And we do. Three iPads, two iPhone 6+ and two iMacs. We love them.
Two iPads. Two MacBook pros. A MacBook Air. And an iPhone 6 Plus here. Love them, too. And not troubled at all by Panorama's grubby bit of pre-Christmas sh*t-stirring.
It would appear that at least 3 people commenting on the program either didn't watch it or chose to ignore the bits that didn't fit in with their opinion.
As someone who works in TV and am daily surrounded by Apple products - not all of them my own - at the almost exclusion of all other brands, I was merely commenting on the hypocrisy of making the programme at all.
Technology can be cheap, Apple stuff generally isn't. What you've got to ask yourself is would you rather the money goes to the shareholders or the poor people that manufacture the products.
I don't have to ask myself anything of the sort. I go into the Apple Store and I buy the stuff I want. I'm not interested in, or troubled by, what happens to my money after that.
I wouldn't buy Apple because it's overpriced tat aimed at those who must have the latest line in tat as soon as it's in their nearest tat shop... but then my phone lives in the drawer, and I don't see the appeal of those slidey slate things. I yearn for the days of speccies and walkmans. I even have a basic laptop, does what I need it to, no point having something that does things I don't need. It's all brainwashing, "buy this, and next week this will be out of date, but don't worry you can buy that too, and when that is out of date a week later...".
How do you know if it's 'tat' when, by your own admission, your phone lives in a drawer and, I would therefore assume, you're not that much into technology? I have used android but was converted to Apple when I had an iPhone for work. Within days, I'd traded in my htc for the iPhone 5. My emails, Facebook, Internet all get through effortlessly, whereas I regularly hear my family, friends and colleagues complaining that their non-Apple tablets/phones 'don't work'. I'm no so-called 'iSheep' - I was very anti-Apple, but that was before I actually tried their products which, far from being 'tat', are very slick and work beautifully.
Quite why Apple are being singled out when other manufacturers are as bad in their ethics, I don't know - surely they ALL have a social responsibility?
Why are you suggesting that I think Samsung would be OK if they do similar ??
Because they ARE doing similar. How is that bowl full of denial this morning? They're doing exactly the same. As is every other major electronics manufacturer. But there's not as much clickbait/publicity in holding them to account. Some people seem to think that because Apple get all the public brow-beating it's somehow their fault. That's massively arse-backwards. As I say, all picking Apple does is give all the others a free pass. We should be shouting at all of them, but we don't, not because of prejudice one way or the other but because the media doesn't actually care at all about chinese workers, it's just after the story that gets the best viewing figures. So we all get told 'Oooh, look how terrible Apple is.' While every other company carries on doing the same things with no bad publicity at all.
What I'm railing about is people being led by the nose by the media and therefore things not getting any better for the vast majority of Chinese workers who don't work for a company that makes kit with an Apple logo on it.
(No Samsung phones in my household either by the way)
It doesn't matter, that's exactly my point. If you have a Sony TV, if you have an LG DVR, if you have basically any electronic kit at all, you're part of the problem not part of the solution. And sitting on some high horse over Apple is actually making naff all difference.
I'm as bad as everyone else - i have a sharp TV, I have a Sony phone. But I seem to be the only one that doesn't seem to think that somehow I'm better than the next guy whose equivalent kit is made by other company X. Wake up, for pity's sake.
How do you know if it's 'tat' when, by your own admission, your phone lives in a drawer and, I would therefore assume, you're not that much into technology? I have used android but was converted to Apple when I had an iPhone for work. Within days, I'd traded in my htc for the iPhone 5. My emails, Facebook, Internet all get through effortlessly, whereas I regularly hear my family, friends and colleagues complaining that their non-Apple tablets/phones 'don't work'. I'm no so-called 'iSheep' - I was very anti-Apple, but that was before I actually tried their products which, far from being 'tat', are very slick and work beautifully.
Quite why Apple are being singled out when other manufacturers are as bad in their ethics, I don't know - surely they ALL have a social responsibility?
