFE, at the risk of you suing his arse off if something should happen.

    Light switches can spark as they make/break the circuit, but it's a cheap 2 minute job to swap it if it's considered a problem- so why not just do that? Sockets can spark if you don't turn them off before plugging/unplugging things - these are "facts of life" and nothing to worry about IMO.

    If the consumer unit ("fuse box") has been equipped with one or more RCDs then the shower is perfectly safe to use PROVIDED an earth is in place. Can we have a pic of your consumer unit please, so we can see the config of the breakers.

    Hi, thank you for your reply. :)

    On the electric report, there's a tick/cross section for "Bathroom/shower room supplementary bonding" and "hot & cold pipes", "shower circuit", "radiator pipes" and "lighting circuit" all have crosses next to them - which hasn't been rectified other than fitting the plastic lights in. Also, it says "approximate age of installation - 45 years" with only additions made were the landlord fitting the shower, bathroom and kitchen himself rather than employing a certified electrician to do it for him.

    Here's the pictures. Using Twitter because I don't know if DS allows you to upload images from PC through another way. :blush:

    http://twitpic.com/e0zprw
    http://twitpic.com/e0zpsj
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 5,383
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    Thanks for the pics. Looks fine to me. "Supplementary bonding" of pipes in bathrooms pre-dates the use of RCDs, it's no longer required if the circuits are RCD protected - as yours indeed are - thanks to the nice new consumer unit.

    If i had to be picky then I'd have split the upstairs & downstairs sockets & lights breakers on different RCDs, to avoid losing everything, lights wise, if one of them trips for any reason - a real sparky would do this automatically ("design and install circuits so as to minimise the effects of nuisance tripping") so I'd guess whoever put it in wasn't a sparky just from that. Nevertheless if you don't have stuff tripping all the time - RCDs are MUCH more sensitive than fuses used to be - then it can't be unsafe or dangerous.

    What was this supposed exposed "live wire" between immersion and boiler - can we see that too pls?
  • njpnjp Posts: 27,583
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    Not relevant to the earthing issue, but what wattage is your shower?

    A 32A mcb looks a bit marginal to me...
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 5,383
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    njp wrote: »
    Not relevant to the earthing issue, but what wattage is your shower?

    A 32A mcb looks a bit marginal to me...

    Be right for 7.5kW. If it ain't tripping all the time then it won't be undersize, plus it would trip with a lot less overcurrent for a lot shorter period than a fuse would.
  • Mel94Mel94 Posts: 6,568
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    http://twitpic.com/e0zsnl
    http://twitpic.com/e0zsie
    http://twitpic.com/e0zshl

    The shower is 8.5kW. The RCD does trip when the light bulbs go, which is about every 4 weeks (for some reason :confused:)
  • RobinOfLoxleyRobinOfLoxley Posts: 27,040
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    Looks fine to me. Fashions and practices change. CU is correctly labelled and neat stick-on labels..

    A photo of the surrounding inches (18") might be useful and of the meter and surroundings.

    Sockets on B16 radials imply an older property (kitchen seem to be on a ring main).
    But that's fine.

    Cables should be white PVC. If they are black rubber, it's definitely time for a re-wire. Cables in last 10 years are grey PVC. (Flat Twin and Earth)

    Just seen your latest post.
    The Immersion/Water Heater is definitely amateur wired.

    Even a keen DIYer wouldn't leave brown and blue wires exposed.

    It's just not done. And have the terminals been done up correctly?

    A cable should have two layers of insulation to people in the house.
    ie blue/brown + an outer layer. Just in case of casual contact with the copper inside and mice nibbling or whatever.

    And strain relief/clamping should be provided. In case of accidental pulling.
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