Sure, but surely they could cope as countries in their own right no? After all South Sudan was just a region of that particular country which broke away and became it's own country just a year or so ago, and as I say, everyone would be happy with who was running the place. I know it's never going to happen it's just using the logic being used to justify a Yes vote
The logic being used to justify a 'yes' vote is the dissolving of the Act of Union 1707 which saw Scotland - a distinct country with its own parliament - merge with the parliament which had previously sat for England in Westminster. If you can point out where, say, the North of England had its own parliament and which Act merged it with Westminster, then you may have a point. Otherwise...
Sure, but surely they could cope as countries in their own right no? After all South Sudan was just a region of that particular country which broke away and became it's own country just a year or so ago, and as I say, everyone would be happy with who was running the place. I know it's never going to happen it's just using the logic being used to justify a Yes vote
It's nowhere near the same logic, it is up to the people of that area, any area, to put into power people who will represent their point of view
Scotland done that
The logic being used to justify a yes vote is in the many posts and the many threads that you seem unwilling to read through
Sure, but surely they could cope as countries in their own right no? After all South Sudan was just a region of that particular country which broke away and became it's own country just a year or so ago, and as I say, everyone would be happy with who was running the place. I know it's never going to happen it's just using the logic being used to justify a Yes vote
You can't compare South Sudan to Scotland or regions of England...different issues, laws, history, politics...blah blah.
It may have been logic for South Sudan's situation, but that logic is not the same for Scotland & Independence, totally different circumstances no comparison, not one iota....;)
It's nowhere near the same logic, it is up to the people of that area, any area, to put into power people who will represent their point of view
Scotland done that
The logic being used to justify a yes vote is in the many posts and the many threads that you seem unwilling to read through
The logic I'm talking about is the whole "we don't like the Tories", the majority of the people in these certain regions I'm sure hate the Tories as much as we do up here, but surely by breaking away or at least creating their own local government, the people there would never have to suffer the pain of being run by those evil Tory bogeymen ever again, no?
The logic I'm talking about is the whole "we don't like the Tories", the majority of the people in these certain regions I'm sure hate the Tories as much as we do up here, but surely by breaking away or at least creating their own local government, the people there would never have to suffer the pain of being run by those evil Tory bogeymen ever again, no?
Then what they have to do is set up and win support for a party which supports and will fight for Northern English devolution.
The logic I'm talking about is the whole "we don't like the Tories", the majority of the people in these certain regions I'm sure hate the Tories as much as we do up here, but surely by breaking away or at least creating their own local government, the people there would never have to suffer the pain of being run by those evil Tory bogeymen ever again, no?
Personally I don't agree with the Tory policies, they don't work for Scotland, and my vote is on what is best for Scotland and neither of the main parties have anything to offer Scotland in the future.
Let's say if it was labour, tory or the libdems were the main political party's in the Scottish government but they were offering Independence for Scotland and got a mandate from Westminster for a referendum vote on Independence.
If their vision was right, or it was they offering the same as SNP, I'd still be voting yes, so this Independent vote is nothing to do with the political party in power in the Scottish parliament...
The logic I'm talking about is the whole "we don't like the Tories", the majority of the people in these certain regions I'm sure hate the Tories as much as we do up here, but surely by breaking away or at least creating their own local government, the people there would never have to suffer the pain of being run by those evil Tory bogeymen ever again, no?
Which we have absolutely no place to decide
We decide on Scotland
it's not a case of "we don't like the Tories" as much as it's a case of the Tories are an irrelevance in Scotland
You started with your opinion that we are all the same, through history, media and lifestyle yet we are clearly drastically different at the level where it counts
As for the scaremongering, we've gone from "going it alone" and being the outcast of the western world to now not even currently existing in the first place
Then what they have to do is set up and win support for a party which supports and will fight for Northern English devolution.
But they haven't! And let's face it, in all likelihood, the Tories will be turfed out in 2 years time, once the SNP have lost their referendum which'll make that argument even weaker than it already is,
But they haven't! And let's face it, in all likelihood, the Tories will be turfed out in 2 years time, once the SNP have lost their referendum which'll make that argument even weaker than it already is,
They haven't; Scotland has. The argument that it's all about the Tories, however, is another one you've just added in and then argued against - it's not about the Tories so much as about Scotland taking governmental responsibility for its own policies. If you are so confident that the SNP will lose, however, why are you so intent on spouting bile and throwing about false accusations?