Ahhhh..... The old "they just work" argument .... A quick google search always dismisses that one
If you like apple products then fine, just be aware of exactly what goes into making them. You aren't buying top spec components and production - in fact, based on the profit margin taken by apple you are buying mid-spec stuff. If that, along with the suffering that is caused in the production of them, "floats your boat" then that's all well and good
Does apple need to have so much cash in the bank whilst factories are putting up suicide nets ? Personally I would say they don't. If you have an argument that makes you feel better about purchasing these items then that's your choice.
They will still sell by the bucket load, but then again so do cigarettes and cheap vodka.
Because they ARE doing similar. How is that bowl full of denial this morning? They're doing exactly the same. As is every other major electronics manufacturer. But there's not as much clickbait/publicity in holding them to account. Some people seem to think that because Apple get all the public brow-beating it's somehow their fault. That's massively arse-backwards. As I say, all picking Apple does is give all the others a free pass. We should be shouting at all of them, but we don't, not because of prejudice one way or the other but because the media doesn't actually care at all about chinese workers, it's just after the story that gets the best viewing figures. So we all get told 'Oooh, look how terrible Apple is.' While every other company carries on doing the same things with no bad publicity at all.
What I'm railing about is people being led by the nose by the media and therefore things not getting any better for the vast majority of Chinese workers who don't work for a company that makes kit with an Apple logo on it.
It would be OK for someone else to carry on doing it provided Apple stopped?
It doesn't matter, that's exactly my point. If you have a Sony TV, if you have an LG DVR, if you have basically any electronic kit at all, you're part of the problem not part of the solution. And sitting on some high horse over Apple is actually making naff all difference.
I'm as bad as everyone else - i have a sharp TV, I have a Sony phone. But I seem to be the only one that doesn't seem to think that somehow I'm better than the next guy whose equivalent kit is made by other company X. Wake up, for pity's sake.
Jon
Wealthiest company in the world has no obligation to lead by example ? All companies should improve their working conditions. Should apple not bother because some other companies don't ?
Its OK to say you are improving things when actually you aren't ?
If you don't mind the misery and poverty that surrounds the production of your shiny hardware then that's 100% your choice.
No company should mistreat employees, and every effort should be made to improve conditions even if they are subcontractors.
However, these revelations should be treated as awareness to everyone and not some attack on a specific company.
I bet no one on this forum has a clue regarding the conditions of the factories that goods they buy come from, using ignorance as a excuse when it suits them.
No company should mistreat employees, and every effort should be made to improve conditions even if they are subcontractors.
However, these revelations should be treated as awareness to everyone and not some attack on a specific company.
I bet no one on this forum has a clue regarding the conditions of the factories that goods they buy come from, using ignorance as a excuse when it suits them.
For once we agree kidspud. Nobody should have to work in the conditions shown and described in the documentary last night regardless of what products they end up in. Companies should have a moral obligation to ensure this is the case. Sadly, for many, profit margin is more important than peoples lives.
For once we agree kidspud. Nobody should have to work in the conditions shown and described in the documentary last night regardless of what products they end up in. Companies should have a moral obligation to ensure this is the case. Sadly, for many, profit margin is more important than peoples lives.
We half agree;-) I believe Apple have a responsibility, however there is a fine line when Apple would have to end up owning and running its subcontractors in order to constantly keep an eye on them. The best a company like Apple can do, is set standards and audit, both of which I believe are in place. However, that does not stop the actual owners from pushing the limits to increase their profits.
I did some work a few years ago with a company in India, and experienced this exact problem.
Watched all of it. Pathetic. But nothing that we don't expect from Panorama and the BBC ... find a sad situation then find a big successful company who doesn't even employ them to blame.
And it's people with your attitude that enable such appalling treatment. Do you get some sort of kick out of this?
The point here is that Apple isn't Primark - piling high and selling cheap. It piles low, and sells very expensively indeed. Premium product made in very un-premium facilities. They have no conscience whatsoever.
It's an important issue that does need highlighting and the footage taken inside the factory was terrible.
However, the moment the reporter started investigating tin mining and showing 'poor little kiddies' working there it moved into hype territory.
Maybe if it had been a documentary on the effects of the entire technology production industry on these countries, rather than focusing on on company it would have made more sense. After all, pretty well all of the major tech giants use these suppliers.
Instead it came across that they were trying to pad the show out by finding as many tenuous links between Apple and awful things as they could.
And it's people with your attitude that enable such appalling treatment. Do you get some sort of kick out of this?
The point here is that Apple isn't Primark - piling high and selling cheap. It piles low, and sells very expensively indeed. Premium product made in very un-premium facilities. They have no conscience whatsoever.
What does the end cost of the product have to do with anything? Is it ok for primark to exploit because they sell cheap goods?
The point here is that Apple isn't Primark - piling high and selling cheap. It piles low, and sells very expensively indeed. Premium product made in very un-premium facilities. They have no conscience whatsoever.
You appear to have made the fundamental mistake of linking a company's profit margins with the morality of exploiting it's (directly or indirectly employed) workers. The level of exploitation is independent of a company's success and should be judged on it's own merits: not in comparison to the cost of it's products - that doesn't help the workers one little bit.
Samsung are a large faceless conglomerate*. Apple likes to present itself as a cuddly touchy-feely big happy family type of outfit.
* - that doesn't excuse Samsung from blame if they or their suppliers are working under the same conditions.
Exactly. This seems to be the point the Apple fans are missing. All exploitation is awful and any highlighting is good. But Apple specifically are marketed as a luxury and exclusive brand so the reality of the working conditions is somehow more shocking.
Samsung are a large faceless conglomerate*. Apple likes to present itself as a cuddly touchy-feely big happy family type of outfit.
* - that doesn't excuse Samsung from blame if they or their suppliers are working under the same conditions.
One thing you should be happy about, Samsungs marketing clearly has not had any impact on you:) I don't think they spend all that marketing budget and sponsorship so that people think of them as a faceless conglomerate
Exactly. This seems to be the point the Apple fans are missing. All exploitation is awful and any highlighting is good. But Apple specifically are marketed as a luxury and exclusive brand so the reality of the working conditions is somehow more shocking.
I'm not sure "Apple Fans" are missing anything. In fact, quite the reverse. It appears that some think that bad working conditions are unacceptable because it is Apple, but don't seem to want to apply the same principles to other companies.
I found that documentary pretty haunting, luckily we have never liked Apple and don't have any of their products in our house otherwise i'd feel a bit weirded out by them!
I do wish there was some sort of database where people can check who supplies the parts and manufacturing for all the companies we buy stuff from because it worries me not knowing if the tin in my Motorola phone was mined by a kid or adult that may well be dead in a landslide by now :-( Thing is it damages our own economies by not having stuff manufactured ethically here instead of abroad in squalid conditions.
The truth is that practically every item in your home, from consumer electronics to your hairbrush, probably involved someone being badly exploited somewhere along the line.
Companies are always interested in cutting costs to make their products more competitively priced and their product margins bigger. That means getting more out of factory workers, less favourable working conditions, etc.
I wouldn't buy Apple because it's overpriced tat aimed at those who must have the latest line in tat as soon as it's in their nearest tat shop... but then my phone lives in the drawer, and I don't see the appeal of those slidey slate things. I yearn for the days of speccies and walkmans. I even have a basic laptop, does what I need it to, no point having something that does things I don't need. It's all brainwashing, "buy this, and next week this will be out of date, but don't worry you can buy that too, and when that is out of date a week later...".
I'm happy for you that your computer meets your needs but to assume that anything faster with more features owned by anybody else has only been bought because of "brainwashing".
As for walkmans, etc, well, if that's your cup of tea then knock yourself out. There are probably plenty of them out there going for nothing more than a pound or two in car boot sales and on eBay (if that's not too futuristic for you) but most of us would be happier using devices that are smaller, lighter, more flexible and (in everyday use, at least) more reliable.
One thing you should be happy about, Samsungs marketing clearly has not had any impact on you:) I don't think they spend all that marketing budget and sponsorship so that people think of them as a faceless conglomerate
If I've seen any Samsung publicity recently I can't remember it, although I generally don't watch adverts. Although I do own a Samsung tablet - a spur of the moment purchase at Heathrow Airport. I think I'd read somewhere that their tablets were well thought of, and it was certainly cheaper and more versatile than the iPad mini.