Personally I don't agree with the Tory policies, they don't work for Scotland, and my vote is on what is best for Scotland and neither of the main parties have anything to offer Scotland in the future.
Let's say if it was labour, tory or the libdems were the main political party's in the Scottish government but they were offering Independence for Scotland and got a mandate from Westminster for a referendum vote on Independence.
If their vision was right, or it was they offering the same as SNP, I'd still be voting yes, so this Independent vote is nothing to do with the political party in power in the Scottish parliament...
Totally agree
It's been said a few times but a yes vote does not then turn Scotland into a one party state, infact in my opinion a yes vote would leave the SNP at a stage where they have achieved their reason for existing, it would surely mean the evolution of them as a party and quite possibly the breakup of the organisation into different factions
It would however mean that Scottish Labour and even the Scottish Tories could focus on Scottish matters without pressure or ties to Westminster
Exactly, so not Scotland's problem....why would I worry about a region in England when it is they that had the vote for their constituent.....
I'm not saying we should worry about it, I just personally find it bizarre why we should secede just because we don't like the party in power in government, when there's no other place in the world, let alone Britain, that uses that sort of reasoning for seceding from a state
I'm not saying we should worry about it, I just personally find it bizarre why we should secede just because we don't like the party in power in government, when there's no other place in the world, let alone Britain, that uses that sort of reasoning for seceding from a state
Because that is not the reason for secession. You just seem to think it is.
I'm not saying we should worry about it, I just personally find it bizarre why we should secede just because we don't like the party in power in government, when there's no other place in the world, let alone Britain, that uses that sort of reasoning for seceding from a state
It's nothing to do with not liking any political party or seceding. It's what is best for Scotland as a Country, her people etc.
The Independence card is on the table and I'm taking it for many reasons, each person to their own reason as that card will never, ever be put on that table again if we remain the status quo. Things will only get worse..
I think there are a number of compelling arguments for staying in the UK. I don't dispute that Scotland could 'stand on her own two feet' *cringe*, but I haven't seen or heard anything from any politician, business leader or academic to convince me that Scots would be better off economically, socially or culturally. I look forward to reading the SNP's White Paper later this year.
I think there are a number of compelling arguments for staying in the UK. I don't dispute that Scotland could 'stand on her own two feet' *cringe*, but I haven't seen or heard anything from any politician, business leader or academic to convince me that Scots would be better off economically, socially or culturally. I look forward to reading the SNP's White Paper later this year.
That's because we're not getting the air time or media press coverage, only the views of the opposition and how they mock the Independence debate. Yet they say we're better together....
They haven't; Scotland has. The argument that it's all about the Tories, however, is another one you've just added in and then argued against - it's not about the Tories so much as about Scotland taking governmental responsibility for its own policies. If you are so confident that the SNP will lose, however, why are you so intent on spouting bile and throwing about false accusations?
If the SNP made a unarguable compellingly good case for independence and won as a result of that, then fair enough I would accept that they did well and deserved to win. However they're clearly struggling to do so, so it's a case of accuse those who oppose us of being anti-Scottish and try and portray the whole thing as poor wee Scotland being weighed down by big bad Tory England in the hope it'll stir up what is essentially the hate vote (Joan McAlpine anyone) Let's face it, the SNP's majority was more a case of disenchantment with the mainstream parties rather than about separation, you mustered a mere 5,000 at your Independence Rally in Edinburgh last September, compared to the 1 million souls who turned out in Catalonia a year or so ago, you've got to do better than that!!
If the SNP made a unarguable compellingly good case for independence and won as a result of that, then fair enough I would accept that they did well and deserved to win. However they're clearly struggling to do so, so it's a case of accuse those who oppose us of being anti-Scottish and try and portray the whole thing as poor wee Scotland being weighed down by big bad England in the hope it'll stir up what is essentially the hate vote (Joan McAlpine anyone) Let's face it, the SNP's majority was more a case of disenchantment with the mainstream parties rather than about separation, you mustered a mere 5,000 at your Independence Rally in Edinburgh last September, compared to the 1 million souls who turned out in Catalonia a year or so ago, you've got to do better than that!!