If I've seen any Samsung publicity recently I can't remember it, although I generally don't watch adverts. Although I do own a Samsung tablet - a spur of the moment purchase at Heathrow Airport. I think I'd read somewhere that their tablets were well thought of, and it was certainly cheaper and more versatile than the iPad mini.
i take that back, you clearly did fall for marketing ;-)
Ahhhh..... The old "they just work" argument .... A quick google search always dismisses that one If you like apple products then fine, just be aware of exactly what goes into making them. You aren't buying top spec components and production - in fact, based on the profit margin taken by apple you are buying mid-spec stuff. If that, along with the suffering that is caused in the production of them, "floats your boat" then that's all well and good
Does apple need to have so much cash in the bank whilst factories are putting up suicide nets ? Personally I would say they don't. If you have an argument that makes you feel better about purchasing these items then that's your choice.
They will still sell by the bucket load, but then again so do cigarettes and cheap vodka.
And 3 years problem-free use of my iPhone and 1 year of my iPad mini proves it to me, so why do I need to Google it? Compared to my frustration with my previous htc and my friends' frustrations with their (generally Samsung) phones and tablets, I'll very happily stick with Apple, thanks.
Watched all of it. Pathetic. But nothing that we don't expect from Panorama and the BBC ... find a sad situation then find a big successful company who doesn't even employ them to blame.
So if Apple doesn't "even" employ them why do they have this on the website?
Comments
Two iPads. Two MacBook pros. A MacBook Air. And an iPhone 6 Plus here. Love them, too. And not troubled at all by Panorama's grubby bit of pre-Christmas sh*t-stirring.
As someone who works in TV and am daily surrounded by Apple products - not all of them my own - at the almost exclusion of all other brands, I was merely commenting on the hypocrisy of making the programme at all.
I don't have to ask myself anything of the sort. I go into the Apple Store and I buy the stuff I want. I'm not interested in, or troubled by, what happens to my money after that.
How do you know if it's 'tat' when, by your own admission, your phone lives in a drawer and, I would therefore assume, you're not that much into technology? I have used android but was converted to Apple when I had an iPhone for work. Within days, I'd traded in my htc for the iPhone 5. My emails, Facebook, Internet all get through effortlessly, whereas I regularly hear my family, friends and colleagues complaining that their non-Apple tablets/phones 'don't work'. I'm no so-called 'iSheep' - I was very anti-Apple, but that was before I actually tried their products which, far from being 'tat', are very slick and work beautifully.
Quite why Apple are being singled out when other manufacturers are as bad in their ethics, I don't know - surely they ALL have a social responsibility?
What I'm railing about is people being led by the nose by the media and therefore things not getting any better for the vast majority of Chinese workers who don't work for a company that makes kit with an Apple logo on it.
It would be OK for someone else to carry on doing it provided Apple stopped?
It doesn't matter, that's exactly my point. If you have a Sony TV, if you have an LG DVR, if you have basically any electronic kit at all, you're part of the problem not part of the solution. And sitting on some high horse over Apple is actually making naff all difference.
I'm as bad as everyone else - i have a sharp TV, I have a Sony phone. But I seem to be the only one that doesn't seem to think that somehow I'm better than the next guy whose equivalent kit is made by other company X. Wake up, for pity's sake.
Jon
Ahhhh..... The old "they just work" argument .... A quick google search always dismisses that one
If you like apple products then fine, just be aware of exactly what goes into making them. You aren't buying top spec components and production - in fact, based on the profit margin taken by apple you are buying mid-spec stuff. If that, along with the suffering that is caused in the production of them, "floats your boat" then that's all well and good
Does apple need to have so much cash in the bank whilst factories are putting up suicide nets ? Personally I would say they don't. If you have an argument that makes you feel better about purchasing these items then that's your choice.
They will still sell by the bucket load, but then again so do cigarettes and cheap vodka.
Wealthiest company in the world has no obligation to lead by example ? All companies should improve their working conditions. Should apple not bother because some other companies don't ?
Its OK to say you are improving things when actually you aren't ?