Except that hasn't happened, has it? You're just making more stuff up to bolster your own anti-SNP stance. No one has accused you of being anti-Scottish, but it seems to suit your agenda to pretend that's the case. Ultimately, the case for independence hinges on whether or not your believe an internal Scottish parliament in full charge of Scottish affairs is better than Westminster rule and Scottish parties which have divided interests. For what it's worth, I've never voted SNP myself, but I do believe in independence - the SNP are a means to an end. Your claim that their campaign relies on an image of 'poor wee Scotland' suggests how little you actually know about it. From what I've seen, the case has been built on an image of Scotland's potential strength in economic, cultural and political terms. Might I suggest that the notion of 'poor wee Scotland' results from a not particularly small chip on your own shoulder?
It's also evident that you've made up your mind entirely on the issue - hence the vitriolic attacks and false accusations which seem to be your stock in trade.
If the SNP made a unarguable compellingly good case for independence and won as a result of that, then fair enough I would accept that they did well and deserved to win. However they're clearly struggling to do so,
So what is an arguable compelling good case for Independence in your mind? Can I ask the same question for to remain the Status quo that is arguably compelling without the emotion?
Except that hasn't happened, has it? You're just making more stuff up to bolster your own anti-SNP stance. No one has accused you of being anti-Scottish, but it seems to suit your agenda to pretend that's the case. Ultimately, the case for independence hinges on whether or not your believe an internal Scottish parliament in full charge of Scottish affairs is better than Westminster rule and Scottish parties which have divided interests. For what it's worth, I've never voted SNP myself, but I do believe in independence - the SNP are a means to an end.
It's also evident that you've made up your mind entirely on the issue - hence the vitriolic attacks and false accusations which seem to be your stock in trade.
I'm not making it up, it's true. Didn't you hear Joan McAlpine's comments in a newspaper that the Union as it stands was her idea of "a talented young woman being the victim of domestic abuse by a domineering husband" Sorry but if that's not an attempt to whip up ill-feeling then I don't know what is. I myself haven't personally been told to my face that I'm anti-Scottish, but listening to the debate it would seem that's what Nats actually think of all those who are against their views, hence why I'm not awfully fond of the idea of giving them what they want
I'm not making it up, it's true. Didn't you hear Joan McAlpine's comments in a newspaper that the Union as it stands was her idea of "a talented young woman being the victim of domestic abuse by a domineering husband" Sorry but if that's not an attempt to whip up ill-feeling then I don't know what is. I myself haven't personally been told to my face that I'm anti-Scottish, but listening to the debate it would seem that's what Nats actually think of all those who are against their views, hence why I'm not awfully fond of the idea of giving them what they want
How on earth does her opinion equate to you (and others, presumably) being called 'anti-Scottish'? It's not my favoured analogy, but the 'married couple' is quite commonly invoked by both sides. In McAlpine's case, it was used to try and win support, which one might expect her to do, just as the Unionists try and win support for the UK with their 'better together' rhetoric. Does that constitute an attempt to whip up anti-SNP feeling? It seems to have worked in your case. At any rate, I still fail to see how her analogy calls anyone anti-Scottish. The only anti-Scottish attitudes I've seen have been from those who want to evict Scotland (and yes, the papers have printed polls which suggest that, if it were up to England, they'd kick us out rather than let us jump).
So what is an arguable compelling good case for Independence in your mind? Can I ask the same question for to remain the Status quo that is arguably compelling without the emotion?
Who says they're struggling, the media hype?
If it was proven that it would transform Scotland into a country that was the envy of the world then yes that would be a good case, but recently some stats recently showed that we'd be £1 worse off, which is essentially no difference at all, so why vote for something which is going to make no difference?
If it was proven that it would transform Scotland into a country that was the envy of the world then yes that would be a good case, but recently some stats recently showed that we'd be £1 worse off, which is essentially no difference at all, so why vote for something which is going to make no difference?
That is a short-term, financial difference only. What about the difference in social policy, the prioritisation of Scotland's interests rather than the UK's and long-term finances?
How on earth does her opinion equate to you (and others, presumably) being called 'anti-Scottish'? It's not my favoured analogy, but the 'married couple' is quite commonly invoked by both sides. In McAlpine's case, it was used to try and win support, which one might expect her to do, just as the Unionists try and win support for the UK with their 'better together' rhetoric. Does that constitute an attempt to whip up anti-SNP feeling? It seems to have worked in your case. At any rate, I still fail to see how her analogy calls anyone anti-Scottish. The only anti-Scottish attitudes I've seen have been from those who want to evict Scotland (and yes, the papers have printed polls which suggest that, if it were up to England, they'd kick us out rather than let us jump).
She has called the SNP's political opponents that in the past. Also If they were serious about creating this friendly, welcoming country where "we're a' Jock Tamson's bairns" then they'd condemn her comments as being totally unrepresentative of the party and their vision for what Scotland should be like, rather than try to defend her.
Comments
The logic being used to justify a 'yes' vote is the dissolving of the Act of Union 1707 which saw Scotland - a distinct country with its own parliament - merge with the parliament which had previously sat for England in Westminster. If you can point out where, say, the North of England had its own parliament and which Act merged it with Westminster, then you may have a point. Otherwise...
It's nowhere near the same logic, it is up to the people of that area, any area, to put into power people who will represent their point of view
Scotland done that
The logic being used to justify a yes vote is in the many posts and the many threads that you seem unwilling to read through
You can't compare South Sudan to Scotland or regions of England...different issues, laws, history, politics...blah blah.
It may have been logic for South Sudan's situation, but that logic is not the same for Scotland & Independence, totally different circumstances no comparison, not one iota....;)
The logic I'm talking about is the whole "we don't like the Tories", the majority of the people in these certain regions I'm sure hate the Tories as much as we do up here, but surely by breaking away or at least creating their own local government, the people there would never have to suffer the pain of being run by those evil Tory bogeymen ever again, no?
Then what they have to do is set up and win support for a party which supports and will fight for Northern English devolution.
Personally I don't agree with the Tory policies, they don't work for Scotland, and my vote is on what is best for Scotland and neither of the main parties have anything to offer Scotland in the future.
Let's say if it was labour, tory or the libdems were the main political party's in the Scottish government but they were offering Independence for Scotland and got a mandate from Westminster for a referendum vote on Independence.
If their vision was right, or it was they offering the same as SNP, I'd still be voting yes, so this Independent vote is nothing to do with the political party in power in the Scottish parliament...
Which we have absolutely no place to decide
We decide on Scotland
it's not a case of "we don't like the Tories" as much as it's a case of the Tories are an irrelevance in Scotland
You started with your opinion that we are all the same, through history, media and lifestyle yet we are clearly drastically different at the level where it counts
As for the scaremongering, we've gone from "going it alone" and being the outcast of the western world to now not even currently existing in the first place
But they haven't! And let's face it, in all likelihood, the Tories will be turfed out in 2 years time, once the SNP have lost their referendum which'll make that argument even weaker than it already is,
They haven't; Scotland has. The argument that it's all about the Tories, however, is another one you've just added in and then argued against - it's not about the Tories so much as about Scotland taking governmental responsibility for its own policies. If you are so confident that the SNP will lose, however, why are you so intent on spouting bile and throwing about false accusations?
Totally agree
It's been said a few times but a yes vote does not then turn Scotland into a one party state, infact in my opinion a yes vote would leave the SNP at a stage where they have achieved their reason for existing, it would surely mean the evolution of them as a party and quite possibly the breakup of the organisation into different factions
It would however mean that Scottish Labour and even the Scottish Tories could focus on Scottish matters without pressure or ties to Westminster
Exactly, so not Scotland's problem....why would I worry about a region in England when it is they that had the vote for their constituent.....
Ditto, that's democracy for Scotland and her people.
I'm not saying we should worry about it, I just personally find it bizarre why we should secede just because we don't like the party in power in government, when there's no other place in the world, let alone Britain, that uses that sort of reasoning for seceding from a state
Because that is not the reason for secession. You just seem to think it is.