If you don't mind the misery and poverty that surrounds the production of your shiny hardware then that's 100% your choice.
However, these revelations should be treated as awareness to everyone and not some attack on a specific company.
I bet no one on this forum has a clue regarding the conditions of the factories that goods they buy come from, using ignorance as a excuse when it suits them.
For once we agree kidspud. Nobody should have to work in the conditions shown and described in the documentary last night regardless of what products they end up in. Companies should have a moral obligation to ensure this is the case. Sadly, for many, profit margin is more important than peoples lives.
We half agree;-) I believe Apple have a responsibility, however there is a fine line when Apple would have to end up owning and running its subcontractors in order to constantly keep an eye on them. The best a company like Apple can do, is set standards and audit, both of which I believe are in place. However, that does not stop the actual owners from pushing the limits to increase their profits.
I did some work a few years ago with a company in India, and experienced this exact problem.
And it's people with your attitude that enable such appalling treatment. Do you get some sort of kick out of this?
The point here is that Apple isn't Primark - piling high and selling cheap. It piles low, and sells very expensively indeed. Premium product made in very un-premium facilities. They have no conscience whatsoever.
However, the moment the reporter started investigating tin mining and showing 'poor little kiddies' working there it moved into hype territory.
Maybe if it had been a documentary on the effects of the entire technology production industry on these countries, rather than focusing on on company it would have made more sense. After all, pretty well all of the major tech giants use these suppliers.
Instead it came across that they were trying to pad the show out by finding as many tenuous links between Apple and awful things as they could.
What does the end cost of the product have to do with anything? Is it ok for primark to exploit because they sell cheap goods?
You appear to have made the fundamental mistake of linking a company's profit margins with the morality of exploiting it's (directly or indirectly employed) workers. The level of exploitation is independent of a company's success and should be judged on it's own merits: not in comparison to the cost of it's products - that doesn't help the workers one little bit.
Samsung are a large faceless conglomerate*. Apple likes to present itself as a cuddly touchy-feely big happy family type of outfit.
* - that doesn't excuse Samsung from blame if they or their suppliers are working under the same conditions.
Exactly. This seems to be the point the Apple fans are missing. All exploitation is awful and any highlighting is good. But Apple specifically are marketed as a luxury and exclusive brand so the reality of the working conditions is somehow more shocking.
One thing you should be happy about, Samsungs marketing clearly has not had any impact on you:) I don't think they spend all that marketing budget and sponsorship so that people think of them as a faceless conglomerate
I'm not sure "Apple Fans" are missing anything. In fact, quite the reverse. It appears that some think that bad working conditions are unacceptable because it is Apple, but don't seem to want to apply the same principles to other companies.
The truth is that practically every item in your home, from consumer electronics to your hairbrush, probably involved someone being badly exploited somewhere along the line.
Companies are always interested in cutting costs to make their products more competitively priced and their product margins bigger. That means getting more out of factory workers, less favourable working conditions, etc.
I'm happy for you that your computer meets your needs but to assume that anything faster with more features owned by anybody else has only been bought because of "brainwashing".
As for walkmans, etc, well, if that's your cup of tea then knock yourself out. There are probably plenty of them out there going for nothing more than a pound or two in car boot sales and on eBay (if that's not too futuristic for you) but most of us would be happier using devices that are smaller, lighter, more flexible and (in everyday use, at least) more reliable.
If I've seen any Samsung publicity recently I can't remember it, although I generally don't watch adverts. Although I do own a Samsung tablet - a spur of the moment purchase at Heathrow Airport. I think I'd read somewhere that their tablets were well thought of, and it was certainly cheaper and more versatile than the iPad mini.
i take that back, you clearly did fall for marketing ;-)
And 3 years problem-free use of my iPhone and 1 year of my iPad mini proves it to me, so why do I need to Google it? Compared to my frustration with my previous htc and my friends' frustrations with their (generally Samsung) phones and tablets, I'll very happily stick with Apple, thanks.
So if Apple doesn't "even" employ them why do they have this on the website?
http://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/
Including statements like "Suppliers must treat workers fairly and ethically at all times".
Were the workers in the program you watched treated fairly and ethically at all times?