It's nothing to do with not liking any political party or seceding. It's what is best for Scotland as a Country, her people etc.
The Independence card is on the table and I'm taking it for many reasons, each person to their own reason as that card will never, ever be put on that table again if we remain the status quo. Things will only get worse..
I think there are a number of compelling arguments for staying in the UK. I don't dispute that Scotland could 'stand on her own two feet' *cringe*, but I haven't seen or heard anything from any politician, business leader or academic to convince me that Scots would be better off economically, socially or culturally. I look forward to reading the SNP's White Paper later this year.
That's because we're not getting the air time or media press coverage, only the views of the opposition and how they mock the Independence debate. Yet they say we're better together....
If the SNP made a unarguable compellingly good case for independence and won as a result of that, then fair enough I would accept that they did well and deserved to win. However they're clearly struggling to do so, so it's a case of accuse those who oppose us of being anti-Scottish and try and portray the whole thing as poor wee Scotland being weighed down by big bad Tory England in the hope it'll stir up what is essentially the hate vote (Joan McAlpine anyone) Let's face it, the SNP's majority was more a case of disenchantment with the mainstream parties rather than about separation, you mustered a mere 5,000 at your Independence Rally in Edinburgh last September, compared to the 1 million souls who turned out in Catalonia a year or so ago, you've got to do better than that!!
Except that hasn't happened, has it? You're just making more stuff up to bolster your own anti-SNP stance. No one has accused you of being anti-Scottish, but it seems to suit your agenda to pretend that's the case. Ultimately, the case for independence hinges on whether or not your believe an internal Scottish parliament in full charge of Scottish affairs is better than Westminster rule and Scottish parties which have divided interests. For what it's worth, I've never voted SNP myself, but I do believe in independence - the SNP are a means to an end. Your claim that their campaign relies on an image of 'poor wee Scotland' suggests how little you actually know about it. From what I've seen, the case has been built on an image of Scotland's potential strength in economic, cultural and political terms. Might I suggest that the notion of 'poor wee Scotland' results from a not particularly small chip on your own shoulder?
It's also evident that you've made up your mind entirely on the issue - hence the vitriolic attacks and false accusations which seem to be your stock in trade.
So what is an arguable compelling good case for Independence in your mind? Can I ask the same question for to remain the Status quo that is arguably compelling without the emotion?
Who says they're struggling, the media hype?
I'm not making it up, it's true. Didn't you hear Joan McAlpine's comments in a newspaper that the Union as it stands was her idea of "a talented young woman being the victim of domestic abuse by a domineering husband" Sorry but if that's not an attempt to whip up ill-feeling then I don't know what is. I myself haven't personally been told to my face that I'm anti-Scottish, but listening to the debate it would seem that's what Nats actually think of all those who are against their views, hence why I'm not awfully fond of the idea of giving them what they want
How on earth does her opinion equate to you (and others, presumably) being called 'anti-Scottish'? It's not my favoured analogy, but the 'married couple' is quite commonly invoked by both sides. In McAlpine's case, it was used to try and win support, which one might expect her to do, just as the Unionists try and win support for the UK with their 'better together' rhetoric. Does that constitute an attempt to whip up anti-SNP feeling? It seems to have worked in your case. At any rate, I still fail to see how her analogy calls anyone anti-Scottish. The only anti-Scottish attitudes I've seen have been from those who want to evict Scotland (and yes, the papers have printed polls which suggest that, if it were up to England, they'd kick us out rather than let us jump).
If it was proven that it would transform Scotland into a country that was the envy of the world then yes that would be a good case, but recently some stats recently showed that we'd be £1 worse off, which is essentially no difference at all, so why vote for something which is going to make no difference?
That is a short-term, financial difference only. What about the difference in social policy, the prioritisation of Scotland's interests rather than the UK's and long-term finances?
She has called the SNP's political opponents that in the past. Also If they were serious about creating this friendly, welcoming country where "we're a' Jock Tamson's bairns" then they'd condemn her comments as being totally unrepresentative of the party and their vision for what Scotland should be like, rather than try to defend her.